loaded touring.

[freddered]

hi freddered, i also had a look at the vango tent ,it look's a lot like the nallo gt except a hell of a lot more affordable,would there be a big difference in the preformance of the two tent's.

Well, Vango stake their reputation on their tents (the Force-10 is legendary).  I know someone with the regular Spirit 200 who loves it.  The tension band system makes it rock-solid against wind.

I think you can guarantee that they will be well deisgned, well made and waterproof.  I guess it all depends on weight and personal preference.

I just love the big porch because I don't like being squashed up in a dark inner when it's raining.

[julk]

Jags,

I have used Vango and Hilleberg tents amongst others.

The Vangos were/are cracking tents and value for money. The nylon one I had (Odyssey 200) died when the flysheet deteriorated due to sunlight rotting the nylon. The models seem to evolve fairly rapidly and getting a replacement flysheet is nigh on impossible after 2 or 3 years meaning you eventually have to replace the complete tent. I still have a cotton force ten which gets used in sunny climes.

The Hillebergs I have are standing up to the weather better. Hilleberg also offer a repair service and sell spares.

So in my experience it is a choice of spend more up front and keep the tent going a long time or spend less up front but plan to repeat the purchase when the flysheet goes.

[bobs]

I have a 20 year old Vango hurricane which is still in VGC spent a few nights at the top of a "Munro" in it. Cotton inner and realy strong groundsheet. The down side is the weight compared to a Hilleberg Atko which I expect to last just as long.
Bob

[Fred A-M]

check out the Vango TBS Spirit 200+.   I think it would be ideal if you got stuck in prolonged rain.  It has a proper 'living area' and just needs one of those chair adapters for your camping mat to make it a home-from-home.

Hi Freddered, I immediately checked the Spirit 200+ thanks and it does look pretty much the job in terms of my requirements, though am going to see if I can't find anything a little lighter (than 2.6Kgs) given that managing weight is of paramount importance in this instance.

[freddered]

You guys just talked me into looking at Hilleberg tents as a possible alternative to a Vango.

I have just regained conciousness after looking at the price of Hilleberg equivalents.  I don't camp enough to justify one unfortunately.  They do sound nice though.

[bobs]

You get what you pay, that's why you are riding a Thorn.

[peter jenkins]

FWIW, I did LEJOG (and others shorter trips) with Deuter panniers and found them really good. They have the Ortlieb attachment system so are easy to attach/detach and have outside pockets, which are good for keeping some things separate when necessary. e.g. rain gear or laundry. They don't pretend to be waterproof in the same way as Ortlieb but have in built rain covers (Fluorescent yellow) that are quite effective.

I wouldn't be without a bar bag. It keeps wallet, passport, snacks, cell phone etc. all in one place on and off the bike and the map pocket in the lid is really convenient.

Cheers,

pj

[daviddd55]

My Ortliebs ar completely waterproof after 4 days of torrential rain in the last 2 weeks in Oz, but the Topeak bar bag gets wet even with the yellow 'waterproof' cover that came with it. I'm not sure wht but maybe the brake cables run water off into the side of it.

[Danneaux]

An old thread that's still fun, so here's my offering...

My photo-inventory helps me pack more quickly. What I take and where I put it differs by trip and panniers used, so I tuck a laminated reference card copy in my map case the first couple days. My Sherpa carries Ortliebs -- BikePacker Plus rear panniers, SportPacker Plus front panniers, and Ultimate V Plus Large handlebar bag.  My bags are not full, and there is room to carry more if I fully release the BikePackers' built-in compression straps.  The Packers' cap-lids provide a large external pocket atop each drawstring-closed pannier, and I am always careful to fold the zippered mesh/envelope inner pockets in two and lay them atop the inner load for easy access to small items.  This makes a total of four "pockets" for each front bag and five for each rear bag (each has an external roll-top side pocket held shut by the BikePacker compression straps).

All my load adjustments are made at the rear and vary by the amount of food and reserve water that is carried.  If I am going to desert regions and need to carry extra water, then I place my 10l MSR Dromedary water bladder (filled to 6l) atop the blue foam sit-pad on the rear rack.  The extra capacity is a reserve beyond the 6.5l on the frame.   For long trips, the main compartments of the rear panniers are devoted to foodstuffs.  I restock the handlebar bag each day with nibble-snacks to eat as I ride along (energy bars, nuts, dried fruit, etc).

