Author Topic: Copper Grease (CopaSlip)  (Read 15517 times)

jimmer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 98
Copper Grease (CopaSlip)
« on: January 04, 2009, 04:09:05 pm »
Hi Guys,

I'm interested to hear what Jawj says about dismantling of Hollowtech II bearings for a service. I'd always belived the injunction against doing so and refrained from poking around. This is a little irritating as I resent being kept out of areas that should be designed for self maintainance. To be obliged to replace the bearings, races and carriers on both sides of the BB seems designed to see the Big S through the recession rather than for ease of use (granted most people have years of trouble free use of 'em). Chris King bearings have a grease port for regular flushing and replacement, but at that price I'd expect the bloke himself to pop round whenever it needed doing. Anyway how do you go about it? Prising with a screwdriver? Cold-chisel and lump hammer? After all if it all goes the way of the pear new ones can be brought and the experiment considered an instance of instructive failure.

Despite this small reservation, replaceing HT II bearings is far preferable to replacing whole cartridge BB assemblies axles and all.

Next up Jawj, your opinion as a cycle mechanic. Bit of back story first. Up at Glentress SPDs being a real ball ache brought some V12s. Taking the SPDs off the old Deore Octalink cranks I stripped the pedal thread on the rhs, completely smooth. Thats when I got the HT IIs. Back in Brum I phoned an LBS to ask if they could rethread the stripped crank so I could pass it onto a mate. They said no (unsurprisingly given that the bore of the hole had been increased, then asked if I'd used copper grease in the assembly. I said I had. They said that'd learn me. I know from his posts on the forum that Stutho is a great fan of Cu grease, you mention slightly pricier anti-seize. Should I just content myself with Teflon grease? What's your view?

All the best, James
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 03:30:53 pm by stutho »
 

jawj

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 109
Copper Grease (CopaSlip)
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2009, 07:14:56 pm »
Don't dismiss Waxoyl just yet Podge. It definitely has its uses, it just needs to be used with a bit (lot!) of effort, i.e. stripping the frame down completely, though you could probably get away with leaving the headset cups in as they're the trickiest thing to remove and refit without a workshop. I particularly like the foaming version of Waxoyl (designed for inside car doors, etc.) as it gets in all the nooks.

Awooga! Awooga! Disclaimer warning!

+++++ Hollowtech II bearings are NOT user-serviceable and reusing them after reassembly is expressly NOT recommended. +++++

Erm...

Right, now that's out of the way: go for it! You may well find though that this is a purely temporary measure to be used in a pinch. It gets the bearings spinning again, but the seals will never be in the condition they were before your tiny flathead screwdriver went poking its nose in. I got a few more months of use out of a set of BB cups (or "Adaptor Unit" as Shimano like to call them) but they evenutally died. The Chris King external BBs are very nice (ten colours!), I'm sure, as are the ones made by Hope, especially their ceramic bearing number. If anybody has deeper pockets than me and fancies testing out these beautiful-looking Adaptor Units, please report back to us all as to how they hold up!

Jimmer and your pedal threads:
It's absolutely essential to use an anti-seize that is designed for the job in hand, and pedal threads are obviously particularly important as they tighten themselves up with use. I would advise, professionally at least, against using mere grease for this application. It's probably ok though, to be honest, but as with most things I'd take it apart once in a while, clean, and regrease. This could be done perhaps at the same service intervals as having your hubs serviced.

I'm surprised that the threads stripped even though you'd used copper grease! It should have done the job fine in this case, so not sure what the bods in the bike shop are on about.

Mind you, they don't seem to have heard of Heli-coils, which are magical devices that can be installed in crank arms to replace the damaged original pedal threads. Having said THAT though, they may have just said there was no way to put a new thread in as it can be a pig of a job and isn't usually worth it for cheaper cranks. Oh well, you're probably best off without them: HT2 is superior in pretty much every way so I'd just ditch even the idea of old Octalink.

I must admit to having not looked at the comparitive prices of Shimano anti-seize versus copperslip (I use both at just the right application rate so don't rush through tubs of the stuff, well, at home anyway...) but I seem to remember copperslip being regarded as an expensive substance. It certainly LOOKS bling...
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 03:31:52 pm by stutho »

Dave Whittle Thorn Workshop

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 582
    • Thorn Cycles
Which frame is it? We treat most bike frames with cavity wax before despatch.

