Danneaux Project: ExtraWheel trailer as do-all cargo, charging, cam solution

[John Saxby]

Dan,

Extrawheel-as-windmill

You know, of course, that this, ah, completely inverts the state of being "wind-bound", until now the bane of all canoeists?  :-)

[Danneaux]

Hi Richard!

The Extrawheel Project is far from dead, just resting at the moment.

Extrawheel kindly sent me two more replacement quick-release hitches, which I am in-process of testing now. They have much-improved tolerances and what appears to be a solid stop.

One problem I ran into using the Extrawheel on the extremely rough terrain where I have used it is a conflict between the attachment forks (standard and long) and my SKS P55 rear mudguard. When the Extrawheel bounced enthusiastically or the terrain was such the bike and trailer formed a \/, the trailer fork fouled the 'guard attachment bolts and broke the 'guard itself. I ordered a replacement set (USD$100 delivered...shipping costs ensured a damage-free delivery) from SJS Cycles and it is awaiting installation pending further testing. Still working on this issue; this would not be a problem if the Extrawheel was used in the same conditions on a bike with no rear mudguard.

As for the vane material, I've now concluded my basic materials testing using a number of flexible membranes including some made by Goodyear. The hot ticket for spoke vanes has so far proven to be urethane-backed lycra (same material commonly used in helmet covers), but it is very hard to obtain a regular supply. My regular fabrics supplier (The RainShed: http://www.therainshed.com/ ) doesn't always carry it. Absent the urethane-backed stuff, regular lycra will do, though the 8.5oz/yd stuff has proven most durable for impermeable while retaining the other needed qualities.

The material is only half the battle; the shape is important in a static state and as a chord under wind-load...you want "scoopage" but not to excess. Catenary cuts help here, aided by the wedge shape of the spoke lacings. Sufficient "capture" of the wind is critical for efficiency.

The reason why vane shape is so important is the nature of the dynohub's higher initial starting torque. It requires a boost to start and once running does fine. It is self-starting if the wind is brisk or steady, but it can be an issue in very gentle breezes or if the wind waxes and wanes in the night. Wind direction can change, so the vanes also need to capture from either side. If you try this, do use caution in propping the inverted bike or trailer. Lateral wind-loads on the vaned wheels could cause the lot to turn turtle unless solidly braced with a Click-Stand, stick, or other means.

Just as important is the means for attachment. The large hooks from hook-and-eye sets proved idea for quick attachment and release from the spokes, but they (like all methods that are spoke-based and temporary or non-adhesive) allow creep toward the hub under load, so a tether 'round the tire is necessary as well. It is not as complicated or time-consuming as it sounds to attach the vanes; the lot can be done in about two minutes from start to finish. I'm refining the design so it will remain lightweight, pack small, and deploy or store quickly. Nearly there.

The project continues apace at DanneauxLabs.

A quick aside: do you know when the Extrawheel was last updated in respect to quality of build, fittings and paint?

Yes, as I recall, except for remaining old stock at vendors, all Extrawheel Voyager trailers sold new in 2012 have the new design. The key word to look for is "Voyager".

-  -  -  -  -

After extensive testing, I can say having access to the equivalent of another bikes'worth of dynocharging capacity is a dream come true, especially so when it operates while I'm sleeping!

All the best,

Dan.

[StuntPilot]

Interesting! Thanks for the update!

I have been looking for the vane material you mentioned and having trouble finding it over here. Thanks for this post - I am intrigued! Have you considered a 'velcro' arrangement? (or is that what you call 'hook-and-eye'?)

One problem I ran into using the Extrawheel on the extremely rough terrain where I have used it is a conflict between the attachment forks (standard and long) and my SKS P55 rear mudguard. When the Extrawheel bounced enthusiastically or the terrain was such the bike and trailer formed a \/, the trailer fork fouled the 'guard attachment bolts and broke the 'guard itself.

I am surprised by this. Even with the extended long attachment bar I would have thought it would be sufficient for most off-road situations. You said that you had cycled across a ploughed field to test the ExtraWheel? Are you sure you were not riding perpendicular to some really big furrows for this to happen?  

[rifraf]

Hi Dan,
my wallet was finally in a position for me to order my Extrawheel trailer.

I grabbed their deal with the Ortlieb rear roller classics in yellow matching my Ogres panniers.

To get free postage I had to grab some other bits and bobs so ordered the upper rack and its optional Ortlieb drybag. I added a couple of spare sets of the rubber seals (described as protective caps), a medium Ortlieb first aid kit and Ortlieb shower valve, Ortlieb water sack and a quick release.