My spare (walking) shoes go inside the cap-lids atop one rear pannier; rain gear fits under the opposite cap-lid.  Quick access without wetting the bag interiors.

I prefer small tissue packets for toilet paper; more convenient and space-efficient than paper rolls, and easier to keep dry in the rear bags' side pockets. One packet is always in the HB bag with waterless hand-cleanser and my cat-hole trowel.  When I have to use rolls, I de-core and step on them to take up less space and prevent a roll-away if dropped. I am squirrel-away extra paper bits and will nick the spare paper restaurant napkin to extend my supply.

Most of my other stuff goes in the handlebar bag and front panniers. This load remains constant for predictable handling and ease of packing/finding.

I use nylon-covered hair bands to roll-up and color code my clothing.  Rolling takes less space and causes fewer wrinkles.  Hair bands last much longer than common rubber bands and don't cause snags.  They are so useful, I carry extra.

My base clothing is a jersey, riding shorts, socks, gloves, and helmet with glasses-mounted mirror. The stored clothing shown is what I commonly use when I travel in Spring, Summer, and Fall.  Jackets go under the front panniers' cap-lids for quick access in changing conditions.  I take enough so I will be warm if I wear *everything* at the coldest temps.  I ride warm, but cool off when I stop and temperatures drop with nightfall.  I awaken at daybreak to pack my bike and am riding 20 minutes later.  I go about 32km before stopping for breakfast, and ride till I have gone far enough.  

Usually, my sleeping system goes atop the rear rack, but on shorter trips the down bag and pad go inside the rear panniers with several days' food, the tent lengthwise atop the rear rack.  One of the attached photos shows the minimal, normal, and expedition arrangements on the rear.  I use a closed-cell foam square for a sit-pad; folded in two, it protects the rack from scratches.  My U-lock and cable tuck in-between the rack-top load, held by the same Arno straps ( http://www.arnostrap.com/default.asp?content=productdetails&id=12  Swedish, though mine were produced in Ireland).  Arnos' metal buckles hold up as the temps dip below -10C; sun-aged plastic buckles tend to fracture under tension at those temps.

For most tours, I take my Coleman Peak 1 multi-fuel stove and a spare generator pipe so I can convert it to kerosene, white gas (naptha), or unleaded pump gas.  A stable stove with a large attached tank in the base so it goes a long time between fills and there are no connector leaks.  Sometimes, I also take my little homemade methanol stove if I want a second burner or alone to save weight and space on shorter trips.  For long-term use, it is less efficient than the multi-fuel stove (particularly at altitude), and my refill options are more limited in the remote backcountry. The Peak 1 will simmer nicely and is far more efficient than my Optimus/Primus liquid-fuel stoves, making it lighter in comparison (fuel weight) the longer I use it.

My tent is a 1-person double-wall Coleman Exponent Dakota with a side-vestibule, single side-entry, and aluminum poles similar to a Black Wolf Mantis 1 ( http://www.blackwolf.com.au/product-details.php?product_id=138&category_id=22 ) or Gelert Solo 1 ( http://www.gelert.com/products/solo_tent ).  No longer made after Coleman fled the lightweight solo-hiker market, I bought three at USD$60 each on closeout.  Still sold in the Ukraine as the Kraz X1 ( http://www.coleman.eu/p-23381-kraz8482-x1.aspx ).  Just large enough to sit up in and remarkably lightweight, I like it very much, unlike some far more expensive models I have tried and rejected.  It replaces my Early Winters Pocket Hotel Gore-Tex bivy that finally failed after 30+ years of use.  Tents lead a hard life in continuous use, particularly if occasionally stored wet of necessity, leading to mildew that delaminates and dissolves the waterproof urethane coatings.  The same malady affects cheap and expensive tents alike.

My Ortlieb medium under-seat bag carries:
= Multi-tool with tire levers
= 1 glued patch kit
= 2 glueless patch kits
= 1 spare tube
= Zefal Twingraph dual-valve manometer
= 1 Crank Brothers mini-pump (spare to the frame-mounted Zefal HPX2; I always carry two pumps in remote country)

Less-used tools and spares live in the Tool Sack in the left-front pannier. O-ringed alu Presta-to-Schraeder adapter lives on rear wheel valve stem, with cap.

My saddle cover is attached to the Sherpa's Brooks saddle rails so I can quickly install or remove it when it rains.