Podge

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Time to come clean... The current bike in question is not a Thorn...  :o But I have been the proud owner of both a Thorn Club Tour and I still own a Commutour!!  ;D It was with these bikes that I first tried Waxoyl and the 'habit' stuck. And after searching online for Waxoyl advice I felt that only within these hallowed threads would I find trusty advice - and I have, from the likes of jawj and jimmer! Hopefully others will find their advice useful too. Any more Waxoyl or HT II thoughts are more than welcome!

stutho

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
Copper Grease (CopaSlip)
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2009, 12:46:02 am »
Re Copper grease

I can't understand why your LBS would thinks that cu grease would cause you to strip your pedal threads.  Using Cu grease helps greatly when using the hex keys in the anti clockwise direction.  (Twice as true if we are talking ali on steel.)  Normal (Teflon) grease is ok short term (< 1 Month) but NOT a good idea long term.  Anti-seize is just as good but more expensive.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 03:48:22 pm by stutho »

jimmer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 98
Copper Grease (CopaSlip)
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2009, 03:52:05 pm »
Perhaps a Cu grease thread may be needed.

The guy at the LBS claimed that Cu grease would form a weld / adhesive layer between the CrMo pedal spindle and the Al alloy crank arm. If the Cu grease really is the culprit then the only mechanisms that I can suggest for this effect are as follows:

Under intense pressure Cu ions migrate into both of the other metals thus welding them. Given that alloys are formed through melting the constituent metals I'm not at all sure about this one.

The layer formed as the Cu particles suspended in the grease base are smeared between the threads exerts and electrostatic adhesive force. If this is the case why is Cu grease recommended, after many years reliable use, for threaded assembly use in high torque applications?

Could it be that the relative electronegativities of Fe - Cu - Al leads to some adhesive forces being generated and is this a particular application that should be avoided?

Should I stop worrying and just get on with work?

This is from the property sheet for a Dutch manufactured Cu grease (the first that came up on Google):

"MPM Copper Paste is based on micro-size particles of copper in a non-melt bentone grease base. Because of its
unique blend, the following properties are obtained:
- Rapid and easy assembly of threaded parts.
- Reduces torque.
- Prevents seizing and galling.
- Gives quick and easy breakout of threads and gaskets, even after long exposure to high
temperatures up to 1100 °C or corrosive conditions and extreme surface pressures.
- Reduces wear in areas of high friction.
- Is not affected by acids or salt.
- Is not washed away by water."

All compelling reasons for following Stutho's lead and using lashings (at the appropriate application rate) of the stuff. I merely pass on the comments of an otherwise very knowledgable and helpful LBS, a rare thing in Brum.

Yours, James
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 03:48:35 pm by stutho »
 

jawj

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 109
Copper Grease (CopaSlip)
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2009, 12:13:59 pm »
Hi all,

I was very interested to read your theories, James, they certainly made me dredge up the little-used remnants of chemistry still lodged in my brain somehwere! It all seems plausible, with galvanic corrosion being the most likely culprit. I get the feeling that the repespective metals (copper, iron, aluminium, titamium) shouldn't actually be in contact: the grease carrier for the copperslip should prevent metal to metal contact. Over time, with salty water ingress and the gradual self-tightening of the pedals, any anti-seize is simply forced away resulting in the metals coming in to contact and corrosion occuring.

There does seem to be a way to prevent this from happening and that may well be regular maintenance. Yeah, I know, that's exactly the kind of comment you'd expect from a mechanic, but I've had several cases over the years where I've had to admit defeat when people have wanted pedals replaced and there was simply NO WAY the old pedal was going to unscrew. I've come to the conclusion that the only way to prevent this, no matter what sort of anti-seize you use, is to remove the pedals on a regular, if not all that frequent, basis, clean the threads and reapply anti-seize.

(I must admit I'd probably personally have trouble adhering to such a regime and the only reason I haven't suffered completely stuck pedals is due to me constantly upgrading, downgrading, changing my mind and swapping parts between bikes: I'm addicted to fettling, but love the low-maintenance of my Speedhub. Go figure!)

