Author Topic: Old Man's tweaks  (Read 5001 times)

Pavel

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Old Man's tweaks
« on: April 05, 2012, 05:54:09 PM »
Well the ego has to get over it.  I knew I needed comfort and that I'm not 20 anymore, so I knew that the aerodynamic things was no longer for me.  I ordered the Nomad in a Fairly relaxed position with the straight bars.  I found that the bike was comfortable like that for about two hours, with the bars at the top.  I've been tweaking the bike, seat up a bit, seat down a bit, tilt up, tilt down, change the tires, flip the stem - you get the picture. 
Now I'm extraordinarily pleased with the bike.  The bike lives up to the adverts. (wish my legs did).  I looked to the Thorn in the first place because I had two issues.  A shoulder that goes completely numb in the correct racing setup withing half an hour - which I can ignore, but not smile though, and a sore elbow which I can't tolerate suffering through.  I'm very pleased that the Nomad as it was recommended by SJS and setup completely solved my worse problem.  The neck, however, while much better in that I can go for about two hours before the numbness starts, but it was still happening.

 So.  Did I ugly-fy my Nomad? :(  It looked so cool are macho, look at it now.  I think I turned it into an old mans bike.  Oh .... wait ... I AM an old man! (disagreement completely welcome btw)   ;D ;D



Those bars which I got for free from a bike shop have 140mm of rise - but now l'm almost there.



I was going to go for the comfort bars but they have been out of stock in black.  These have ~22 degrees of bend and I find that I'd like a bit more, say about 50 degrees.  That seems to be the real issue, the bend of the hands,  and now makes me wonder, after seeing some of the posts here; if drops, put high enough, like is possible best with Thorns fantastically high steerers, if that may not be the best way to go.  I've ordered the 50mm accesory stem and have checked - yep, lots of knee clearance.  Hmmmm, perhaps I spoke too soon about not having a use for paddle shifters for the Rohloff!  :D

In any case, this is what I've got now.  Being upright like this sure dries the sweat well as the air pushes you back.  My clothes stay dry!  ;)  And ... well ... I guess I can get used to the old man puttering look.  Whadayathink?






Danneaux

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Re: Old Man's tweaks
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2012, 06:17:48 PM »
Quote
Did I ugly-fy my Nomad?
Not at all, in my opinion! I'm big on bike personalization, and feel the most beautiful bicycle is the one best customized and suited to the owner's needs. By that criteria, you own one of the most beautiful bicycles on the Forum, Pavel. No worries.  

Truly, if changing it with new handlebars and adjustments makes it better suited to your needs, well, you only have to please yourself. And, if those changes mean you are able to go out and ride, who can argue with that? Who knows? Perhaps with more riding, some of those changes may not be needed in future. You can always go back. Or go ahead. Just so long as you're still able to ride.

Great photos, as always!

Best,

"No bad-looking bikes, and especially yours", Dan.

Pavel

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Re: Old Man's tweaks
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2012, 06:35:13 PM »
You are kind Dan ... but it does grow on a person ... and seriously, yeah the function IS the thing.  Heck, perhaps I can go even further and go the harley "ape hanger" route! :D

I did find that it really changed my pedaling.  I find that the muscles now used are different and I'm having a hard time spinning the cranks smoothly. 
Whereas before the first muscles to tell me they were being picked on were the quadriceps, now it is the maximus (or minimus at this stage) gluteus.

I normally pedal toe slightly down, but found myself doing the opposite with the upright position.  Do you know of any good, but inexpensive seat post with a good rearward offset? 

When I lived in Canada, I only dreamt of 75 degree weather likes this in March.  Nice to be spoiled that way.

Danneaux

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Re: Old Man's tweaks
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2012, 06:40:45 PM »
Quote
Do you know of any good, but inexpensive seat post with a good rearward offset?
Yes! Here on my Sherpa:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3896.0;attach=1020

Available here:
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-micro-adjust-alloy-seat-post-with-large-lay-back-400mm-x-272mm-prod23725/
...and here a similar version from a US online retailer...
http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/vo-grand-cru-seat-post-long-setback.html

Seating position will change your cadence. Upright>masher/pedals up, forward>spinner/pedals down are the two extremes, other things being equal (they never are, personal preference among them).

