Author Topic: Paint RST fork crown  (Read 5370 times)

davefife

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Paint RST fork crown
« on: January 12, 2012, 09:44:21 AM »
Rust on my RST fork crown was bad enough for me to email R Thorn, see below photo link and email exchange with his advice in italics.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/108211464467430094768/albums/5696666220353694977

Please see the attached photos that show where the forks on my RST are
rusting.  Its the fork crown/fork blade area and the rust is now well
through the paint.  The other photo is the small piece of frame tube behind
the bottom bracket area that the rear mudguard bolts into.

Grateful for your advice/thoughts on this, bike is now nearly 6 years
old.  I write about this as I have a Reynolds
531 road bike that i bought new in 1979 and have used a lot! Its got no rust
at the brazed lugs at all, and I know the forks are 531 so suspect its the
refinishing thats not so good.

>> It may be that the paint applied more recently does not have the same
frame preparation, this is due to more recent legislation about allowable
products and the environment, this applies to Taiwan as well as here!
As with any paint on a vehicle, it's important to touch up rust spots when
they first show, our 6 year old Mercedes van has rusted through in more than
one place where we have failed to attend to the paint around the windows,
this is not stone chips but ingress of water under the paint.

You should remove ALL the loose paint and flaky rust and apply a commercial
product such as Kurerust,

 then some red oxide, then a near match top coat such as Humbrol enamel.

Posting for information more than a moan, as SJS customer service is always A1, anyway else got rust on their frame?  I recall a thread some time back about the variance in paint quality across the frame range.

Cheers
Dave
 

Cambirder

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Re: Paint RST fork crown
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2012, 02:39:06 PM »
Personally I would consider getting a professional respray. You will end up with a nice new looking bike for around £100 in any colour you like. I'm thinking oh having my Dawes Galaxy done, its not rusty but a lot of the clear lacquer if pealing so it don't look to pretty, but then again its a good theft deterrent.


Danneaux

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Re: Paint RST fork crown
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2012, 06:11:52 PM »
Hi Dave,

As one who has found something similar on a past bicycle and then had to deal with it, I can't help but offer a bit of sympathy and empathy.  A person just feels kinda sick, looking at it.

Now, to causes and solutions...

Yes, I agree with Robin that recent environmental legislation worldwide has made paint/finish preparation not what it was, and it is important to touch-up paint and convert rust soonest.  Local conditions can play havoc as well -- high humidity and salted roads are just deadly to a steel frame, and can get the tinworms started tunneling under the paint.  Fenders generally help a lot (provided they don't rattle against paint at their edges), as does making sure all cable housings are tied-down and riding against scuff pads.

However, where your photos all show rust around the lugs and and brazed bits (see the chainstay bridge at the fender-mounting boss), it makes me wonder if the original problem might have been due to inadequate rinsing/washing of the flux used in brazing.  That was the cause of lug-proximate rusting on an other-brand frame I owned, and there were no other exacerbating or contributing factors except generally poor paint (20 years after purchase, the clear-coat never set-up and would still become gummy after the bike sat in the sun on a hot day).  Paint tends to be thinnest on the edges of the pointy bits, leaving those same edges especially vulnerable.  It is an area of frame preparation I watch ever so carefully as a hobbyist framebuilder.  I've tried a gasfluxer when brazing, which pretty much solves the problem before it starts, but anytime a powder-mixed paste flux is used -- with the higher temps needed for brass, especially -- one has to really watch it, as it can harden to a clear, glass-like surface that can later rehydrate beneath the paint and cause problems.  It can be hard to see, and it really takes boiling water to remove it properly in a short timeframe.

I agree, the "cure" is to remove as much rust as possible (a soft-media blasting using something like broken walnut shells would prevent surface-hardening of the steel while removing any loose rust).  Later treatment with a rust converter (my favorite is Ospho http://www.ospho.com/ ) will not only stop any remaining rust, but prepare the surface with a light etching so paint can better bond to the surface.

If your frame was powder-coated, that has its own perils as well.  Now often a necessity because of those same enviro-regs, melted plastic sometimes just does not bond as well as wet-paint.  For example, the first time I removed the rear wheel on my Sherpa, the paint lifted off the entire inside-left dropout face in one sheet, fluttering to the ground with the wheel.  A quick swipe of Ospho on the unprimered bare steel, an overnight dry, then a retouch with semi-flat Krylon over primer, and I'm good to go. I went with the satin black option so I could quickly make near-invisible finish repairs on-tour, if necessary (I tuck in my little bottle of touch-up paint as part of my regular touring kit).

The good news (yes, there is some!) is the steel doesn't look at all bad in your photos -- some surface rust yes, but no bubbling or flaking I can see.  If you can get on this sharpish, I really think the frame is not imperiled and a respray in part or whole will make it fine.  If a professional resto and respray is out of the question, it is possible to do a home-based prep and wet-paint respray and still have a durable paint job, even with less-aggressive paint formulations.  I took on that task with my tandem, which had as much bare metal as paint when I bought it used.  It's been close to 20 years now, and my respray shows no chips or rust.  Same with the others I've painted.