Anyway, let's all just put loads of anti-seize on, don't be stingey with the stuff, invest in a nice pedal spanner for yourself and refresh that protective layer of slippery goo once in a while.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 03:48:52 pm by stutho »

Podge

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Copper Grease (CopaSlip)
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2009, 10:18:49 pm »
@ jawj:
Your last post makes for fascinating reading. But my lack of knowledge leaves me with a question: what is meant to be the point of the copper in copper grease? If, as your post says, copper anti seize depends on its grease component to prevent seizure, and the copper itself, with no grease present, will corrode with other metals, then one might as well have just grease in your threads and no copper at all! Or am I missing the point?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 03:49:44 pm by stutho »

stutho

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
Copper Grease (CopaSlip)
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2009, 12:04:42 am »
I have to admit that this I am a bit perplexed by this.  A long time ago I did A Level Chemistry, since then I haven't given any thought to the subject.  It used to be received wisdom that copper grease (Copaslip) REDUCED the likelihood of thread corrosion especially on steal ali interface! however I have just spent an hour trailing the web and there does seam to be some differing opinions. (especially among bicyclists.)   

Certainly in practise I get much better result using copper grease than Lithium grease. I can't say I have tried Alumslip but if you think that galvanic corrosion is happing then maybe this is the way to go.  Like I said previously anti-seize is just as good as Cu grease. 

At the end of the day I know that Cu grease works well for me, and has done for many years, other opinions may vary.       
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 03:50:08 pm by stutho »

jimmer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 98
Copper Grease (CopaSlip)
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2009, 09:10:40 am »
It xould be that that the Cu smeared between the threads provides a relatively inert layer that will not corrode so preventing seizing. Just an idea, simple but possibly an effective solution. The Li in lithium grease is in the form of Li compounds not elemental Li; I quote from the good book Wikipedia:

"Lithium-based grease, often referred to simply as "lithium grease", is a lubricant grease to which lithium compounds have been added, giving it higher performance and temperature tolerance. Some formulations also include PTFE and/or other substances, such as molybdenum compounds.

Lithium grease adheres well to metal, is non-corrosive, and may be used under heavy loads. It has a drip temperature of 190° to 220°C (350° to 400°F) and it resists moisture, so it is commonly used as lubricant in household products, such as electric garage doors.

Lithium grease is formed by the same kind of reaction that forms other greases. Lithium hydroxide or lithium carbonate is reacted with fatty acids, particularly 12-hydroxy stearic acid, to form salts that disperse into and viscosify oils to form stable gels.

Most commonly used in the Automotive Industry
"

Yours, James
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 03:49:53 pm by stutho »
 

Podge

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Copper Grease (CopaSlip)
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2009, 01:13:36 pm »
Looking up explanations of galvanic corrosion on the 'interwebz' seems to support the 'inert layer' theory offered by jimmer, but in an unusal way... In that copper is relatively inert, but not entirely. Let me try and explain my theory...

It seems that galvanic corrosion would need an electrolyte present to encourage the migration of ions. The electrolyte we would encounter, as cyclists, would probably be rain water, or water used for cleaning,  mixed with road salt or other salts (pollutants?). Certainly the presence of the grease in copper grease would initially inhibit the penetration of the electrolyte into the threads. After the grease has washed away, though, the naked metal to metal contact of copper to aluminium or copper to steel WOULD produce an electrochemical reaction. But this reaction would serve to BREAK DOWN any potential bond between the metals. This is the wikipedia entry I am basing all this 'stuff' on:

"Copper should not be in only mechanical contact with metals of different electropotential (for example, a copper pipe joined to an iron pipe), especially in the presence of moisture, as the completion of an electrical circuit (as through the common earth ground) will cause the juncture to act as an electrochemical cell (as is a single cell of a battery). The weak electrical currents themselves are harmless but the electrochemical reaction will cause the conversion of the iron to other compounds, eventually destroying the functionality of the union."

This is why, in plumbing, steel and copper pipes are not joined directly as they would react with each other and fall apart. This is also why the copper outer layer of the Statue of Liberty threatened to fall away from its iron inner structure until an intervening layer of teflon was introduced. Okay, these examples involve two metals that want to move away from each other, as opposed to being held together by force (as in the continually tightening thread that you get with pedals) but hear me out. So there IS a corrosive reaction, once the grease has gone, but its only ever between either aluminum and copper or steel and copper and not between aluminium and steel. The copper is in loose particle form. So, in an interface between aluminium and steel where copper particles sit inbetween the two, the particulate nature of the copper prevents any STABLE bond from taking place. Within the copper particles, that sit inbetween the aluminium and the steel, I imagine three layers where some copper particles are adhering to the steel, some are adhering to the aluminium, and some loose copper particles sit inbetween the two which prevent the steel and aluminium from coming together and bonding. Copper compunds that have formed due to bonds to aluminium and steel will not want to bond with each other, so, even if there are only a few copper particles present, bonding between steel and aluminium is prevented.