March/Spring in the South is the prettiest time of year, before the killer humidity/heat combo gets you. In July, it is like stepping onto the surface of Venus.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 09:06:20 PM by Danneaux »

JimK

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Re: Old Man's tweaks
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2012, 10:29:33 PM »
One further thing to consider... as you get your hands higher and your torso more vertical, you're putting more weight on the saddle. You might want to consider a sprung saddle like the Flyer or the B-66, or a suspension seatpost is probably about the same benefit.

Those look like great handlebars. I have the comfort bars & often enough wonder if a little more rearward angle wouldn't be a good thing? But my set-up is working for me right now so I am trying not to fiddle too much.

greywolf

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Re: Old Man's tweaks
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2012, 02:32:42 AM »
G'Day From Down Under,
Whatever you need to do to your equipment to allow you to enjoy it is OK with me.
For whatever it is worth, I also suffer shoulders that have had too many cycling falls to remember, and are prone to act as bump-o-meters. I cheat by wearing gel-padded mittens (check out the shops for really deep gel pads in the palms) and always use 2 or three wraps of bar tape on my road bikes. When I get new tape, I remove the old junk, clean it up and wrap it on the "contact areas". Then  wrap the new gear over the resulting mess so it looks presentable (to my eyes!). The bars look a bit fat, but you may be surprised by the number of other people who copy it - it must work for them as well! Using these tricks I get through the 150 to 200km road rides with no shoulder pain to report (everything else is in pain by then!). Neither of my road bikes have special saddles.

My MTB is different. I ride a sprung Brooks saddle and use fancy grips, but get more pain on that bike, and I reckon it stems from the right hand being virtually anchored in one position by the Rohloff shifter. I have tried relocating the shifter to the LHS, but that just shifts the pain to the left shoulder.

Anyway, you keep up the good work of experimenting. Only you can feel the improvements, and they are really enjoyable when they are all your own work.

Andre Jute

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Re: Old Man's tweaks
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2012, 04:29:10 PM »
North Road bars are good but they work best with almost no weight on your hands. They should be set high enough that the natural power transfer position is to pull up on the grips (as opposed to pushing down on drop bars).

The more upright you sit, the wider your saddle should be, as Jim says. I like the sprung Brooks saddles. The B73 is basically a B66 with three coil springs at the corners of the saddle. Significantly, SJS, the high priests of efficiency, stock the B73. You don't have to take their colours (honey, black, brown so dark it is almost black) but can make your own custom dark tan by buying a honey saddle and staining it with neatsfoot oil. It is sometimes said that the B73 sways; that's rubbish spread by people who don't ride one. The springs appear pretty hard, but they deal with big bumps well, and the leather sling deals with the small stuff. The B73 has twin rails, and in the standard Brooks manner limited fore and aft movement, so you may want an offset seat post to tune your virtual top tube to the precise angle you now want your back at. If you draw this on paper, what you're probably trying for is a virtual seat tube angle of about 68 degrees, achieved with a combination of layback seat post, stem length/angle adjustment, and handlebar height/sweepback.

Off the top of my head I believe you can fit 2in wide tyres to your Thorn.  You should consider 50mm low pressure balloons; I like the Schwalbe Big Apple Liteskins with the Extralight Type 19A tube. They have less rolling resistance than the high pressure Paselas or equivalents you use now, and last forever. I've written elsewhere on this board about the advantages of low pressure balloons on touring and utility bikes.

Brooks also have matching grips made of rings of leather packed together (on short bicycle spokes!) that you grip edge on and which are strangely comfortable. And that means a lot, coming from me, because I'm a manual worker (a writer operates a keyboard) extremely conscious of micro vibrations in my hands. A particular advantage of the Brooks grips is that the cast ali end pieces and the leather rings have almost precisely the circumference of the Rohloff rotary gear selector.

If you're turning your Thorn into a comfortable tourer, there is no reason to keep SPDs; block pedals, especially if vintage in the style of the bike, suit a slightly more relaxed progress. If your feet aren't too large the big tip here is that the VP-191 is a very reasonably priced pedal found on the best Euro-bikes (sometimes under big names that charge five or six times as much for the same thing with a new label).

