Rigida Andra CSS - Reviews please

[freddered]

I'm thinking of making my next rear wheel a Rigida Andra CSS.

Reasoning -

It's drilled specifically for Rohloff's large flange (and I've broken a couple of spokes on rims that force a kink at the spoke nipple.  It can not be good for something under such a load to be kinked).

They last for years.  This means I won't need so many wheel builds after cruddy winter riding.  I haven't heard of one showing signs of wear yet, never mind wearing out.

Negatives -

Heavy.  OK, it's a heavy bike anyway and usually carrying heavy things but adding weight will not make it any lighter.

Expensive.  Not if it lasts as long as I expect.  Even the Brake blocks don't cost much more than other top brands.  Swissstop are expensive anyway.

Potentially that's it.  It's a heavy and tough bike so it seems to match perfectly.

What is the opinion of the Forumites?

[Danneaux]

Hi Fred,

I haven't owned a pair of CSS rims, so this is my own analysis based on my observations and needs; happy to be corrected if wrong...

= From what I can tell, the CSS treatment adds little if any significant weight compared to an untreated rim of the same type (i.e. CSS vs non-CSS Rigida Andras).

= If one gets the pads intended for them, the cost difference in pads is pretty negligible due to increased service life.

= There have been some reports of CSS failure, and the modality is usually extremely poor wet-weather stopping. I dunno the causality; perhaps the rim sides finally get "polished" by the brake blocks to the point where they imitate a chrome-plated steel rim. Anyway, I have seen such reports, including in posts on this Forum. I am pressed for time at the moment, but will see if I can find them for you. Bottom line: The CSS is proving to be reliable and extremely long-lived for most users. I haven't penciled it out, but I believe the cost would be worth it if one often rides in wet, gritty conditions and/or on hills. If the majority of one's riding is in dry conditions or the flats, then it might not pay. I believe it is fair to say the CSS treatment makes the rims essentially maintenance free for a very long time. I usually clean the braking track of my plain-alloy rims annually with regular use.

= A cost-effective way of going this route would be to replace the most-used rim or the one that sees the heaviest braking. I have considered going this route. Here in the States where we drive/ride of the right of the centerline, I need my left arm free to signal turns. That means my right hand controls the rear brake. The back brake is less effective than the front due to weight transfer, but it is also less likely to cause me harm if I lock it up with only one hand holding the 'bars. Therefore, the rear rim sees a lot of use -- light use -- getting feathered to a stop as I approach a stop sign or traffic light. Practically all my intended stopping and speed modulation is done on the front wheel, thanks to the better stopping it provides. It therefore sees the most wear. If I were to replace only one rim with a CSS, it would be at the front. Rear rims last me practically forever.

The same idea would apply if you use your rear brake for the majority of your stopping needs, so yes, your strategy of replacing only the rear sounds good to me. The front wheel could continue to use a conventional rim/pad combo as before.

This is a strategy to consider if a pair is just too expensive at present.

And, finally, my comments apply only to what I've read about Rigida's proprietary CSS (Ceramic-based SuperSonic application) method. The kind employed by Mavic and others is different in application and result, with more frequent reports of cracking and flaking and with different rates of wear.

Hope this helps.

Best,

Dan.

EDIT: Ah! Here is a quick link to a discussion that might have relevance wrt potential downsides for CSS: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=2680.0 Perhaps their practical service life could be extended with a change of pad type/brand. Use the Forum Search function to check for more. I have posted some tips to getting just what you seek from Forum searches here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4390.0

[triaesthete]

Hi Fred
I am at an early stage of experimenting with Grizzly CSS rims and the immediately obvious benefits are:

  -the total lack of black filth that covers everything if you ride down many hills in the rain. (Schwalbe reflective sidewall strips are now effective in winter).

  -the much improved adjustment intervals of V brakes, due to far lower pad wear rates.

  -cost effective pads. Twice the price of Shimano but easily twice the life and lots more to come. Cheaper than disc pads too.

  -less weight penalty and simpler than a disc brake.

