Anyone using stainless-steel chains with Rohloff? Any longer-lived?

[Danneaux]

Hi All!

As I mine the Forum's very useful Rohloff board archives yet again, I find myself wondering if a stainless-steel chain might further improve the already stellar longevity of a Rohloff drivetrain. Our own Stuart (stutho) has already reported chain life in excess of 10,000 miles if the chain is allowed to wear in with the same cog and chainring (which are then reversed and mated with a fresh chain thereafter). That's incredible chain life in the eyes of any derailleur bike owner.

A stainless steel chain is hard, and the general anti-corrosion properties appeal as well. Stainless steel does work-harden (and is horrible to drill and saw for that very reason). The downside is increased cost, diminishing returns and benefits, and dubious advantage.

A nice general summary of stainless chains' properties can be found here...
http://bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/9512/are-there-any-disadvantages-to-running-a-stainless-steel-bike-chain
...but I still find myself wondering if anyone here has firsthand experience running one over an extended period with a Rohloff hub, and if so, how did the stainless Rohloff cog fair? And the alloy chainring?

I'm guessing the chainring would be the weak link in the train, showing the most wear unless it, too, were stainless. Any predictions for how an all-stainless deivetrain might fare? An argument could be made that overall wear might only remain on-par with conventional setups (alloy 'ring, conventional steel chain, stainless Rohloff cog) due to all parts being equally hard. On the other hand, the lot might just outlast anything else (except for a Hebie Chainglider-enclosed drivetrain). Thoughts?

Best,

Dan.

[Andre Jute]

Any predictions for how an all-stainless deivetrain might fare? An argument could be made that overall wear might only remain on-par with conventional setups (alloy 'ring, conventional steel chain, stainless Rohloff cog) due to all parts being equally hard. On the other hand, the lot might just outlast anything else (except for a Hebie Chainglider-enclosed drivetrain). Thoughts?

I can't answer your question, because my stainless chainring has only 1100 or 1200km on it, and anyway, I'm not running it "normally" but trying to see how far the factory lube lasts inside a chaincase.

But I want to caution you not to expect too much from a chaincase. My experience is that a chaincase doubles chain life. That experience was with Shimano hub gearboxes, and full Dutch chaincases, and inexpensive Shimano and SRAM chains, and the life extension was from under a thousand miles per chain to under two thousand. I was stunned when I came on this forum and read about members getting thousands upon thousands of miles.

I was extremely satisfied when I changed on my Kranich to a steel chainring and an upmarket (but not much more expensive!) KMC chain, and got 4506km out of the chain, with the chainring and cog apparently unworn, and clearly heading for twice that distance, or perhaps (much) further.

I will never fit another alloy chainring, no matter what it's provenance. I have enough KMC X8 chains to see me through many years of cycling at that rate, so the question is, would I fit a stainless chain if it were the same price. I'm not so sure. I think there could be a noise question to be answered first. Also, if there is to be a sacrificial, i.e. softer, element to use in noise abatement, I'd rather it were the inexpensive, easily replaced chain.

However, somewhere on this forum I have already made the case that with a "single speed" transmission like a Rohloff, fitted with either sliders or an EBB, chain "stretch" is irrelevant. You just change the transmission length to accommodate chain wear, and Bob's your uncle. In theory, therefore, you could wear the entire drivetrain down to almost nothing. At the time, other posters sent in references with photographs of these incredibly worn Rohloff cogs, so it is certainly doable.

Worth it? Marginal advantage? Cost per mile? I just don't know. Even at the price of an all-stainless drivetrain, beating Stu's mileage per chain would be its own satisfaction!

Andre Jute

[Danneaux]

...beating Stu's mileage per chain would be its own satisfaction!

Thanks for your carefully-reasoned thoughts, Andre; much appreciated!

Stuart is my chain-wear hero, and as soon as he returns...I will have questions for him! I wonder if he is doing anything special with his Rohloff drivetrain compared to the others that might account for his remarkably long wear...special lube? Frequent cleanings? Avoiding hills? I do know he is using an aluminum chainring (Thorn) and a non-stainless chain with a Rohloff cog of some size.

Given Stu's experience, I think I will follow as closely as possible, meaning I will use just the one chain till the cog and chainring show wear, then swap to a new chain and reverse the two gears so the unworn faces come into play. *That* would be Maintenance Paradise for me if I could get even 75% of his chain wear.

This is no longer a mere question...it is a Quest!

Best,

Dan. (theme music from Raiders of the Lost Ark playing in the background...)

[martinf]

Not used a stainless-steel chain myself, but I did read somewhere about a Wipperman stainless-steel chain failing by breakage (not wear), so I would be a little wary of using one.

KMC make an expensive nickel-plated chain specially designed for hub gear use, the X1.