***

You may be slower on the flat and up the hills, but you will be surprised at being as fast downhill as before. The question is, what is all that speed *for*?

The bits that hurt will instantly feel better. And better still when your wider Brooks saddle has a couple of thousand kilometres on it, unless it is the B73 which is widely reputed to the most comfortable Brooks saddle out of the box. Certainly mine was broken in at some hundreds of clicks, and from the beginning didn't hurt on rides of around two hours. (And I came from a Cheeko90 seat, not a saddle at all, widely agreed by people who have tried it to be superbly comfortable. The Brooks was just an experiment at a time when SJS had a half price sale and Sheldon told me to try it, I could always sell the seat on for what I paid. I knew from the first time I rode it that I would be keeping the B73 and the matching Brooks leather grips.) I soaked my B73 in neatsfoot oil by standing it upside down in a baking dish and pouring in neatsfoot oil from the stable until it was covered; I removed the saddle and wiped it down after twenty minutes. Purists said that's the fast way to wreck a Brooks saddle but Sheldon and Jobst approved, and it worked well.

I have always believed that "no pain, no gain" is the mantra of people too stupid to find a solution to their problems. Plenty of them in cycling, of course, but despite their prevalence, the concept and the components for a comfortable bike are out there for those who want to look.

Old Man Jute

Danneaux

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Re: Old Man's tweaks
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2012, 05:20:27 PM »
<Psssst!  Pavel!>

There's much worth noting in Andre's posts. I strongly suspect he is just that little bit ahead of the rest of us in recognizing how to properly set-up a bicycle to hit the apex of the comfort x efficiency formula. Though we may fight it, though we strain and struggle against the inevitable, though we may pretend we are Racers and such...there is truth and there is Jute Truth, and I have a feeling we will all come 'round sooner or later...

Best,

Dan. (still engaged in Futile Resistance)

Relayer

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Re: Old Man's tweaks
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2012, 06:20:04 PM »
Dan. (still engaged in Futile Resistance)

me too   ;)

and black comfort bars look OK, another excuse going astray
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 06:22:17 PM by Relayer »

Pavel

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Re: Old Man's tweaks
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2012, 06:31:51 PM »
I really appreciate the comments and the input gents.  It has been a process. It is now very interesting to me at how just a very small change, affects the chain of changes and the results. Is is also remarkable how a different purpose may have a completely different and contradictory directions behind it.  I believe that it is important when experimenting to change only one thing at at time, but I get pretty disoriented because These changes don't work in a vacuum, right?  The range of option possibilities are confusing and as I get more learned - I know nothing!

I really wanted to avoid a setup like the one I'm heading towards.  I was only joking about the ego,  but I do have a problem because of the inefficiency, which also affects the comfort in a long ride by lenghning it.  That would be no problem except on a trip of the sort I'm aiming for often has time in the saddle dictated by the need to get to the next spot to sleep.  It is not always a choice of how fast or long to ride as it is now puttering getting practice miles in.  so while I WANT badly to slow down and enjoy the ride, I know that I still want to be able to go comfortably at a fast pace if the need arises, with comfort of course.  So I hope to find a way to have my slow pace cake but also to eat it! ;)

I wasted much effort trying to make my first two bikes into what the Nomad or Sherpa is naturally.  Setting the Fuji Tour up for an upright heavy tourer - nothing worked.  I used to always like my bikes with a very steep tube so I felt like I was right over the peddals (a thousand years ago)  I found it surprising that on the Fuji I was always wanting to push the seat back, adding to the relaxed seat-tube effect.  And I could never get far enough.  I was always sliding forward as well.  It is interesting (in a confusing way) that now that it has different duties (mostly leaning against a wall - but it is now to be my fast workout bike until I can afford something else) Yesterday I went out for a short forty minute ride where I basically went as fast as possible.  I set the Fuji up so that  the bars are about two inches under the seat, mostly to see if it would kill me with pain (seriously) and I found that the bike was so much better that way.  It worked!  
There was no hand pain, I was mostly pulling up on the bars. Hmmm.  And you know what else.  the seat felt waay too far back, the opposite of what I've been trying to battle.  Now it is almost at the opposite end near the back of the rail (they really should make a seat with longer rails!) and my legs are much more over the peddles.  It felt greeaaat!  It was the first time I didn't curse the Fuji.  My only adjustment left is to tilt the seat up a bit more and I'm going to go back to a drop bar, but one with a shallow drop and sti shifters.  So go figure!?  No secret revelations about how to set up a bike, no secret sauce at all.  

