Author Topic: Sherpa Mk3  (Read 24163 times)

jlg

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Sherpa Mk3
« on: February 19, 2012, 05:40:29 PM »
I was favouring an LHT over a Sherpa when I came across a Sherpa MK3 frame in the on-line shop, which sounds very exciting, available in June 2012. There are no details other than colours and sizes. I suspect the frame will be based on the Raven - Anyone know anything concrete?

Danneaux

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Re: Sherpa Mk3
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2012, 05:55:12 PM »
You're right; it does appear something is coming. There's a placeholder at SJS Cycles here:
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-sherpa-mk3-frame-red-prod27981/
...and...
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-sherpa-frames-dept664/

Google's spiderbot site indexer managed to find this reference...
Quote
Thorn Thorn Sherpa MK3 Step Through Frame - Black. Thorn Sherpa MK3 Step Through Frame - Black; £499.00. Thorn Thorn Sherpa MK3 Step Through Frame
...making me wonder if the MK3 might be (or include) a Mixte or step-through version. At this point, it appears they'll be available in black and in red, regardless of other particulars.

Oh, the game's afoot! Exciting stuff, and sharp eyes, jlg!

Best,

Dan.

Danneaux

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Re: Sherpa Mk3
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2012, 09:13:30 PM »
Given we have nothing in the way of details, this opens the door for rampant speculation.  What might a Mark 3 Sherpa look like? The very thought of a new model gets the brain juices flowing, and it is a long time till June.

Would it be a refinement of the present model? The present geometry is well-proven, and adding sizes (what's missing?) would not seem enough to deserve an entirely new designation. I can't see a change in component spec being enough to warrant the new designation.

More of the same, but...more? Perhaps a "severe duty" option with the Nomad's double-plate fork and a suspension-optional frame geometry? headtube-downtube gussets? Disc brake mounts? All while keeping a derailleur orientation?

We might see a design using something akin to the new Schmidt SL aluminum fork for a wire-free dynohub installation (insulated, conductive plates on the inner dropout faces mate with the Schmidt SL or SL Disc hub; internal wiring and a connector exiting the base of the steerer connect to the lights. Versions of the SL system are currently available to framebuilders for inclusion on their own forks, which can be made of steel. Even existing forks can be modified. Alignment is critical as both conductors are in the right dropout. See: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/schmidt-sl.asp ).

What would differentiate it enough from the present iteration to make it worthy of a "Mark 3" designation? Heavier tubing, with the Mk3 being akin to the Nomad while the existing Sherpa soldiers on as a lighter model more like the Raven Tour, but with derailleurs instead of Rohloff? A Mixte or step-through frame as I wondered above? Complete abandonment of derailleurs by making the Sherpa Mk3 Rohloff-specific? Do Thorn still make enough derailleur-bike sales to justify keeping them, or are Thorn becoming the company known for Rohloff bikes?

However it might change, it must still have enough ties to the original to keep the Sherpa name, so the change might be more a range expansion or refinement -- evolutionary rather than revolutionary, as with other generational changes across the line. Maybe a "complete solution", pre-equipped with every possible option as a "halo model" in the line, with Schmidt dynohub and lighting already attached with a dyno charger and only-topline options as standard? Perhaps a commemorative edition?

Going from domestic fillet brazing to overseas TiG welding occasioned some past changes in model designation, and even retirement of some models and introduction of others. Does anyone else remember the Brevet that was offered alongside the Audax in 2001? (I wanted a Thorn for awhile before I got Sherpa last August  ;)).

Thorn have taken care to differentiate its models despite a proliferation in overall numbers. Each model has its own specific frame sizes and tubing specs and geometry. Tubing diameter even differs by frame size range (in the case of Sherpas, at least). This has worked out well for Thorn the company and Thorn customers, as it is responsive and allows the greatest opportunity to find the "perfect" bike for a given need and size.

