Author Topic: High gearing and knee health  (Read 4322 times)

JWestland

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High gearing and knee health
« on: July 02, 2012, 10:17:34 PM »
Hi -

Does anybody have some hard data on high gearing and knee health?

I always hear people say "high gearing is bad for your knees" but what exactly constitutes high gearing, what makes it bad for your knees etc...isn't defined.

I wonder if this is a truism or if I should lay off on the 52/14-16 (3.7-3.2) (nearly all the time) to 52/11 (a stomach churning 4.7)(with tailwinds that is  ;D) on the way to work...

No bother ever with my knees, and I do squats over bodyweight too but...prevention better than new knees ;)
Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)

Danneaux

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Re: High gearing and knee health
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2012, 01:30:40 AM »
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what exactly constitutes high gearing
Well, Jawine...I'd say you're there now in my book, and have just assumed godlike proportions in the echelon of cycling. I'm not sure even the legendary Beryl Burton or Jeannie Longo could stand against you, let alone a small fish like Lance Armstrong. Those are tremendous gears! My sister, who also occasionally reads posts on this Forum, is equally impressed.

By contrast, I tootle along in my 44/18 or 50/21 at a hummingbird-like 110-120 RPM all day and am happy as can be.

I know several "mashers" personally who do churn along in very high gears at about 35-40 RPM and are as unstoppable as steamrollers. Surely Jobst Brandt (a giant in stature as well as intellect and sheer ability) views low gearing as a substitute for fitness. Looking at his circuits of the great Alpine passes, I can see his point. I also know my knees would explode with enough shrapnel to injure any crowd of onlookers if I tried the same.

What I'm saying, I guess, is different people (and their knees) seem to tolerate different stresses, pressures, and pedaling cadences. What works for one won't for another, and unless they have a complaint, everyone seems happy to find their own path.

It is generally accepted, though, that touring bikes are a lot more fun when climbing with a load if you have low gears and can ease the strain on your knees. I'm running a 16" low and am glad of it (26x2.0 tires and 22/36; "second" gear is a 22/32, which is used more often). Most people seem happy with a low in the 19-20" range (with 700C wheels, this works out to 24/34 or 24x32; with a 26x2.0 wheel/tire combo, it would be 22/30 or 22/28). Conventional wisdom dictating lower gears for touring must have some general foundation in reality.

Kinda depends on the weight you're hauling and the terrain, too. In the good ol' NL, I never dropped below a 54" gear, except...in 48kph headwinds along the North Sea, and again grinding up the short but very steep road climbing The Vaalserberg ("Mount Vaals" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaalserberg ) a 322.7m/1,059 ft hill just west of Aachen, Germany. Going in and out of Spa and Francorchamps in BE, I needed every gear on the cassette and surely used the 19" low I had.
Quote
I always hear people say "high gearing is bad for your knees"...what makes it bad for your knees etc...isn't defined.
I can't tell you to lay off a bit, Jawine, but I really think it would be a good idea for the long-term. Most of my experience has been with others who suffered knee injuries and then found they couldn't/shouldn't pull high gears. Mostly out of comfort, but sometimes on doctors' orders. I started out that way, riding for physio/rehab. I don't have much experience with people who rode too-high gears and ground their knees to dust and osetoarthritis and knee surgeries. I once knew a very nice young woman at uni who planted her foot while playing tennis, then rotated around her knee to return a serve. She had three knee surgeries and was on crutches for two years. That's a pretty clear cause-effect relationship. High gears and dead knees? Not so much, from studies I've seen, wondering the same thing. Sheldon Brown wrote, "Pedaling slower than your ideal cadence is wasteful of energy. You also run a higher risk of muscle strains and joint damage, particularly to the knees and hips" ( http://sheldonbrown.com/gears.html ). Sounds reasonable wrt injuries and avoiding same, but what if your ideal cadence happens to be slow, and in a high gear? Maybe this is just your natural rhythm, Jawine.

There's a lot that affects your natural cadence, too. Are you average height? Shorter? Taller? What kind of cadence are you pulling in those gear combos? I realize I'm a hummingbird-roadie, but there is a benefit to building souplesse (flexibility) in a nice, round pedaling style.  Do you ride Fixed much?  Do you start out in lower gears and shift up, or stand on the pedals or while riding? Use the drops? All these are factors that help determine what gears you can manage. You mentioned tailwinds, but what about hills and headwinds? What kinds of loads are you carrying? Body position, saddle height, and the fore-aft placement of the saddle, and crank length all have an effect, too.

And...maybe your squats over body-weight have really paid off, and this is one of the dividends.

Your story inspired my knees and they have aspirations (better than having them aspirated, but still....!). Tell us more!

All the best,

Dan. (simply.in.awe)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 02:22:14 AM by Danneaux »

il padrone

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Re: High gearing and knee health
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2012, 02:51:42 AM »
Sheldon Brown wrote, "Pedaling slower than your ideal cadence is wasteful of energy. You also run a higher risk of muscle strains and joint damage, particularly to the knees and hips" ( http://sheldonbrown.com/gears.html ). Sounds reasonable wrt injuries and avoiding same, but what if your ideal cadence happens to be slow, and in a high gear? Maybe this is just your natural rhythm, Jawine.

It's good to have a range of capabilities in your pedaling cadence. Riding a single-speed or fixed gear bike is great for training in this regard...... as long as you keep it lightly loaded.