I got the 29+ trailer legs and some trailer nuts of 10x1 which I think is the correct size for the Ogres frame holes on the dropouts.  The spare QR was just in case I ever wish to use it with another bike.

Next pay I'll do a bike24 order and get the trailer an E-Werk and probably a Mondial tire to match whats on the bike, as well as spare tubes and sundries.

I'm hoping it'll be ready to trial whilst enjoying  a Western Australia south coast tour this coming mid March.

How goes your experiments with your trailer.
All foibles ironed out now?

[rifraf]

Well Extrawheel trailer with Ortlieb Rear Roller Classics, have hit Sydney seven days after ordering them.
This is good going coming from Poland (Europe) where generally the postage is fairly pedestrian as is the US.
I imagine another week now to get from New South Wales to over to Western Australia.
My bike24.net order for E-werk has been made and will be slowly making its way from Germany.
I included in the order a couple of Schwalbe Mondials in 50-622 which are 700c x 2.00.
They are folding tires, with one for the trailer (matching the Ogres wheels/tires) and one folding for a spare with three tubes to match.
I always like to carry two tubes and a folding tire when I tour.
I took the opportunity to order an oil change for my Rohloff, though at only 500km, it has a way to go before its due for its first oil change.

[Danneaux]

Hi Rif'!

All congratulations on the arrival of your Extrawheel and the order for other things on the way. I found EW's shipping to be surprisingly fast, as well. Nicely packed, too. The finish and frame build quality on mine was equal to that on a quality bicycle frame.

How goes your experiments with your trailer.
All foibles ironed out now?

As a charging and camera platform, the trailer has met all expectations. The extra charging capacity is just what I needed and works well for my requirements.

As for the other foibles...

Being winter here, I haven't used the trailer much recently. At last use, I still had the problem with the trailer fork (tongue) fouling the lower mudguard stay bolts on my rear 'guard on both the Nomad and my 700C-wheeled bikes in certain circumstances. If the fork came straight back parallel to the bike's rear wheel, I wouldn't have the problem, which comes in two instances:

1) When there is a sharp break in terrain where the rear wheel of the bike drops sharply below both the trailer wheel and bicycle's front wheel. I don't envision it occurring with any usual paved or gravel road use. Riding off a curb (which I don't do) might have the same effect.

2) On really rough roads and truly off-road, I found the trailer could occasionally bounce high enough for the fork to hit the mudguard stays. I wouldn't have thought it possible if it hadn't happened to me; other users don't seem to be affected similarly.

Contact between trailer and 'stay bolts eventually cracked my mudguard, requiring an expensive replacement.

The two replacement quick-release hitches Extrawheel kindly sent me have far tighter tolerances than the original that came with the trailer or the ones I purchased as extras. I do wish they had knurled contact faces. It is not an issue when used with vertical dropouts, but remains problematic on my bikes with ramped dropouts.

Despite packing my load of water low and forward in the panniers, the Extrawheel did sometimes wiggle-woggle on me. It wasn't a shimmy per se, but more like a tail-wagging-the-dog effect I could feel through the Nomad's frame. It was not consistent or deliberately repeatable.

I still like the Extrawheel trailer very much, but I need a solution to prevent it contacting the mudguard and I also need to suss out the source of the occasional handling problem. I look forward to your ride reports with it, Rif' and wish you all the best. If your experience is like the majority, I think you'll be well pleased.

Best,

Dan.

[rifraf]

Hi Dan,
with regards to the wiggle woggle, you might find interesting:
http://www.threewheeling.net/extrawheel-voyager-trailer/

I'd also point you at a few comments made in the Australian Cycling Forums which you've seen.
In the Extrawheel thread; fellow Thorn Cycling Forum member has made a couple of  pertinent comments on his experiences with packing lighter and bulkier items on the trailer and heavier ones in the bikes rear panniers which I'm going to take on board.

http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46034

I found them interesting and initially confronting as I bought the trailer mainly as a water hauler in my initial picturing of its use with its charging as a secondary benefit.

However it didnt take me too long to realise, I'd only have to make an adjustment to my strategy by putting my waterbags in the bikes rear panniers adding what would have gone in there, to my trailer.
A benefit of this is less worry about water leaks in the place I wanted to keep my laptop and camera gear.

I just have to hope I spec'd my rear bike wheel strong enough going with the Rohloff 36 spoke optioned hub and Sapim CX-Rays (which aren't usually spec'd for a touring machine).