Still, I have always wondered at the absence of a "universal" touring Thorn model that sits astride the derailleur/Rohloff divide by being either or both.

Dutch brand Avaghon have managed it by fitting the sliding Rohloff frame ends with a choice of dropouts and cable stops/guides. My friend selected their "Series 26" model set-up for derailleurs and it arrived with derailleur-specific rear dropouts and hanger, while the Rohloff-specific bosses all remained. To handle the derailleur cabling, bespoke plastic stops were bolted to threaded bosses. It sounds horrible, but the end result looks really outstanding, and allows for maximum flexibility. At any point in the future, he can convert to a Rohloff bike by fitting a new rear wheel, appropriate cabling, and shifter. By the same token, a Rohloff-configured frame could take a full set of derailleurs and a cassette rear wheel in the extremely unlikely event of a complete Rohloff failure. It would even be possible to convert the same frame back and forth as desired, though it would be time-consuming, unwieldy, and expensive. Besides, more people seem to go derailleur --> Rohloff than the other way 'round.

Still, it would be possible to make a Sherpa or other Thorn bike in this same basic way, provided the appropriate bosses were available and it would also require a new (bespoke) right-rear dropout with integral derailleur hanger. The current (vertical) left-rear dropout would work for either iteration, as would the eccentric bottom bracket. This is a path I would consider when selecting a frame, and as a Rohloff specialist, Thorn might well pick up the equivalent in value from standalone aftermarket sales of complete Rohloff conversion kits (Thorn discounts parts heavily when they are included as  standard or as a listed option for a specific model as complete builds).

Any other prognosticators out there?

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 10:48:19 PM by Danneaux »

rualexander

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Re: Sherpa Mk3
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2012, 10:35:05 PM »
Looking at the frame sizes on the page linked to above gives a clue that the new model will have at least a more sloping top tube. The largest size is going to be 600 compared to the current 610, so presumably this is due to more slope.

Danneaux

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Re: Sherpa Mk3
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2012, 11:23:37 PM »
Quote
a clue that the new model will have at least a more sloping top tube
Good call. Here's how the sizes compare:
             Sherpas
Current               Mk3
460S
460XL    
...........................475M
485L
...........................500S
...........................500L
510S
510XL
...........................530S
...........................530L
535L
560S
560XL
...........................565S
...........................565L
585L
...........................600S
...........................600L
610S
610XL

Available sizes appear to drop from 11 to 9, with all but the smallest in "Short" and "Long" top tube versions, further indicating a redesign across the line, rather than a rationalization of old sizes as was the case with the current model (where effectively S = Short, L=Medium and XL=Long).

I notice SJS Cycles show some sizes of the current model Sherpa as out-of-stock, including the 460S and 560S. This may reflect normal periodic lowering of stock (popular sizes) subject to reorder and restocking of inventory, as it would be a long wait for them if the only replacements are Mk3s with a due date of June. Neither the 535L or the 610XL currently appear in the drop-down menu for the current model.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 01:04:25 AM by Danneaux »

Relayer

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Re: Sherpa Mk3
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2012, 08:40:42 AM »
OK, here goes with some speculation/imagination ... largely inspired by Dan's thoughts above ...

I imagine a really nice Mk3 Sherpa being a 'universal tourer' having front suspension and disc brake capability a la the Nomad Mk2, and derailleur to Rohloff capability as well, or even to Alfine 11 speed (thinking Surly Troll here).

Such a bike would be an obvious replacement for the Sterling which has disappeared as a complete bike option, and also the Ripio (three showroom/demonstrator models being sold off on SJSC) - rationalisation which would make sense in the current economic climate.

jlg

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Re: Sherpa Mk3
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2012, 12:37:18 PM »
I agree that in this climate, that new Sherpa would probably rationalise a few models, and be something of a Raven Tour with a derailleur and accommodate wider tyres. Twin plate fork with suspension option and rear disc mount would seem inevitable.

