Author Topic: Belt Drive with Rohloff  (Read 10803 times)

Andre Jute

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Belt Drive with Rohloff
« on: October 21, 2009, 07:05:13 pm »
Belt drive?

Seems good enough to break the round the world record. I'm sure it's a much better solution than a fully enclosed chain. I'd be interested to know whether Thorn have considered the option.

I looked at the belt drive. Santos, a Dutch bike manufacturer who builds a touring bike in the Raven class, and a variety of other bikes, a longtime Rohloff fan too, has a working proto and are working with Gates, the makers of the belt drive, to develop it.

A few points are worth noting.

1. The belt is manufactured a continuous closed run. There is no facility for breaking it like a chain. You therefore need a special frame with a split stay to fit the drive belt.

2. There is thus very little chance of the belt drive being retrofitted to a conventional bike you already own. Manufacturers who want to keep faith with existing customers (among other things by offering them retrofits whenever possible) will be wary.

3. All the available fittings (special "chainwheel" and special "sprocket) appear to be for internal hub or single speed gears. Gates and Santos both recommend Rohloff. So the belt drive is clearly headed, at least at first, for the most expensive bikes.

4. The belt drive is clean and oil-less, essentially maintenance free, sure enough. But from the Santos and Gates netsites you get the distinct feeling that they aren't aiming at tourers or commuters but at mudpluggers. The Santos proto is a mudracer.

5. Belt drive has had outings before. Bridgestone offered one within living memory, at least in the States (I have no personal experience). It didn't take off.

6. The Gates type is claimed to be the first belt drive to be stretch-free. It is built on carbon fibres as the dimension-stabilizing element. No intended service life is given (that I could see anyway on either the Dutch Santos or Gates sites), but a belt drive that pretty much forces the buyer to use a Rohloff hub had better have a service life at least as long as a Rohloff sprocket (both sides). I don't imagine that Santos would get involved in something flimsy or fragile. From photographs and description the materials and workmanship of the belt drive both seem first class. (You just know from looking at the prototypes that the price will also be first class...) However, a prototype is one thing; the devil is in the productionizing.

7. From the photographs the most striking feature is that there is no tensioning device supplied with the belt drive. Let me say that again: no integrated tensioning device. The frame must have some method of moving the sprocket and crankwheel closer together for fitting the belt drive and then apart again for tensioning, which most purpose-built Rohloff frames already have, and all bikes with long(ish) horizontal slots. Gates are so certain of marketing the belt drive, they are already working on their installation manual, and there is a clear warning against levering the  belt on with a screwdriver: it has to be sliders or an ECC.

8. Aesthetically, belt drive could make for a very clean frame, depending on how you handle the split in the stay and the sliding capability. Thorn already has the eccentric bottom bracket for the sliding capability. That might be an expensive way to achieve correct tension if a truly stretch-free belt drive is fitted, because the slider-facility would be used once to install the belt drive, and then not again until it is replaced. But aesthetically, an EBB is the cleanest possible Rohloff installation, and belt drive installation too.

HTH.

Hobbes

Andre Jute

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Re: Belt Drive with Rohloff
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2009, 07:07:18 pm »
This additional information is from a letter by Mike Jacoubowsky of www.ChainReactionBicycles.com  (the Californian one rather than the one in Belfast). Mike is a very experienced roadie and bike dealer, and I quote him here because he has actually ridden a belt-drive bike. -- Hobbes

MIKE JACOUBOWSKY ON RIDING WITH A BELT DRIVE

*******

What's cool about the current belt drive bikes, from my own personal experience, is what's missing.

You simply have no concept of how much a chain imparts to the feel of a bike until you ride one with a belt. You don't know "smooth" until you try one.

[A drivebelt compared to a chain] *is* lower maintenance, but it's not lower cost. Belts will run around $100 and lifespan could be as little as 6,000 miles ([Gates, makers of the drivebelt, are] not totally clear on that).  But the positive side is that it is, in fact, much lower maintenance. The belt doesn't have to be lubed, the cog & chainwheel should last almost forever, and the belt apparently doesn't vary in efficiency throughout its life. So you just slap on a new belt every 6,000 miles or so and you're good to go. No more drivetrain cleanings. No mess transporting the bike.

But seriously, those things aren't as attractive to me as the different feel. You just have to ride one and see if it's for you or not.
 
*******

geocycle

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Re: Belt Drive with Rohloff
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2009, 09:21:49 am »
This is a very useful summary.  It would be very intersting to know what the experts make of belt drives versus chains.  I'd be tempted except the inability to seperate it would be a major problem and mean that retro-fits would be practically impossible.  How do Santos get around this when the belt needs changing?
 

julk

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Re: Belt Drive with Rohloff
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2009, 10:45:57 am »
I have S&S couplings which make my main frame splittable.

It must be within the bounds of possibility for S&S to produce a smaller dimension coupling which could be retrofitted into the seat or chain stay to permit removal of a small section of the stay and allow fitting/replacement of a belt.

You are talking money, but as said, these belt drives are aimed at expensive long lasting bikes, and if they are as good to ride as quoted...