There are other advantages of copper in this situation. Copper is highly malleable yet resistant to pressure at a molecular level, so it will 'bed in' the threads nicely as the pedals are tightened on, without altering in any significant way. Relating to jimmer's previous point, copper is also the most inert metal out of copper, aluminium and steel and therefore would not become 'used up' quickly, as with a more active 'sacrificial anode', such as magnesium. The inertness of copper means that, although electrochemical reactions would take place, these reactions would happen only slowly and the main main body of pure copper particles would be around for a long time (which is what you want). I am not sure how long copper particles resist being 'washed off' by the physical ingress of water, though. Maybe someone has an idea of how long copper particles stick around in sufficent quantities? Certainly, if enough copper particles are washed away then aluminium and steel will touch and the pedal and crank will bond together... If my ramblings prove in any way to have a relation to fact, it is preferable to lavish the copper in the threads before application, rather than use 'sparing' quantities. And, as has been mentioned before, reapplication of any corrosion inhibitor is ALWAYS going to be needed.

As far as other 'metal greases' are concerned, I doubt aluminium grease would work as well as aluminium is one of the materials you are trying to keep from corroding together. This, to me, would neither significantly speed up or slow down the bonding of the steel part to the aluminium part... A more active metal, such as magnesium, might be a good idea, as it would behave as a 'sacrficial anode' and corrode first, although I dont know how long it would be before the magnesium would be used up  and you would be back to steel on aluminium with nothing of note inbetween... A more inert metal, such as silver or gold (imagine GOLD grease - bling! bling!) might be good because it would be more likely to just sit there with hardly any galvanic reactions taking place. But is some 'sacrificial' reaction preferred between the corrosion inhibitor and that which it lies between, to prevent the bonding of the main structures? It seems to me that copper would in part react with the other metals and yet remain partly inert, which is perhaps a nice combination of sacrifice and inertness... Oh I don't know, I've just read all this on the internet. No doubt someone will rubbish my theories shortly. But gold grease does sound so utterly cool...

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8232
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: Copper Grease (CopaSlip)
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2012, 11:02:13 pm »
I'll weigh in with a gentle voice of mild dissent...

I have not had much luck using copper-based anti-seize formulas, but it may well be the versions on this side of the pond differ in composition from what is available in the UK, so keep that in mind. I, too, found an unfortunate tendency toward chemical welding (galling) of dissimilar metals with it, particularly between steel and aluminum. This proved true for me in high-temperature automotive applications -- exhaust manifold studs, oxygen-sensor threads, turbocharger fittings, and multi-pot disc calipers. In the bicycle realm, the coppery stuff failed to prevent the threads of an aluminum crankarm from screwing out along with the steel pedal spindle that was in it. I not only lost a very nice SunTour Superbe Pro crankarm, but the Mikashima Keirin pedal that was in it, as I could not get enough of the spindle threads free of aluminum to start a die to remove the dross that clung to the threads.

In each case, time seemed to be a determining factor in galling with the copper-based anti-seizes. So long as the threaded fittings were removed and refitted annually, there was no problem. The pedal-crank issue occurred after the pedal had been in place some 3-4 years.

I have had much better luck using Permatex Anti-Seize Lubricant #80078. It proved to prevent corrosion even on what we here in the Willamette Valley referred to as "Coast Cars" -- those exposed to the salt air and coastal storms of the Pacific Ocean and usually with body panels well-eaten by tinworms. The MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) reveals it is a mixture of calcium oxide, aluminum powder, graphite, and mineral oil in a suspension of naphthenic distillates. It flows into threads easily, clings through exposure to mositure, and will never wash off concrete or the Good Pants you should have worn beneath your coveralls. It has held up well and prevented galling in fittings I revisited a decade after installation/application. I have found it also works exceptionally well on the outside of chainring sleeve nuts which seem to corrode against their mating holes in a crank spider. I suspect the graphite is what makes it work well, as the aluminum powder would otherwise seem to work at cross-purposes.