  -work better than normal rim brakes in really muddy/gritty conditions. A couple of light strokes clean the rim quickly without grooving it or embedding debris into the pad. (As it says in the     Thorn brochures the squealing when new is soon cured by this sort of running in).

I have high hopes that  they will soon prove to be cost effective overall.  The rims will certainly need less frequent replacement which should  give huge savings particularly if you pay for wheel builds and have to cough up for new spokes every time  as well.

I think the true benefit of CSS treatment is missed if you use the heavier rims though:

Most 500 gram 26" rims are structurally strong and rigid enough unless they are being really hammered on rough terrain with high loads.
The only other function of the extra 200g or so on Andras is to give them thicker extrusion sections in the braking area, thus allowing more metal to be worn off  by the brakes before they fail (Hobnail boot design philosophy).
CSS means less rim material loss to braking so why not design it out and save the weight where it counts most. The Grizzly does this.

What suprises me is that this approach is not applied to lighter (circa 425g) rim sections like the DT Swiss Thorn offer on the RST, in order to give increased practicality with the performance gain.

As for wet weather performance, so far they can have a bit of lag a bit like early undrilled motorcycle discs exhibited but you can do a bit of light braking to dry them without having to watch the brake blocks disappear before your eyes. It will be interesting to see what happens when the brake tracks get a shine to them.

I hope this is useful
Ian

[Cambirder]

What surprises me is that this approach is not applied to lighter (circa 425g) rim sections like the DT Swiss Thorn offer on the RST, in order to give increased practicality with the performance gain.


The DT Swiss XR 440 MTB is a ceramic rim which I considered putting on my RST, but as I don't do a lot of hilly riding or carry heavy loads I stuck with the XR 350's. Depending on how long these last however their replacements may well be ceramic rims of the lighter variety.

[julk]

Fred,
my first Thorn had Sun Rhyno rims, my second Rigida Andra CSS.
The Andra are looking like a superb replacement for heavy duty use.

I found the braking with CSS Blue SwissStop pads incredibly good in the dry to very poor in heavy rain.
I changed to CSS Black KoolStop which have a more even performance for me.

I was just checking my spares box recently and found I still have a new pair of cartridge Blue SwissStop pads which I will not be using - bought them in when the bike was new.
They are yours for £6 posted if you want them, I will put them on the for sale area if you don't want them.
Julian.

[il padrone]

10,000kms ridden on the Andra 30 CSS rims in the past 18 months and they're going great. Ideal sort of rim for an expedition touring bike (26") that I expect to take on some pretty rough roads and tracks. The weight penalty is pretty marginal, I ride just as quick as with Mavic XM719.  The rims look virtually untouched. Braking is very good with the Swisstop pads and their cost is disappearing all the time, unlike the pads. They are a bit too light on the braking power in wet rainy conditions and I'm a little wary about this. Sometime I will switch to the Koolstop green pads that are also suited to carbide rims - they might give better wet braking I hope.

The cleanliness and absence of braking dust all over the tyres is a surprise bonus feature.

In the value stakes I'm expecting these rims to last 60% - 100% longer than normal alloy rims of similar beefiness do. Hoping to get 8-10 years of use.


Oh and Dan CSS stands for carbide supersonic treatment. Ceramic is a different rim altogether  

[freddered]

I think I'm sold on the idea.  Thanks for your feedback.

As for poor wet-weather braking I will still be using a standard rim on the front.  I'll fit Koolstop Salmon pads to the front to compensate for any loss of braking power at the back.

My current wheel has plenty of life left in it so I won't be replacing it just yet.  However, I really don't like the angle that the spokes emerge from the rear rim and would prefer a rim drilled for Rohloff.

[triaesthete]

Fred,
on the wheel that suffered the spoke breakages, was there by any chance just the tiniest little bit of spoke thread showing below the nipples? (ie wheel built with spoke lengths rounded down).
Curious
Ian

[Danneaux]

Fred,

I'm with Ian in wondering if any spoke threads might have been exposed past the nipples. Threads are small stress-risers if exposed and unsupported by the nipple, and can increase the chance for breakage, especally if also subjected to angular stresses on the way to the hub.