Hope this helps, Dave.  A real shame this happened, but really good chances for a complete recovery of the patient with a long and healthy lifespan ahead.

Best,

Dr. (not the medical kind!) Dan.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 06:41:26 PM by Danneaux »

Relayer

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Re: Paint RST fork crown
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2012, 09:31:37 AM »
Dave

I also have rust on the side of the fork crown of my RST, almost identical to yours.  My bike is less than 30 months old, it was a display model before that though.



I will check the rest of the frame next time I wash the bike, but didn't notice any other problems previously.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 09:52:45 AM by Relayer »

davefife

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Re: Paint RST fork crown
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2012, 06:39:43 PM »
That is not good, I suppose ex display excludes you to warranty claim. I would get this treated as soon as.
I am not going for a respray as the overall paint finish is lasting up well. The brazing flux makes perfect sense as any welding/heating/fusion will introduce impurities that will be trapped under the paint coats unless they are fastidiously removed, unlikely in a commercial frame shop. Thanks for the advice - very comprehensive:)
 

Relayer

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Re: Paint RST fork crown
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2012, 09:25:10 AM »
My initial thoughts are: get a Dremel to take the crap off, and apply Hammerite Direct to Rust paint.  I suspect it may not be the prettiest finish, but this bike is all about function over form anyway.

Powder coating seems to be cheap enough but mixed [re]views on forums and on here deter me, in any case I don't have the technical ability to strip her down to frame and forks and subsequently rebuild (additional hassle plus mechanic & transportation costs).

I don't want to get her stove enamelled because I probably wouldn't have kept this frame long term anyway, I would prefer a bigger size and S+S or drop bar versions or even more radical alternatives are always a temptation.

Hopefully the Hammerite DTR will buy me a couple of years to save up and ponder which direction I want to go longer term, has anybody here got experience of using this stuff?

Danneaux

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Re: Paint RST fork crown
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2012, 09:57:03 AM »
Quote
Hopefully the Hammerite DTR will buy me a couple of years to save up and ponder which direction I want to go longer term, has anybody here got experience of using this stuff?

Yes and yes, respectively. 

I would suggest you still get out the Dremel and little wire-brush attachment and try to remove as much loose/surface rust as possible before applying the Hammerite DTR.  Even scraping the rust with a knife blade till it is shiny would help.  It won't be pretty, but you will get better results with the "smooth" finish rather than the "hammered" finish.  It can be sort of "flowed" on and will self-level to a degree.  It can go far toward filling the little side windows in your fork crown, so use care.   Be warned, "smooth" does not mean "glossy".  In some markets, there is a claim this will stop rust coming through the paint for 5 years.  In my experience, this directly correlates with the amount of rust removed before application, so it does pay to put some effort into it.  I got lazy and painted some on the storm door hinges of my coastal vacation cottage.  It lasted about 10 months in the weather and salt air before breaking through.  I put that down to poor preparation on my part; I think with care it might have lasted a couple years.

Relayer, you could mask the crown and probably get a pretty nice looking result using a silver color.  Dave's is a bit beyond that, I'm afraid, but the rust can still be halted in place before any structural damage occurs.

If these were frames you wished to keep (or keep as high in value as possible for resale), then it would pay to clean off the rust yourself and convert whatever remains from iron oxide to iron phosphate using a solution intended for that purpose.  It is possible an automotive body panel repair shop might allow you a teaspoonful of the stuff if you bring your own little plastic container.  Just follow the application instructions published online for one of the commercial preparations.  The solutions have great wetting ability, and that amount should cover the lot with spare left over.  The big advantage is the rust is stopped from spreading and the surface is prepared all at once, so any paint touch-ups will last much longer and you won't have to worry about rust recurring in the places you've treated.

Hope this helps,

Dan.

Relayer

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Re: Paint RST fork crown
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2012, 10:24:13 AM »
Dan

Thank you, an extremely helpful contribution, as always.

I will definitely take the Dremel to the affected area in any case and remove as much rust as possible before doing anything else.

I have so far been unable to find a retailer who supplies Kurerust (not much even from Google for this!) and Ospho seems to be supplied in industrial quantities.  What I have found so far is 'Jenolite' and Hammerite Red Oxide, but if I am battering the metal with the Dremel rather than using walnut shells (haven't a clue where to begin to source these!) the Hammerite DTR (black, dark green or silver) seems to be the optimum way to top off a less than perfect preparation where a less than perfect finish is acceptable.

Thanks again Dr Dan.

P.S. Found Hammerite Kurust, ordered along with Hammerite Red Oxide & Humbrol Enamel ... going to do the job properly, looking forward to it   ;D
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 02:55:53 PM by Relayer »