So, there you have it, Danneaux's what 'n' where 'n' a bit of how. C'mon guys, lets see what's-where in your panniers...

[JimK]

I'm just dreaming of camping trips... maybe in the spring. To help with the plan, I am reading Ray Jardine's Trail Life, and getting a great kick out of it.

How about a tarp strung between a bike on one side and a clickstand on the other:



Another wild scheme: I am intrigued by the notion of a vapor barrier liner for a sleeping bag. I think the real question isn't whether the inside of the sleeping bag should pass water vapor freely or block it totally, but the rate at which vapor should move. The idea is that when one overheats and starts to sweat more, the humidity inside the bag should increase and trigger one to reduce the insulation, to slide the covers off or unzip or whatever. But then one doesn't want to get soggy either - as soon as one has reduced insulation, that excess humidity should quickly enough be allowed to dissipate.

Thing is, one will generally already be carrying shell garments that are water resistant, but not waterproof. So my clever idea is to wear these shell garments inside one's sleeping bag, or under one's quilt. Crazy pajamas maybe. but they just might work perfectly, and no extra weight at all since one is already carrying them!
 

[Danneaux]

Jim!

This is right up my alley!

Yes, what you propose with the tarp is similar to my current scheme for rigging a clothesline.  I've never been able to do that before, 'cos there aren't many trees in the desert.  My current plan is to rig the line between the Click-Standed bike (stand side) and the tent's main tension line.  Should work a treat.  I'm going to try it with the Sea to Summit Lite Line clothesline ( http://www.seatosummit.com/products/display/3 ).  It is longer than average, and uses rubber beads to squeeze the clothes between two nylon cords, so there are no clips or pins to lose.  It also self-stores in a tiny, captive pouch and weighs only 1.3oz/37g.  Should be here within the next week.

I really don't see it being much different than a lightweight tarp in that regard, unless you ran into high winds or possibly snow that would increase the load on the bike and stand.  I believe leaving the loaded panniers on the bike in that case would increase stability.  I have already managed fine using my Click-Standed bike and panniers as deadmen to pitch my tent tautly without pegs, so the tarp idea is well worth pursuing.

Yes, Ray Jardine's _Trail Life_ is a  wonderful body of work, and one of my currently most-referred-to books, along with Stephen Lord's _Adventure Cycle-Touriing Handbook (2nd Ed)_ ( http://adventurecycle-touringhandbook.com/ ), also available from Amazon and a number of other outlets.  Unlike many adventure-touring accounts, this one is based on his own experience and that of 20+ other travelers who are well-known through their own websites (he includes a list).  It is full of practical information on equipment, preferred routes, and the included travel accounts are a good read.  So is the included Thorn content.  

As for your vapor-barrier idea,...I have already tested it and found it better than not.  On my 2010 Great Basin tour, I suffered a tent failure in a storm.  Ice pellets and heavy rain driven by 70mph/112kph winds atop Blizzard Gap finally proved too much for my 32 year-old Gore-Tex bivy.  The Gore-Tex was still fine, but the urethane coating on the sides and bottom proved to be no longer waterproof, so it was up and out on the road, into the teeth of the storm as I ground up Doherty Slide into Nevada.  I had no tent that night outside Denio, NV, and my synthetic bag remained pretty damp as the skies cleared and the temps dropped below 19F/-7C.  I always take enough clothing so I will be warm if I wear everything, and that night I did!  I wore my rain pants closed with velcro at the ankles and my waterproof rain jacket zipped up and secured at the wrist and neck with velcro, topped by my wind jacket.  I wore my sun hat and put my waterproof helmet cover over that.  Beneath, I took off my riding shorts, but wore my wool tights and lycra tights over them, beneath the rain pants.  Above, I had on two jerseys, my nylon-faced wool wind jacket, and my fleece jacket beneath the rain jacket.  I got through the night toasty-warm inside the bag atop my pad on the hard playa, despite a pretty constant night breeze.  Though these weren't ideal conditions for a vapor barrier liner -- and my contrivances were not ideal -- it worked, and I was grateful.  In those conditions, I awakened fairly dry, though I had to shake off a lot of ice that formed on the already-damp bag.  As you can see, the alkali dust, sun, and wind did a number on my lips, nose, and head.  I've given up on sunscreen for those places; next time I'll go with white zinc oxide, despite appearances.  No one to scare except a few wild burros and some pronghorn antelope.