I don't know if this will help for future reference, but it used to be standard practice for wheel builders to use an awl or similar tool to gently shape (bend, form) the spoke seats (i.e. the steel rim ferrules) to the angle of departure for each spoke. I've done this where appropriate on wheels I've built, and with good results (sometimes the ferrules aren't clinched completely or very well). Done with care, the rims showed no signs of weakening (the angles are prettly slight) and the angle of departure at the nipple was brought into alignment with the spoke shaft, much as the Rohloff-drilled Rigidas accomplish by design. It might be a thought if at some point you ever wish to lace-up a non-Rohloff-specific rim.

Your plan sounds really sound, and I'm looking forward to hearing how it all works out for you (and any pics of it you might post). My guess? It will likely work so well, you'll eventually add a CSS front wheel to match the rear.

Best,

Dan. (who thanks Pete for the CSS correction. What was I thinking? )

[Kuba]

My current wheel has plenty of life left in it so I won't be replacing it just yet.  However, I really don't like the angle that the spokes emerge from the rear rim and would prefer a rim drilled for Rohloff.

Have you considered a Rohloff-specific non-CSS version of Andra? http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/rigida-andra-30-26-%28559%29-mtb-rim-black-32-hole-rohloff-drilling-prod13565/

This would address your main concern and also alleviate the wet-weather breaking issues mentioned above. I was thinking to get Andra CSS rims when my Rhynos wear out. Now I have second thoughts though, as CSS rims they may not be ideal for wet-weather moderate mileage riding.

[Danneaux]

Kuba does make a good point about superb braking on a (relative) budget; the non-CSS Rigida Andras on my Sherpa -- equipped with Kool-Stop salmon pads -- gave me some of the best braking I have *ever* enjoyed on a touring bike. As good as the same pads with Mavic MA-2 rims on one of my other bikes. Just outstanding, and supposedly long-lived, given the thick sidewalls.

Of course, they do have the usual un-treated alloy rim concerns of (comparatively more) rapid wear and the black oxide-laden spray coming off them as any other. A bit cheaper, though, and yes, more long-lived than some competitors provided one uses rim-friendly pads.

Best,

Dan.

[Kuba]

Thanks Dan. Another thing is that with £30 price difference per rim, an investment in XTR brakes instead actually becomes almost economical. I have XTRs on my Raven and coupled with KoolStop pads I find that they do save the rims (and pads!) while also giving superb stopping power (on 25% gradient, with full camping kit, the forks struggled slightly but the brakes did not). Given what Dan says about non-CSS Andras, I would go for CSS only if going on an extended tour, six months plus.

[il padrone]

Personally I value long rim life, whether riding around the world or riding to work 

[Kuba]

Well, that's down to personal circumstances then. I regularly commute on a cheapo Trek hybrid and only ride the Raven when out on a tour. It occurred to me before than I should use the Raven for my commute also but then I work in Bristol so the cheaper the rims, and the more knackered the bike, the higher the chance I won't have to walk back home! On the other hand my Trek is falling apart so started thinking again about commuting on the Thorn, which is great for purpose and insured anyway. Oh choices

Anyway - I only covered 3500K on the Raven in the first year and therefore would go for non-CSS. If I planned to cover 2-3 times that, I'd be leaning towards CSS.

[triaesthete]

One  Andra 26 inch rim is 195!!!!! grammes heavier than a grizzly (which ain't superlight). One rim!!!!  

If Fred rides hilly Audaxes with lots of stop start, hills, wind, traffic, junctions and groups changing pace and he can do it on rims this heavy then he'll be fit to run marathons in diving boots or drag sledges with Ran Fiennes.

About 40% more rotational inertia from the rims? (Cue posts from disgusted physicists) 

Old roadie talk I know, but if ever there was a place not to add 390g to a bicycle this is it 

Cheers
Ian