The notes on the saddles?  You are all just a bit ahead of me, as Dan noticed.  I was heading that way.  I've got five saddles.  The original fuji, three brooks B17's and an age B67, which of course has the springs.  I bought the B67 first but on the fuji where I could not sit upright enough I HATED the B67 and gave up on it after about 400 miles.  I think it is time to try it on the Atlas, the old man Nomad, don't ya think?  I will let you all know how that goes after a few weeks of giving it a fair try.

I would like to mention a bit of a suprise of mine about the brooks saddles.  I really like them and wont likely ever go to anything else but a leather saddle (but never say never) but I am nothing short of amazed how different the three B17's are.  Sure they are a natural man made thing ...but like I said these are night and day different in feel.  The best one paradoxically is the brown one that I ordered with the Nomad.  How could one skip on such a deal - a Brooks for twenty pounds, right?  I told myself that I would go to my daughter, but I like it so much that she will now have to earn it - if she can.  It was thinking a week or so breakfast in bed ... but I digress.  That natural tan B17 seemed comfy without any need for breaking in.  I have the same B17 in Black, which I bought after the B67 didn't work out.  It seems to be a slightly different shape (maybe though it is my imagination) and the leather feels less compliant.  It has had the most miles and while I can see progress, it sure needs more miles, is how it feels.  Last is my green  B17 special.  It came with the moulton and looks really pretty with the bikes british racing-green-wanna-be color.  I swear that this seat is skinnier.  The curves on it even look different and I slide forward on this one unless I really tilt the nose up, a bit too much for comfort, if ya know what I mean!  So now I've got a question.  I noticed that the green saddle is more taught.  Do you all think that loosening the tension may be good for me/it?  How much, I wonder, could I accelerate that aging process by loosening it a lot to near how they get after a few years?  Or would that be dumb?  I kind of assumed that the seat gods at Brooks would know best and it would come in perfect tune I dunno.

Lastly; I have heard at various times over the years that spraying the leather saddle with a misting of water helps wear it in faster and am about to start applying that theory.  Any thoughts?  I'll let you know if my actions create more business for Mr brooks.  If I ever do try another model it will likely be the Sprung Flyer or perhaps the imperial with the slit in the leather.  But a few weeks on the B67 first.  I wonder how that will go.

Thanks for all the suggestions and please keep em a comming.  The collective experience here at the forum is a treasure! :)

Danneaux

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Re: Old Man's tweaks
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2012, 07:06:09 PM »
Pavel,

I have found my Brooks saddles -- being largely the result and construction of a natural product (leather) -- vary widely. I have a B.17 in the "sell on eBay" box I carefully re-riveted with Brooks' best copper rivets that looks sooooo fine, but alas, is too soft for my needs. 'Just beginning to dish under my ischial tuberosities (sit bones). My hardest is a B.17 Champion Special in honey-brown belt-leather thickness with skived edges and the "will break, just a matter of when" chrome rails.

I find I prefer a harder B.17 to the softer ones, and tend to sell them just as most people would crave them. Hmm. There may be a market for Danneau's Break-In Service. For those taking note, my favorite is the plain old B.17 Standard. In black. My comments apply to them specifically and Brooks generally.

At any rate, Brooks saddles do vary, Pavel. Some are skewed. Some are made from slightly thicker cuts of leather, according to my digital caliper. Some have barb-wire scars and such that tension the leather, and -- yes! As you suspected! -- the initial bolt tension does vary a bit as well. There isn't a single magical setting, but a "by eye" calculation by the maker. Some are tighter or looser thanks to error aggregation...they are riveted at one extreme or the other of their hole tolerances and so leave the shop more or less taut.

