Author Topic: supernova hub any good  (Read 6501 times)

jags

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supernova hub any good
« on: October 07, 2012, 05:31:30 PM »
was the supernova hub covered in a review by any of you lads (Dan or Hobbes) ;)
whats the verdict on it is the SON or Shimano better .
thanks,
jags.

Danneaux

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Re: supernova hub any good
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2012, 07:49:52 PM »
Hi jags!

You may wish to look at these reviews and discussions of the hub:
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/supernova-infinity-dynamo-hubs-first-look-31130/
http://road.cc/content/review/56557-supernova-infinity-8-dynamo-hub
It has been well-discussed over at BNA (Bike Net Australia) with input offered by our own Pete (Il Padrone):
http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=47808

The hub has an on/off drag-reduction feature that works similarly in concept to that of Shutter Precision's clutch-equipped hub: http://www.sp-dynamo.com/ in that you can choose to have it free-running /or/producing electricity/drag.
One difference is the Supernova uses a ring-magnet setup instead of a more conventional "claw-type" flux collector.

The Supernova hub has been well-reviewed and if it is like their other products, is likely superbly made. They tout gold-plated connectors and a forged shell with very well-sealed bearings, comes in pretty anodized colors, and will take a disc brake if needed. They claim high output at low speeds but I have not seen an y comparative or objective test data. There are a couple models (Infinity 8, Infinity S), so read carefully to choose the best option for your needs. The Infinity 8 comes with a clutch, but is only available in 32 holes. The Infinity S lacks the clutch but also is available only in 32 holes, so you're out of luck for either if you need 36 holes to match a rim of the same number.

I think -- especially given the cost -- I would again choose a SON28 for my own needs which tend toward more extreme environments where I prefer the hard-anodized surface finish and cartridge bearings with seals it offers. I can't speak for Andre, but in the past, he has made a very good good case for the Shimano for all more ordinary use, where the bearings are user-serviceable and a very good service life can be expected at a more modest price -- it is a very good value for the money. From all I can see, this does come at the expense of slightly more drag than the comparable SON units, but exactly how much is a matter of contention, as figures vary. I don't have a Shimano unit at hand to run comparison tests at present.

The Supernova and other clutch-type dynohubs seem to be me a bit of a solution in search of a problem. The drag in a SON28 Klassik (cylinder-hub design) is very minor -- I have read it compared (in 'Merkin units of measurement) to a 1ft climb every mile when off, a 7ft climb every mile when under load. That isn't much. The *new* SON28 (ball-hub design) is far less by my reckoning -- the hub spins very freely. Yes, the magnets make it hard to spin the axle and make it appear rough-running to finger pressure, but in practice, the repulsion-propulsion of the magnets largely canel out at speed, and the wheel spins very nicely on the bike. I didn't notice any drag with the SON28 Klassik when off, and when generating, the drag was far less than any other dynamo I've used. I don't have the *new* SON28 on the Nomad hooked-up yet, so I can't tell you how well it does when riding. When testing on the stationary bike, it seemed to have less drag with or without an electrical load.

I hope this helps, jags. To briefly sum up:

= The Supernova looks like a class approach in dynohubs, claims high output at low speeds, and has the option of a clutch on the more expensive model. It is only available in 32-hole drilling at present, so that will limit its application.

= The SON28-series of dynohubs offers proven performance in generating high output at low speeds with little drag, has great bearings and build quality, and you pay a price for all this. Best of all, it is available in a variety of hub drillings.

= The Shimano dynohub has much of the function of the SON at a lower price. It is the best value of the three and the bearings might ultimately not last as long but are user-serviceable and it has slightly-to-somewhat higher drag at the same output.

Hope this helps.

All the best,

Dan. (...who is replacing all the house thermostats today)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 09:13:32 PM by Danneaux »

jags

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Re: supernova hub any good
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2012, 08:47:29 PM »
Cheers dan you went and done it again a very full review only to be thanked by me saying .
thats grand ;) i will be buying the son when ever.

(book in the post  )

Andre Jute

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Re: supernova hub any good
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2012, 12:15:03 AM »
Dan's given a good summary. I think the SON is overkill and overpriced for anything less than circumnavigations and truly extreme local uses, like Dan's cement desert. People make much of the serviceability of the Shimano (Ultegra bearings) but actually it is an irrelevance. The Shimano are specced to have a lifetime of about 40 or 50 thousand miles, half the life of a SON for a quarter the price. Personally, considering the relative street price of a good Shimano dynamo and a rebuild kit, I don't see rebuilding it. I think most people will just scrap the dynohub every third or fourth time that they wear out the rim, and buy brand-new the better dynamo that Shimano is sure to produce by then for a very low street price.

But if you gotta have a SON, you gotta have a SON.

Andre Jute

PS I find the dark mutterings of "Shimano drag" from the SON groupies entertaining. The last time Shimano hubs had any noticeable drag at all -- said to be a foot of elevation per mile of travel -- was before the turn of the century, when Shimano dynamos were still rebadged Sanyos made by Sanyo. That's umpteen generations ago. Oh, by the way, that foot of elevation per mile of travel was with the dynamo off. With it working, the drag was so little, it couldn't be found. To me that was not an argument for buying a SON, it was an argument for buying a Shimano and keeping it running to drive daylight running lamps. Today, and for years now, there is and has been no discernible difference in drag between a SON and a Shimano hub dynamo. I own both and I would put the date at which a Shimano dynohub surpassed a SON dynohub in utility (and that's regardless of price) at 2002, a decade ago, when all the then-current Shimano hub dynamos would produce more current at lower speed than the SON. As for the SON's supposed greater longevity, where's the proof? There's plenty of proof that a Rohloff gearbox lasts forever; I'd like to see similar evidence for SON.