PH

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Re: Belt Drive with Rohloff
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2009, 12:07:52 pm »
There were a few examples of these belts at the Cycle Show, including the lovely looking Tout Terrain, the Santos and a couple of single speeds.  Interesting, but I wouldn't want to try it till it'd been better tested and evaluated.  You're also a hostage to the one belt producing company, I wouldn't touch it till there were a choice of suppliers.  I also note that Rohloff are saying the belt hubs are only going to be available OEM, so I presume there'll be no conversion offered.
The Van Nicholas Rohloff Amazon is being offered with the belt drive, I've had a play on their bike builder, the frame, crankset, sprocket and belt are all costly upgrades, the difference between chain and belt drive comes to around 300 Euros!  Considering the belt alone is a 50 Euro upgrade and the recommended lifespan is less than I'm getting from a £9 chain, it's a lot of money for what doesn't seem to be a lot of advantage.
That doesn't stop me wanting to try one!
Quote
belt drive that pretty much forces the buyer to use a Rohloff hub had better have a service life at least as long as a Rohloff sprocket
The Trek Soho is an Alfine hub Hybrid with this belt, RRP of £700;
http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/urban/soho/soho/

I think Trek also do a single speed and sports version.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 12:09:26 pm by PH »

vik

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Re: Belt Drive with Rohloff
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2009, 11:51:14 pm »
I've got to say the $16.00  8 spd chains on my IGH bikes are one of the items I'm not really looking for a performance increase on,  They last a long time, are cheap and easy to replace.  If you look at the maintenance intervals for a Rohloff bike being ridden from Alaska to the tip of South America the chain isn't a big headache on even a long tour like this.

I'm open to innovation hence the fact I own two Rohloff bikes and several specialty bikes like a Surly Pugsley and Surly Big Dummy.  My Santa Cruz Nomad is a state of the art full-suspension MTB - so I'm not a Luddite, but I keep reading the info coming out on the various belt drive systems trying to find something that's going to be really beneficial for my cycling.  I just haven't found it yet.

safe riding,

Vik
www.thelazyrando.com
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 11:42:07 pm by vik »
Safe riding,

Vik
www.thelazyrando.com

Andre Jute

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Re: Belt Drive with Rohloff
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2009, 02:43:20 am »
...the inability to seperate it would be a major problem and mean that retro-fits would be practically impossible.

I just don't see how an alteration that is likely to require repainting the frame can be economical.

... when the belt needs changing?

The frame needn't be split at all if it has elevated chainstays, which curve over the belt. There was a vogue for elevated chainstays a few years ago but I don't know that it reached touring bikes.

Quote
The Trek Soho is an Alfine hub Hybrid with this belt, RRP of £700;
http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/urban/soho/soho/

Anyone else notice the belt guard on the bike PH refers us to? I wonder what that is about, if the belt is as clean a Gates claim.

Hobbes


MilitantGraham

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Re: Belt Drive with Rohloff
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2009, 01:48:28 am »
Santa Cruz use a drop out/derailleur hanger to connect the seat stay to the chain stay on the Blur, like this...



...so by removing the hanger it would be possible to replace the belt, except that the Blur has got suspension with a varying chain length.
I don't know if any manufacturer use this type of hanger on a hardtail or constant chain length FS though.

PH

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Re: Belt Drive with Rohloff
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2009, 11:46:41 pm »

Anyone else notice the belt guard on the bike PH refers us to? I wonder what that is about, if the belt is as clean a Gates claim.

Hobbes



You could get your trousers caught in a clean belt just a easily as in a dirty chain...

MilitantGraham

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Re: Belt Drive with Rohloff
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2010, 09:10:20 am »
Custom built belt drive Rohloff.
http://www.head-for-the-hills.co.uk/news_5_1_10.htm
Not very clear from the pictures, but it looks like there's a join in the chainstay near the tyre.

riptoff

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Re: Belt Drive with Rohloff
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2010, 07:57:58 pm »
Trek are producing a belt drive bike, I saw it recently in a shop in Melbourne. Mike Burrows does not seem enthusiastic about belts saying they are OK for packaging machines; but I would think they are ideal for folders and commuter bikes. The chain is about 99% efficient at power transmission, so a belt could not come anywhere near this.
 

rualexander

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Re: Belt Drive with Rohloff
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2010, 09:26:50 pm »
I have S&S couplings which make my main frame splittable.

It must be within the bounds of possibility for S&S to produce a smaller dimension coupling which could be retrofitted into the seat or chain stay to permit removal of a small section of the stay and allow fitting/replacement of a belt.

You are talking money, but as said, these belt drives are aimed at expensive long lasting bikes, and if they are as good to ride as quoted...

Something like this : http://www.shandcycles.com/2010/02/23/carbondrive-beltdrives/

julk

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Re: Belt Drive with Rohloff
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2010, 09:25:03 am »
Rualexander,
Thanks for that Shand Cycles link, I must start saving up...
Julian.

wheezy

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Re: Belt Drive with Rohloff
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2010, 05:22:01 pm »
See here: http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/cycle-show-09-james-bowthorpes-santos-travelmaster-23585


More than 12,000 mile life, and a pretty good recommendation.