I am a traditionalist, so much so, I mourn the loss of red Proofide, which really was different (and I cannot be convinced otherwise). The white paste that passes for Proofide now is simply not the same, and lacks the exquisite parfum of the original. I've never done drugs, but I swear a person could get high off the original, the smell was that good. But then, I also follow my late maternal grandfather in loving the smell of hot-tar, fresh asphalt, and skunk. Road-kill isn't bad. Go figure.

To hear if such Brooks treatments as Neatsfoot or motor oil causes me to erupt in a deprecating moue of protest, but I do admit it gives stellar results for some and the great number of saddles treated this way indicate it can't be fatal to the leather. Truly, to each his own; if it works for oneself, that's all what matters.

Pavel, I'd be interested in hearing how it goes with loosening the tension bolt. I would hesitate myself, based in my experience re-riveting a number of these saddles (the large copper rivets looked prettier and don't rust, unlike the earlier generations of poorly-plated small steel rivets. They're better now and don't rust, so they get to stay on my recent saddles). When you loosen the tension bolt prematurely and by design, the saddle is de-tensioned, meaning that under the load of a rider's weight, the sides flare. The real trick with a B.17 is to try and keep the sides narrow whilst creating little dishes for your sit-bones. If the saddle flares unduly between the legs, well, it's all over prematurely. Then, Drastic Measures such as hole-punching the sides and lacing them together are called for, else one's thighs will rub and chafe. <-- This is initially wonderful for the ego (Look! I've cycled so much I've developed Sprinter's Thigh!), but is not so great in practice when those same-said thighs begin to chafe and bleed (yes, it happens).

As for water, I am not thoroughly convinced, but I have come to a growing accommodation it may not be as bad for the leather as we might think. My former neighbor, Toshihiko, brought-back from dead a number of secondhand saddles by soaking them in a bucket of water and reshaping them as they dried. It has been about 15 years but as I recall, be de-tensioned them, soaked them, then hung them to dry in a cool-dry place to avoid mildew and mold, binding the sides together at the "neck" (narrow part of the shaft leading to the nose) with old t-shirts (stretchy cotton). When thoroughly dry, he re-Proofided them and was good to go. I wouldn't have laid bets on one old Ideale 90 he found for his Herse replica, but it came out fine. One thing to keep in mind: Wetted (or wet) leather does stretch, but it also dries, so be sure to re-treat it in some way, however lightly.

Also, excess application of any leather treatment leads to stretching and advanced shape-molding well ahead of what would naturally occur, and sometimes (often) it.does.not.stop. It just keeps going, and then one is riding a hammock, not a saddle. This is all something to keep in mind if you prefer a harder, stiffer saddle as I do.

Hope this helps,

Dan.

Andre Jute

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Re: Old Man's tweaks
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2012, 01:54:24 AM »
<Psssst!  Pavel!>

There's much worth noting in Andre's posts. I strongly suspect he is just that little bit ahead of the rest of us in recognizing how to properly set-up a bicycle to hit the apex of the comfort x efficiency formula. Though we may fight it, though we strain and struggle against the inevitable, though we may pretend we are Racers and such...there is truth and there is Jute Truth, and I have a feeling we will all come 'round sooner or later...

Best,

Dan. (still engaged in Futile Resistance)

Time's winged arrow flies in only one direction. Unfortunately. I reckon, with others here, that if a bit of comfort on your bike keeps you cycling past your physiotherapist's sell-by date (two who treated me have retired and I'm still cycling), who cares whether your bike looks like a roadie dream.

"The Jute Truth." LOL. Sounds like a shock-jock on radio.

Andre Jute

Danneaux

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Re: Old Man's tweaks
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2012, 02:15:39 AM »
Quote
if a bit of comfort on your bike keeps you cycling...who cares whether your bike looks like a roadie dream
Wise words, Andre. 100% agreement.

"Outliving your doctors is the best revenge." I've done it a number of times and am happy to be riding after some past fatal diagnoses and prognoses were proven wrong.

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 02:32:05 AM by Danneaux »