I'd like to see a longer head tube (less spacers), more adventurous colours (Tonka yellow/orange!), much better graphics than the Audax Mk3, and a lightweight version like the Nomad X (is that being too hopeful!)

badger1

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Re: Sherpa Mk3
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2012, 05:11:10 PM »
Interesting ... very much what I'm hoping for. I'd like to see a Sherpa that is dedicated still to derailleur gearing, but with the following features:

1.  Suspension corrected geometry (not essential, but would be nice).
2.  ISO rear disc mount
3.  Available in either 'heavy duty' or X-frame tubing (// current Nomad).

In other words, a derailleur version of the current Nomad that, according as to one's intentions, could be built up either as a quickish commuting/on/off-road/light touring bike, or as a full-on on/off road/expedition touring bike.

rualexander

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Re: Sherpa Mk3
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2012, 06:00:05 PM »
One thing that I would expect would be the brazed on fittings such as rack mounts etc. to be in stainless steel as they are on the Audax mk3 and other models (are they stainless on the Raven Tour now?) as this is an issue on the current Sherpa where rust can get a hold. Also I expect they will change to 6mm rack mounts.
As for some of the other points mentioned above, I personally would not like to see the Sherpa 'beefed up' beyond it's current already sturdy nature.

macspud

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Re: Sherpa Mk3
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2012, 08:43:24 PM »
Rualexander,
I'm not sure of it being the case of a 600 meaning a more sloping top tube as the sizes are usually virtual sizes as in the 610 being actually 545mm seat tube C to C the 610 being the virtual length C to C as if there was a horizontal top tube.
It would seem to me that they are taking the smallest and biggest sizes out of the range. That probably makes sense to them as will be the less commonly ordered sizes.
It would be a shame though if this is the case, from talking to them in the past it was suggested that the only thorn that would truly fit me is the Nomad II (620L) because of my size (too tall and heavy). But I think I can get away with models that go to 610.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 12:26:14 AM by macspud »

rualexander

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Re: Sherpa Mk3
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2012, 09:10:14 PM »
Rualexander,
I'm not sure of it being the case of a 600 meaning a more sloping top tube as the sizes are usually virtual sizes as in the 610 being actually 545mm seat tube C to C the 610 being the virtual length C to C as if there was a horizontal top tube.
Ah, yes you are right, my mistake.
So what can be deduced from the reduction in frame size from 610 to 600? Lower front end and standover height? Not something I would like to see.

macspud

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Re: Sherpa Mk3
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2012, 09:18:10 PM »
Ah, yes you are right, my mistake.
So what can be deduced from the reduction in frame size from 610 to 600? Lower front end and standover height? Not something I would like to see.

Ah you might be right, but as the small end is getting bigger I'd say it's more likely doing away with the biggest and smallest sizes as they are less commonly ordered. If I am correct I think it is a mistake.

rualexander

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Re: Sherpa Mk3
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2012, 11:30:07 PM »
Reducing the size of the largest frame would be bad news indeed, I have a 610S and I am 6'2", I would not have bought anything smaller and would be looking away from Thorn towards a Surly LHT  or custom frame if I was in the market again.

Danneaux

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Re: Sherpa Mk3
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2012, 03:32:41 PM »
A quick check of the SJS Cycles site this morning shows all model Sherpa Mk3 frames are "Out of stock. More due on 09/06/12". Unless temporary, this pushes back the date of introduction from June to September.  Same message for the step-through frame version as well.

A number of sizes of the present design are also out-of-stock, with no due-date announced. I wonder if they'll remain so, pending replacement with the new Mk3?

I suppose Thorn may have reserved a number of the retail frames to complete orders for built-up bikes...

Best,

Dan.

rualexander

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Re: Sherpa Mk3
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2012, 05:24:57 PM »
Dan,
09/06/12 is the 9th of June, we do dates differently from you guys!