At present I regard chains as short-lived consumable items, so tend to get the cheapest reasonable quality (usually SRAM PC830 for 3/32" transmissions), but if looking for a super chain to use on a Rohloff setup I would be more inclined to try the KMC X1 rather than stainless-steel.

I have tried KMC anti-corrosion chains. AFAIK these are zinc-plated. No benefit in my type of use, and I have read that in some circumstances the zinc can cause excessive drivetrain wear when particles start coming off the chain.

[Big_Jim]

I've used a cheap Sram chain and XT ring for 3 years & 2500 miles on my mountain bike in the mud and grit and grime of the Peak District before it wore so badly the chain fell off. Unfortunately, this immediately preceeded myself falling off!
I've now fitted a Thorn single speed chainring and a KMC X1 chain, so it'll be a year or so before I have any indication of life expectancy. On a positive note, it appears that the Thorn chainring has much deeper (or should that be longer?) teeth than the previous Shimano XT ring. I'm hoping it'll help to stop the chain falling off to some extent as the drivetrain wears.

Jim

[snoogly]

I have also switched to the KMC X1 chain, but I am tad confused about the missinglink. It is classed as 'non-resuable', which is a bit of a disappointment as I was hoping I could easily pop the chain off for cleaning/ transporting.

The x1 missinglink packaging also states the links shouldn't be re-used.

Can anyone confirm that the link on this chain can in face be re-used (on the same chain, not switched to a different chain), and if so, does one have to use a tool to remove it?

If the x1 link can't be reused, is it possible/advisable to substitute one of the missinglinks that is claimed to be resuasble?

Thanks.

[Danneaux]

Hi Snoogly!

As I recall, you have that lovely black disc-braked Carl Strong with the shop-installed Rohloff. My, it is a beauty!

You asked...

Can anyone confirm that the link on this chain can in face be re-used (on the same chain, not switched to a different chain)

<nods> Yes, I have done so repeatedly on the same chain and continue to do so with no problems. That is also the general concensus here: http://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-shifters-derailleurs-cranks/re-use-kmc-missing-link-whats-your-advice-670607.html

You also asked...

does one have to use a tool to remove it?

No, no tools needed. It is a simple thing to remove, but as with other connecting links of this type, there is a small trick that isn't obvious that will make it go so much easier: Be sure to pinch the links together as you slide them apart. <-- That's the trick: Pinch, then slide. Sometimes, you'll even hear a little "click" as you press the links (press the sides directly *in* toward each other). Once you've done that, just slide the link halves lengthwise relative to each other, and the plates will release, allowing the mating halves to come apart.

Re-installation is the reverse of this process. I put one connector-link half in each chain end, align the pins with the holes, pinch together and then slide my fingers (and with them, the two link-halves).

As the chain wears, so will the link, becoming a bit easier to remove and reinstall. I have never found a connecting link to release accidentally. I believe it was Pavel who voiced the very good idea to install a *couple* connecting links on his chain so he could easily remove a link-pair on-tour when his chain stretched beyond the remaining take-up afforded by his eccentric bottom bracket. I have seen chains comprised of discarded excess segments joined by a number of connecting links, and I believe Dave Fife has seen similar in his regular shop-repair experience. I've never seen a link fail outright, though I suppose it could happen.

I hope this helps. If you have any trouble installing or removing the connecting link (sometimes people do, till they get the hang of it), give a shout and I'll put up a little photo-illustrated tutorial.

Regarding your last question...

is it possible/advisable to substitute one of the missinglinks that is claimed to be resuasble?

...Again, yes! I have had excellent results substituting other manufacturers' links so long as the link is the same width (same number of "speeds") as the chain it is used on (i.e. 9-speed link on a 9-speed chain). The KMC Missing Link is reusable in my own experience, and I have also substituted a SRAM link and found no increase in noise or skipping or problems in mating so long as they were all the same dimension and also the same age/wear. I had the same good results using a KMC link on a SRAM chain and a SRAM link on a Shimano chain. Once installed with the new chain, I kept the same link with that chain for the life of the chain, discarding it when I discarded the chain. I start out with a new link on each new chain.

I do believe it is wise to replace the connecting link every time you replace the chain, as it is another link and will wear at the same rate as the others.

Best,

Dan.

[snoogly]

Thanks Dan, you are a hero

My 'Strong' Rohloff bike is still going strong. An oil change, new twist shifter (with white numbers) and a new chain are the only things that have changed since it was born. (pic added)

Your explanation of missing links is reassuring and informative, but I must admit I have difficulty getting my head around how to remove (and fit) them by hand.

I hope this helps. If you have any trouble installing or removing the connecting link (sometimes people do, till they get the hang of it), give a shout and I'll put up a little photo-illustrated tutorial.