As far as the greatest efficiency goes, your best guide may be to look at how the TdF riders pedal. On everything except the hors categorie climbs they will be spinning along nicely at 90+ rpm. These guys are aiming to keep pace, for 200kms per day, for 3 weeks.

Andre Jute

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Re: High gearing and knee health
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2012, 05:42:44 AM »
Mmm. Some people, especially those who came to cycling late, don't relate well to "cadence" and "efficiency" on their bikes.

I'm a masher even on 38x16 gears (on 700c wheels). My natural top cadence is 60rpm. Under the influence of the roadies on RBT, I tried and failed to develop a higher cadence. I'm happy with 40-60rpm because I have no racing or fast touring or even commuting aspirations; I'm a fitness and recreational cyclist who poodles along holding conversations with the pedal pals, and extremely happy to be one. (Full disclosure: today I rode intervals on a short hill for my heart, but, believe me, that's not my normal style.)

Recently, sentenced to Cardiac Reeducation in the Gulag of Physiotherapy, on three different exercise bicycles I noticed that I was pulling 130W whatever my cadence (because I tended to keep my fingers on the load buttons to adjust them reflexively), but that my respiration was not unduly elevated, and was stable within a couple of bpm, when I pedalled at 60rpm rather than 90rpm or 40rpm, which I also tried.

Of course, this is partly what you have accustomed yourself to over the years. But I have been very surprised at the inability of other cyclists, especially roadies, I ride with from time to time, to "listen to your body". Most of the roadies I know seem to be masochists, or at least to believe that if it doesn't hurt, it can't be good (enough?) for you.

Andre Jute
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6527richardm

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Re: High gearing and knee health
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2012, 08:42:09 AM »
I agree with Dan that if you could you would be better trying to spin at a higher cadence not necessarily at above 90 but certainly above 60/65 rpm.

Anecdotally i have heard of people having problems with their knees when they consistently turn big gears but as others have said everyone is different.

Why not try spinning at a higher cadence in a lower gear and see how it feels you will almost certainly take the same amount of time to get to your destination and you may find you arrive fresher.

il padrone

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Re: High gearing and knee health
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2012, 08:48:40 AM »
An illuminating tip that a friend gave me was the idea that, when pedaling, you should feel next to no resistance. As soon as you feel some pedal resistance then it's time to change down a gear, and just spin away. With practice you will find you cover the miles quicker and happier this way.

Eg. on a climb near my home I can struggle up in 8th, push up in 7th, but if I spin up in 6th I travel faster and get to the top feeling much better.


I will acknowledge however that stockier riders do find this harder - they have greater power in their quads and it's more tiring to spin their larger leg mass. I'm a whippet so spinning works for me.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 08:51:36 AM by il padrone »

JWestland

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Re: High gearing and knee health
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2012, 01:21:20 PM »
I saw  you do lawn rolls Dan, your hamstrings might be much stronger than you think ^_^ I have a great coach, that helps for squatting no doubt! You might be pleasantly surprised :)

Fair point that if you drop below a certain RPM it's too heavy. Also agree bike should spin freely before changing gear...if it's too heavy to start, drop it.

So...I tend to start at 52/16...then depending on wind, if I know I need to stop etc go up to 52/14 or 52/11 if conditions are good. This is all on the flat, with just a back pack, with some good/bad 20moh winds on some days.

On a hill and loaded I found I need lower gears of course and on a steep hill no doubt to keep cadence I need to drop more and jump to the 42 sometimes. The XTC isn't for dragging 40 KGs, in hills being light myself no doubt helps.

I have a 42/16 fixie (spin spin spin) which to me feels a little light. But the fixie is for town might put a 46 ring on it, but there's no use going heavy on fixed (unless you cycle track) as you get an almighty "donkey's kick" on a heavier gear at emergency stops and town is full of suicidal pedestrians, traffic lights, non indicating drivers, people communing with butterflies etc.

The other bike is a heavy crappy 18 kg 3 speed hub geared roadster with wind catching child seat. There's no way you go fast on that, but it's a good training bike for dragging up 5% hills... ;)

As I found on fixie, I find spinning is more tiring for me. Big quads and smallish lungs proportionally, if you have thin quads and big lungs you probably use more muscles that eat oxygen, whereas mine as more "slow twitch" use eg lpw rpm to recover themselves, but high power.

I guess if I must know a cycle computer (ssssst) to measure cadence/speed is the only way to go ^_^

So it all seems experience based...strange, somebody must have checked the knees on pro cyclists? Lance Armstrong can go up 59/10 (!)
Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)

jags

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Re: High gearing and knee health
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2012, 01:32:55 PM »
eh remind me never to go cycling with you  ;D

il padrone

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Re: High gearing and knee health
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2012, 01:38:15 PM »
Lance Armstrong can go up 59/10 (!)
Not sure where you get this from??

Lance Armstrong is a spinner on the bike. 59-10 is a 160" gear, he'd have to be doing something like 70kmh to begin to make use of this gear at a 100rpm cadence  ???

6527richardm

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Re: High gearing and knee health
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2012, 01:59:48 PM »
Not sure about Armstrong using 59 10 even on this years Tour Prologue they were saying that the strong time trialists were using a big gear of 55 or 56!

JWestland

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Re: High gearing and knee health
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2012, 04:27:10 PM »
Pic of his bike in Legends of Tour the France book with bike he ridden...this was however a few years ago :)

Some of those guys go downhill are over 100KM an hour...maybe such gears are only used for that.

Also, his small ring in the book was 38 (!) a MASSIVE difference
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 04:29:59 PM by JWestland »
Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)