That said, if you or others in your locale have had good luck with a particular formulation or product, I'd stay with it. You can't argue with success, and Copper Grease seem to be more successful than not for most people.

For more a quick and light summary on galvanic corrosion and how it can occur, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion

For what it is worth, I have found galling related to overtorquing a fitting regardless of the kind of anti-seize used. I wonder if excessive tension breaks the surface film of the anti-seize at the threads, resulting in a loss of isolation between dissimilar metals.

Lubricant (especially under the fastener head) reduces friction on the threads. Torque is indirectly related to bolt elongation/tension. For really critical automotive applications, I ran the fasteners up to an initial torque value (wet or dry values as manufacturer-specified), then used a degree-wheel to bring them to their final values according to spec.

Generally, a torque adjustment should be made when using anti-seize or lubrication compared to a dry fitting. As a rule of thumb (subject to the specific fasteners uses, materials, and application), I reduce torque 10%-15% if oil-based lubrication is used. More or less, if the fitting is dry or lubricated with other compounds.

Some interesting reading on torque values is available here: http://books.google.com/books?id=5a8937Pc6uEC&dq=engineer+to+win&pg=PP1&ots=QzGypyuf7m&sig=2fXeO2fdy1CSESmHLNdBQn9tDck&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Dengineer%2Bto%2Bwin%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail#v=onepage&q=engineer%20to%20win&f=false

More is available here:
http://www.lawsonproducts.com/webimages/vert/Fastener-Torque-Book.pdf
http://www.portlandbolt.com/technicalinformation/bolt-torque-chart.html
http://raskcycle.com/techtip/webdoc14.html

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 03:36:52 pm by Danneaux »

davefife

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 127
Re: Copper Grease (CopaSlip)
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2012, 08:15:01 am »
As a cycle mech I gotta echo the "undo and regrease pedal threads" advice.  As a non scientist - chapeau to those with the chemical knowledge  :D The number of scrap chainsets with cheap steel axle/plastic body pedals seemingly welded in place, that I have seen, could anchor a small yacht here in the harbour at Aberdour; its never easy telling a customer they need a new chainset because of a lack of lubricant in Taiwanese bicycle factories.

Jimmer, I can helicoil your chainset as long as the diameter of the pedal thread hole is not too elongated, I have the experience and technology to do this after I was amazed at the number of lbs who were unwilling to countenance such a job, prefering to sell you a new chainset! full details on www.davesbikeshed.co.uk mail order is an option as well.
cheers
Dave
 

stutho

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
Re: Copper Grease (CopaSlip)
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2012, 04:12:06 pm »
I thing the biggest problem with Copaslip /copper slip  is that there are many different brands of the stuff - each with a different make up.  I have NEVER had a problem with cold welding if copper slip was used.  (I have had an issue if lithium grease was used.)  However it seams others have had an issue with copaslip. 

Since my last posted on this thread I exhausted my supply of Copaslip. With this thread in mind I replaced it with tub of Bostik Never Seez.  I haven't had any problems with this grease but I have only been using it for about 12 months so time will tell.

Further echoing "undo and regrease pedal threads" I see it this as part of a yearly service plan - once a year I fully strip down my bicycles, deep clean them and rebuild.

Stutho   

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8232
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: Copper Grease (CopaSlip)
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2012, 04:47:10 pm »
Quote
there are many different brands of the stuff - each with a different make up..."undo and regrease pedal threads" I see it this as part of a yearly service plan
I think you've found the reason for problems and secret to success, Stu. Last evening, I looked up the MSDS on several brands of copper-based anti-seize available here, and they all differed significantly in composition from one another, the inclusion of copper being the only commonality. And, too, periodic disassembly seems to be key to preventing the "cold-welding" that comes with long-term fixation.

Since converting my bikes' components to sealed bearings (shielded cartridge bearings in headset, BB, hubs, pedals), I just don't (need to) do the maintenance I used to, and so things tend to sit in place longer than previously unless I make a deliberate effort to free them. After the crankarm/pedal incident years ago, I also adopted an annual take-apart-and-re-anti-seize routine and have had no problems since.

Dave, you're on the Front Lines in having to deal with these things over and over. You represent the best in bike repairmen, doing real repairs instead of just R&R (remove and replace). Good on ya, Dave!

Best,

Dan.