If you could go to the trouble of doing this I would be your slave for life! Once my clumsy fingers grip the chain my brain can't quite figure out what to do. I tried a couple of times, but I couldn't get it to budge at all. On a derailleur bike it's easy to get some slack in the chain to make link removal easier, but on a Rohloff the chain is under more tension.

[Danneaux]

Hi Snoogly,

There's not one of us who hasn't wondered about bike parts the first time around, so I'm glad you asked for all the others who were too shy to do so. The only dumb question is the one left unasked.

You said...

I tried a couple of times, but I couldn't get it [the connecting link] to budge at all. On a derailleur bike it's easy to get some slack in the chain to make link removal easier, but on a Rohloff the chain is under more tension.

Ah, the procedure is a little different on a Rohloff bike. On mine (with a fresh, unstretched chain at present), I lay the bike on its side, undo the rear quick-release, and drop the wheel several centimeters. This creates enough slack in the chain to remove the connector easily.

I've attached a little photo tutorial that should make the whole procedure much easier to visualize. If it still seems opaque, give a shout and we'll think of something else. My package of KMC links even touts them as "reusable", so no worries there; it's the Official Word.

Best,

Dan.

[snoogly]

Wonderful!

Will have a few stiff drinks to give me confidence, .... then wait until I sober-up to give it a try.

Dropping the wheel, ...doohhhh!!! Why didn't I think of that!

[gearoidmuar]

I can't answer your question, because my stainless chainring has only 1100 or 1200km on it, and anyway, I'm not running it "normally" but trying to see how far the factory lube lasts inside a chaincase.

But I want to caution you not to expect too much from a chaincase. My experience is that a chaincase doubles chain life. That experience was with Shimano hub gearboxes, and full Dutch chaincases, and inexpensive Shimano and SRAM chains, and the life extension was from under a thousand miles per chain to under two thousand. I was stunned when I came on this forum and read about members getting thousands upon thousands of miles.

I was extremely satisfied when I changed on my Kranich to a steel chainring and an upmarket (but not much more expensive!) KMC chain, and got 4506km out of the chain, with the chainring and cog apparently unworn, and clearly heading for twice that distance, or perhaps (much) further.

I will never fit another alloy chainring, no matter what it's provenance. I have enough KMC X8 chains to see me through many years of cycling at that rate, so the question is, would I fit a stainless chain if it were the same price. I'm not so sure. I think there could be a noise question to be answered first. Also, if there is to be a sacrificial, i.e. softer, element to use in noise abatement, I'd rather it were the inexpensive, easily replaced chain.

However, somewhere on this forum I have already made the case that with a "single speed" transmission like a Rohloff, fitted with either sliders or an EBB, chain "stretch" is irrelevant. You just change the transmission length to accommodate chain wear, and Bob's your uncle. In theory, therefore, you could wear the entire drivetrain down to almost nothing. At the time, other posters sent in references with photographs of these incredibly worn Rohloff cogs, so it is certainly doable.

Worth it? Marginal advantage? Cost per mile? I just don't know. Even at the price of an all-stainless drivetrain, beating Stu's mileage per chain would be its own satisfaction!

Andre Jute

There's one problem with this, Andre. As chains get more worn, they are inclined to fail. It's happened to me quite a number of times..

[Hamish]

My problem is always that the chain wears faster than the sprocket and chainring.  The chain 'stretches' with wear and then is too long for the chain ring, becomes rough and noisy to ride. I am left with changing the whole lot too early or finding another part worn chain that fits the part worn 'cog' and 'rings.  I have managed to do this three times now and it works quite well.

I think this is all because of the sand on my commute to work.  People have recommended the chainglider approach and I have yet to try it- due mainly to laziness and timing (I would try it on a new chain).

I keep meaning to change the chain early to avoid wear.  The problem is that I think I would need about 6 chains a year if I did that!

[Andre Jute]

There's one problem with this, Andre. As chains get more worn, they are inclined to fail. It's happened to me quite a number of times..

Are you saying that the effort and expense of trying to make the drivetrain last longer has a natural limit? Can't disagree with the principle, of course, but I would have thought that my experience of going from thousand miles per chain to 4500km per chain with the chain case (and admittedly a better quality of chain) was at least encouragement to take one step further. For the moment, I'm not at all sure I haven't actually paid less per mile after switching first to chain cases from a bare chain -- a small stop admittedly but still a saving --  to quality components (from Shimano's Nexus level cogs, for instance, to steel), which turned out to give me a big longevity step between double and 3x, depending on the basis chosen.

Of course, i take the view that, in all this, my time is the most valuable component. If I could double my chain life to 9000km by an obsessive service schedule, I wouldn't bother. My aim is to reduce the maintenance to near zero; increased service life is a bonus.

Andre Jute