I went with the Sapims and Dyad rims in an attempt to counter balance the over all weight of the heavy Surly frame, hub gearing and dynamo hub.
I was told the Rohloff combined with Alpine 3's wasnt an option due to the thickness of the Alpines at their elbow butting (2.3mm?)

The bikes wheels now have over 500km's on them with no signs yet of any issue.
I'm hoping my two 10 liter Ortlieb waterbags wont be the straw that broke the camels back.

I wont be carrying them willy nilly but only as needed but thats fairly likely for any tours of duration here in Western Australia.

Once the trailers up and running and been tested as up to the job, I'll be back in touch to talk about the "sails" or windcatchers you've made up to make your wheel spin when the trailers inverted upside down.
I really like the idea and see the potential for charging whilst immobile and sleeping.

[rifraf]

The trailer arrived safely.
I found out the hard way that 2 inch tyres (Mondial) dont fit under the mudguard which had to be removed.
I've temporarily utilised a Big Apple of 2.35x700c.
I made the mistake of getting the standard  sized QR.
I need an over sized trailer nut skewer.
I cant try out the trailer until I reorder and receive one
E-werk on its way from Germanys bike24.net with some Rohloff oil and tyres & tubes

[Danneaux]

Hi Rif'!

Just delighted to see you Extrawheel has arrived and is looking good, especially with the colorful bags. It looks good!

Boy, that fat-tired 700C wheel really fills up the space. I *think* you could use a sectioned mudguard rearward of the rack mount and use the Ortlieb sausage roll on the rack to achieve coverage over the tire at that point. Just a thought if you still need coverage with the larger-section tire.

I made the mistake of getting the standard  sized QR.

Oh, what frustration! So near and yet so far. I'm sorry. It must be agonizing to have it so close to ready but not. 'Hope the replacement arrives soon for you.

Reaching one post further back, you said...

with regards to the wiggle woggle, you might find interesting:
http://www.threewheeling.net/extrawheel-voyager-trailer/

I really do find this interesting, Rif'! I was never able to pin down the intermittent woggle on mine, and look forward to trying it again before I replace the Nomad's cracked rear 'guard (the spare sits at the ready, but no use replacing it till I try the trailer again else I risk another breakage). My woggle was inconsistent, but I can surely see what the threewheeling folks were up against, and it sounds as if they tried all the logical solutions. I also adjusted my fork tension from spot-on to slightly loose and a bit tight and noticed no difference in behavior -- it was just too inconsistent to nail down.

I'm also very interested in the packing recommendations. Like you, I put a 10l MSR Dromedary in each trailer-mounted pannier and like you, this was a primary reason for the purchase (desert touring). I'll try swapping the water to the bike's panniers and see f more solid contents make a difference wrt trailer handling. I'd love to try it tomorrow, but the weather isn't very conducive to good data collection at the moment.

If you do put the MSR Dromedaries in your bags, let me add the caution that I found water will express itself through the walls of the bag over time and rough roads. There was no liquid, rather it was more of a misting or light weeping that resulted in humid conditions inside the Ortliebs.

I'm very much looking forward to how the lot works for you and wish you all the best in your own development. I found the e-Werk mounted very nicely on the mudguard once I detached the original mounting bracket and reused the screw. If the fat 700C tires prevent that mounting for you, there are still options for mounting it to the trailer's "chainstay" using the included rubber mounting bands, just ahead of the pannier mounts.

As for the wind vanes, my prototypes have really worked well. I have some urethane-coated lycra on backorder that should be just the ticket for detachable vanes (you wouldn't want them while traveling, only while at rest in camp). The wheel requires a bit of extra effort to spin from rest, but requires very little wind thereafter. I found vanes on every "V" were just about ideal for self-starting in low wind, yet allowed sufficient pass-through to keep the wheel spinning nicely at higher velocities.

Best,

Dan.

[il padrone]

Reaching one post further back, you said...I really do find this interesting, Rif'! I was never able to pin down the intermittent woggle on mine, and look forward to trying it again before I replace the Nomad's cracked rear 'guard (the spare sits at the ready, but no use replacing it till I try the trailer again else I risk another breakage). My woggle was inconsistent, but I can surely see what the threewheeling folks were up against, and it sounds as if they tried all the logical solutions. I also adjusted my fork tension from spot-on to slightly loose and a bit tight and noticed no difference in behavior -- it was just too inconsistent to nail down.