The thing about VBLs is they tend to make you damp inside by trapping the moisture coming off your body.  Their real value is in keeping that moisture from wetting-out your sleeping bag's insulation.  In cold-weather, one quickly becomes canny about just where the actual dew point falls with regards to your body.  Inside the bag, you get damp (as in a VBL).  Outside the bag, you get a frozen crust. Dead-center in the bag's insulation and you'll soak it out.  Tent ventilation is a major determinate of where that dew point falls, as is the ambient temperature and humidity.

I'd love to see any prototypes you come up with, Jim.  Good stuff!

Best,

Dan.

[Danneaux]

Oh, I see, Jim...looking a bit closer at your drawing, I see you're using the Click-Stand as the second support; the freestanding bike serves as the other, probably at a slight outward tilt to provide tension to the tarp-line.  I'm guessing the line is wrapped completely around the top tube for stability.

Hmm.  I've got to give this a bit more thought.  At first glance, I think it is viable, but you'd probably want a toe-strap or something to make the bike a rigid panel, and of course you would need to set the brake bands.  Based on my tinkering, I fear it would be easy for the bike to topple unless a solid connection is made to it with the line.

At the other end, the Click-Stand's cradle would serve nicely to take a line across its top on the way to a ground stake or peg.  A lot will depend on secure stakes, and that could be a problem in sand or soft/wet soil.  Still, given the right combination, it would be an elegantly simple solution and that has great appeal.  Certainly worth a try and a whole lot of fun to play with (my backyard works great as a proving ground for such things; wish you lived nearby).

I think a quicker, easier, and possibly more solid approach might involve leaning the loaded bike on the Click-Stand, as usual.  With the brake bands set, the Max model is extremely stable.  If you turned the front wheel toward the stand and tied a line to or around the seatpost (as I plan to with my clothesline idea), then all you would need is a second anchor.  I believe it might be possible to use paired rear panniers as a single deadman to attach the foot-line for your tarp, achieving a nice sloping ridgeline in the process.

By the way (in reference to Ray Jardine's remarkable ideas), it is entirely possible to convert a sleeping bag to a viable quilt, but not visa versa.  I take my 0F/-17C down bag well into hot weather as a quilt by zipping it open and centering it atop me, feet and lower legs in the foot-pocket. It is really handy when there is a 70F+/21C difference between day and nighttime temps.  Venting the sides by propping them atop my HB bag ensures a comfortable flow of cooling air on summer nights.  I always bring my Cocoon Expedition silk liner (sized to the bag and with a closeable hood; best silk liner I've ever found... see: http://www.designsalt.com/detail.asp?pageId=products&pageName=mummyliner&PRODUCT_ID=SMX ).  When it is really hot, that makes a viable substitute atop various clothing combinations.

Best, 

Dan.

[JimK]

  I'm guessing the line is wrapped completely around the top tube for stability.

Yes, or the seat rails, or wherever. Yes, I would strap the front wheel to the down tube, and why not apply the brake bands just to make things solid. For sure, this whole idea relies on solid stakes! Once that bike starts to tilt... of course I'd have the bags and bottles off it, but still it is no light thing!

Sure the line could run over the U of the clickstand, but I'd still apply a half hitch or some such to secure the line to that support. Following Jardine's approach, I'd probably set up the clickstand first, tensioned against the opposing cornerstakes of the tarp, and then set the bike up second, since it would need more security.

Of course is there is a tree about, the bike plus clickstand could be another support & the line just run over top, free to slide. But without the tree... I am just having fun, thinking about how to apply Jardine's logic to bicycle camping. How does the bicycle shift things?

Unzipping a mummy bag does seem like a practical way to get a Jardine-style quilt. I gather that's how he started down that path.

Yeah, I might well  do some back-yard sleep-outs, just to refine methods before I get too far out by myself in the mountains!

[macspud]

I'm afraid it won't work, the click stand will just fall over as there is nothing to keep it upright unless it has some further guy ropes. The minimum to keep upright is lines coming off in three directions. The bike would also need tying off.

[JimK]

the click stand will just fall over

This calls for some experimentation!

Theoretically it's the corner stakes of the tarp that will create the lateral stability for the click-stand. The bike is already laterally stable because it has the two wheels - of course they'll need brake bands or some such to prevent rolling!

Whether the theory works... I'll just have to try it!