Danneaux

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Re: supernova hub any good
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2012, 01:01:52 AM »
Quote
There's plenty of proof that a Rohloff gearbox lasts forever; I'd like to see similar evidence for SON.

Me too, as you can well imagine, Andre!

I'm guessing (notice the italics) the SON longevity is due to the complete rebulds possible in the same shell thanks to the use of cartridge bearings with contact shields. Unfortunately, while cones and bearings are replaceable in the Shimanos, they -- in common with most cup-and-cone bearings in the post-Campagnolo Nuovo Record era -- do not offer replacement cup races; when those are pitted, there goes your smooth-running hub. I make this argument 'cos it is common in most cases where replaceable, shielded cartridge bearings are used, the little-made disclaimer being, "the shell goes on" while the bearings themselves are replaced, sometimes after astonishingly short periods, depending on such user antics as complete immersion.

As for the comparative drag/friction disparity between the SON and Shimano...Andre, I think much of the perception arises from a comparative video that was floating around the 'Net for awhile. I recall seeing it seemingly everywhere about a year ago; now, not so much.

I may have misread your meaning, but I have found my dynohubs exhibit *more* drag under load, and to have the least drag when no electrical load is placed on them. Did you mean that, under load, there is less difference in drag between SON and Shimano than there is in the unloaded state?

All the best, and in general agreement,

Dan. (A lot of things have bearing on these issues...)

Andre Jute

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Re: supernova hub any good
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2012, 05:07:09 PM »
Dan. (A lot of things have bearing on these issues...)

LOL. A pun, if it is good, is NOT the lowest form of wit.

Actually Dan, I meant what you found impossible to believe at first glance because it is counterintuitive. Yes, there was a time when the early Shimano hub dynamos, nee Sanyo, had more resistance when the lamps were switched OFF on than when the lamps were switched on. That's in the long ago and far away, though, even if the street myth lingers.

Andre Jute

jags

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Re: supernova hub any good
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2012, 05:20:17 PM »
well reckon i could save a small fortune if i were to buy the shimano  ;D ;D
i'm going to toss a coin  best way i figure ;)

Andre i posted that off this morning if its no good you know who to blame ;)

Andre Jute

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Re: supernova hub any good
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2012, 12:26:15 AM »
well reckon i could save a small fortune if i were to buy the shimano  ;D ;D
i'm going to toss a coin  best way i figure ;)

Thing is, Jags, I give a technical opinion because that's what I'm asked for. But if you really want the SON, because everyone you know has one, or you believe it is somehow better, you should have it. Not all purchasing decisions need to be logical. (I don't really need a Cane Creek-made copy of the Cane Creek S6, because I'll never wear out any of good but cheaper headsets, but it was the headset that led the changeover from quills to A-head threadless sets, so I took it as a sort of technical homage; lots of bits on my bikes that aren't really justified by the mileage I do but that have some kind of historical provenance; I don't mind paying for it, but I don't pretend it is technically necessary or even quite rational.)

On the other hand, if you're going to feel superior every time you ride your Shimano hub dynamo past some fashion victim who paid three or four times as much for his SON, as I do, you should buy the Shimano.

Andre i posted that off this morning if its no good you know who to blame ;)

We'll take a holiday break in the States, stop off in Portland to deliver a good slagging, and ride on to go sit in the Big Mac next to the Playa Desert in our Lycra and opine loudly that it isn't so tough, before we ride back the way we came, with clean bikes. Always fancied myself as a cafe racer. Heh-heh!

Andre Jute

Danneaux

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Re: supernova hub any good
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2012, 01:19:38 AM »
Quote
We'll take a holiday break in the States, stop off in Portland to deliver a good slagging, and ride on to go sit in the Big Mac next to the Playa Desert in our Lycra and opine loudly that it isn't so tough, before we ride back the way we came, with clean bikes. Always fancied myself as a cafe racer. Heh-heh!

You're welcome anytime, Andre; love to see you and get in a good chin-wag or three. Just call first so y'don't miss me.

All the best,

Dan. (...who smiled most broadly and chuckled deeply on reading Andre's missive!  ;D)

Dave Whittle Thorn Workshop

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Re: supernova hub any good
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2012, 10:32:50 PM »
Just to clear some misconceptions:

- Supernova hubs are made by Shutter Precision in China they are not German like the lights are,they do aparently have better bearings than the standard SP ones though.
- SP and Supernova dynamo hubs in our and Schmidts tests even in the off position have more drag than a Son Edelux
- Shimano hubs might be re-build-able if the UK agent had ever imported any spare cones, and they still use Sanyo armatures
- Son are the only ones with a 5yr warranty, and a lifetime service or exchange guarantee
- We have already sent back a few SP dynamo hubs with shot out bearings after only a few thousand km's of use, all the UK importer can do is replace the hub they wont cover the wheelbuild cost... not ideal!

Hope this helps to make an informed decision.


Andre Jute

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Re: supernova hub any good
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2012, 03:04:48 AM »
Just to clear some misconceptions:
- Shimano hubs might be re-build-able if the UK agent had ever imported any spare cones, and they still use Sanyo armatures

That's not a misconception, it's a smart commercial decision. Who wants to rebuild a £45 hub with a kit that costs £38? By the time a Shimano hub dynamo wears out it will be long since time to chuck the rim and build a new wheel. It's a good time to fit a new dynamo too. And, in real life, the wise owner will buy his new dynohub wheel readybuilt on the surplus market via Ebay.

Andre Jute