I'm also very interested in the packing recommendations. Like you, I put a 10l MSR Dromedary in each trailer-mounted pannier and like you, this was a primary reason for the purchase (desert touring). I'll try swapping the water to the bike's panniers and see f more solid contents make a difference wrt trailer handling. I'd love to try it tomorrow, but the weather isn't very conducive to good data collection at the moment.

I found that some luggage load adjustments cured my wiggle. It was always something spurred by sealed roads with a rythmic undulation, and only at certain speeds (20-35kmh).

If you do put the MSR Dromedaries in your bags, let me add the caution that I found water will express itself through the walls of the bag over time and rough roads. There was no liquid, rather it was more of a misting or light weeping that resulted in humid conditions inside the Ortliebs.

I have not found this problem with the MSR, but on the other hand I found the Ortlieb 10L bag to be very fiddly as regards tightening the large cap. Frequently I opened the pannier to find a lot more than "misting". Usually just a cup of water, but it was a nuisance. I'd much prefer the MSR Dromedary.

I'm very much looking forward to how the lot works for you and wish you all the best in your own development. I found the e-Werk mounted very nicely on the mudguard once I detached the original mounting bracket and reused the screw. If the fat 700C tires prevent that mounting for you, there are still options for mounting it to the trailer's "chainstay" using the included rubber mounting bands, just ahead of the pannier mounts.

For mounting the E-werk, eventually the rubber band broke. A much more secure replacement has been the long cable-tie.

[rifraf]

I
For mounting the E-werk, eventually the rubber band broke. A much more secure replacement has been the long cable-tie.

Hi IP,
Thanks for the tip.
I shall utilise cable-ties on both the trailers E-werk and also use your suggestion for the bikes E-werk as well.
I've recently been looking at my Garmin Edge 800's rubber bands and surmised that they are degrading so am considering alternatives.
They are probably a year old now at least, so I'm not complaining about their longevity, but its an issue easily overlooked until the day you notice your unit missing off the bike.

[rifraf]

Well my Extrawheel Quick Release skewer has just arrived in the mail after appox 14 days from dispatch.
Pretty fair for European post but nailbiting just the same due to the frustration of having a new trailer and an inability to tow it anywhere.
No signs of textured ends Dan was hoping for by way of extra grip.
The Ogres are infamous for needing a very strong QR to stop their rear wheel moving in their horizontal dropouts so it'll be with some trepidation my initial trial tow takes place.
Busy day today, but if I get some time this evening I'll try to get a quick jaunt in on the bike/trailer combo and report in on my findings.

[Danneaux]

Good deal, Rif'; very much looking forward to your report.

I may mill some serrations on the back sides of my q/rs and see if that helps when used on a bike with ramped, horizontal dropouts. Dunno why they don't come with them.

Glad you at last have all you need for a test ride. I usually start with a bit of caution when trying something new, then add demands in layers so I can see how it goes and catch any problems early while they're small. Best of luck in the venture!

Best,

Dan.

[rifraf]

Extrawheel skewer gave up on its second usage.

The first attempt to tighten failed to stop the rear wheel from twisting in my Ogres dropouts.
In the second attempt the Nut end didnt fail but the "tightening" end of the QR pulled off the threaded rod to the detriment of the minimal thread that was evident.
I'm fairly unimpressed with the design with regards how much thread is holding on the QR end as well as the smooth contact surfaces supposed to hold the "nuts" to the dropouts.

I have had other issues.
Despite buying the "extra length" 29er forks, they didnt play well with my Gilles Berthoud stainless fenders or more to the point, the stays.
When attached, the trailer "forks" were approx 1 inch below the fender stays:





I've redrilled my stay holes upward to see if there is any improvement:



My plan is to now machine my tuggnuts, which align the rear wheel in the horizontal dropouts.
I need to remove the uppermost "bottle openers" to allow trailer nut attachment to the dropout provided 10x1mm frame holes.

[rifraf]

I'm a little further along in that Ive moved my Gilles Berthoud fender stays upward to allow for some trailer articulation.
I"m hoping a bit of red reflective tape will hide the previous stay attachment holes.



Trailer now has 13 inches of upward articulation




I've given up on Extrawheel QR skewers (and waiting on their email replies) so I've utilised my Ogres frame dropout holes to attach trailer nuts to after having dremeled off the upmost "bottle openers" from my "tug nuts" (these hold my wheel straight in horizontal dropouts).
I also had to dremel off the bolt heads I found to fit the somewhat rare (here locally) 10 x 1mm pitch bolts, as I couldn't get my hub into the dropouts otherwise.