Tentative Tour, London, Edinburgh, John O'Grotes

[mickeg]

I am planning my next bike tour.  I have never been to the UK before, so I thought I would mention it here, where many if not most forum users are in the UK.

Just a bit of background, I started planning a LEJOG trip in 2019.  Then Covid happened.  Later, got back to the planning on that and decided that was too much of a trip, dropped that plan.  Thus, twice I started planning a UK trip, both times did not follow though.  Maybe this time will be different.

Tentative plan:

Fly to Edinburgh.  Why am I flying to Edinburgh?  Delta flys there.  They also fly to London.  But I would rather avoid flying in and out of such a busy airport in such a huge metro area, so do not want to fly to London.  And the photos I see of Edinburgh makes that look like a very interesting place.

Stay in a hostel in Edinburgh for probably two nights while I reassemble my bike, look at maps, talk to people, buy butane canisters, buy some food, do a bit of sightseeing, etc. 

Then take a train to London.  Looks like there are two train options, Avanti or LNER, both of which have the same luggage criteria.  I have no clue which train to take.  Stay in a London hostel, probably about three nights.  Play tourist.  Avoid the extreme tourism spots, but check out museums, etc. 

Then start riding my bike north, aim for Edinburgh.  Once I leave London, I would have no reservations, until a few days before my flight home.  So I can travel at whatever pace I want to, can camp on nice days and look for a hostel when I want to get out of the rain.

Over the weekend I was looking at maps, putting hostels and campsites into my GPS, etc.  I also looked at Ride With GPS, looked to see if anyone had planned out a ride like that before.  Someone had mapped out a route that looked like it was on quiet trails and back roads, about 15 percent unpaved.
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/49188937

I have not yet looked to see what Komoot says about London to Edinburgh, so I am not yet sure if that RideWithGPS route is the right one for me.  But tentatively, I like the looks of that route.

Plan is to mostly camp in campgrounds, occasionally hostels if I want to get out of the rain.

When I get to Edinburgh, relax a day or two at the hostel, then keep going north towards John-O-Groats.  Then turn around and back to Edinburgh.  The part of the track on this ride that is north of Edinburgh is probably what I would do.
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/43518622

But I still plan to compare that to what Komoot might suggest.

Or if I am going too slow and can't make the distance I planned, turn back early to make sure I make my flight home on time. 

Or, if I get lazy, cut the trip shorter and see how many photos I can get of Nessie.

And fly home after about six weeks.  But first do a bit more sightseeing in Edinburgh while I am packing up my bike, etc.  The hostel there will store my S&S backpack case.

I am looking at a trip that would start in about two months, I have made no reservations yet.  So far I have about $35 USD invested in a map and renewal of my Hi Hostel membership.  But if I do this, I will probably start making reservations in a week.

The Nomad Mk II is a heavier duty bike than I need for a trip like that, but having an S&S coupled bike so I can avoid oversize luggage makes that the right bike for this trip.  I was thinking 40mm tires, until I realized that about 15 percent of that route out of London is unpaved, so would probably use 50 or 57mm wide tires on the Nomad if I take that route. 

Thoughts anyone?

[PH]

All in my opinion:
My favorite route planner for the UK is cycletravel, it picks out the sort of quiet roads and trails I like:
https://cycle.travel/

The National Cycle Network (NCN) is a mix of on and off road paths and trails, it generally avoids anything too extreme.  It isn't perfect and can sometimes meander unnecessarily, but it often makes a good basis. If you don't mind the hills, The Pennine Cycleway (NCN 68) will take you from Derby in the midlands to Berwick on the Scottish border:
https://cycle.travel/route/pennine_cycleway

The Southern part of the Coast and Castles route (NCN 1) overlaps with the Pennine Cycleway from Newcastle then continues up to Edinburgh. 
London to Derby has loads of options, depending on your interests, but to be honest if I had limited time in the UK, I might find better ways to spend it.
If you don't do the Pennine Cycleway, your choice is East or West of the Pennines, you don't want to be crossing them too often.  East is flatter and drier, West is a good bit more urban, but you do get the option of going through the Lake District.
Andy Corless's E2E Audax route that you've linked to, pretty much takes the shortest practical cycle route, it's well thought out for that purpose, but for a tour, there are better options. The A9 North on Inverness is used by a lot of E2E riders, I don't think it's a nice ride.
Once North on Inverness, there's not much to see, that can be nice in a way, but the landscape doesn't change much.  I understand the appeal of ticking off the most Northerly point, but the most Westerly, Ardnamurchan, could be a much more interesting ride - You could also come back from there via two ferries, the isle of Mull, and one of the UK's most dramatic train rides.

Hope that gives you something to think about!  Happy to elaborate on any part of it, not upset if someone else has a contradictory opinion on any of it.


 

[Andyb1]

Good advice PH.
Would just add:

- Scottish Ferrys seem to be the news at the moment due to cancellations.  Hopefully resolved by the time you are here, but worth considering options if you plan to use them.
- Nessie photographs best from his right hand side…….

 

[mickeg]

...
...
Hope that gives you something to think about!  Happy to elaborate on any part of it, not upset if someone else has a contradictory opinion on any of it.

Thanks, I will check those out.  I have spent the last three days planning, going to take a break for a day or two.  And, I can change the planned route any time during the next two months, so that is not time critical.

Right now my quandary is the train luggage allotment is one large, one medium and one small bag.  I am trying to figure out the best way to change four panniers, a 31 liter Ortlieb Rack Pack and a handlebar bag into something that fits that criteria.  No luggage allowed on bike.

I did that a year and a half ago, first photo attached, but the red mesh duffle on the floor with the four Ortlieb panniers in it is (1) difficult to carry from a shoulder strap if I am also carrying the other bags and rolling the bike with the other hand in a train station.  That photo was taken inside an Amtrak station (USA passenger train system) but Amtrak allows checked luggage, on this trip I checked the red duffle, so I did not have to handle everything all at once.

I have a giant backpack that would easily hold all of the pannier contents and the empty panniers if I unpack the panniers to load the backpack, the orange backpack in the second photo.  I could easily wear a backpack, carry the Ortlieb RackPack (the yellow duffle on the bench in the photo) with one hand and roll the bike with the other hand.  But, I hate to carry that orange backpack on the bike for over a month, it has no frame but it still does not pack down as small as I would like.  That orange backpack and the black bag in that second photo would be my checked luggage on the flights, the black bag is the S&S Backpack case that would have almost all of the Nomad in it.  The black case gets stored at the hostel, I would like to store the orange bag there too but I might need it for the train.

For now, carrying the empty orange bag on the bike during the trip is the current plan while I look for a better plan.

[Andyb1]

My limited experience of UK railways is that they are a bit more flexible than airlines!  I would book train tickets away from rush hours…….perhaps in the week, in the middle of the day, and not at weekends when there may be sporting events  …..so that the train is not overfull.  I would then expect you could get extra baggage on.

I was very happy with GWR who honoured my 2 week out of date ticket from LHR to Taunton recently after the Iran War delayed me in Sri Lanka.

I don’t know the arrangements London to Edinburgh but a lot of trains now have bike storage areas at the ends of the coaches that you sit in so you load the bike in there yourself and can see it.  Longer distance trains may still use the guards van?

[Danneaux]

Right now my quandary is the train luggage allotment...

George, one solution might be to rethink your load and take much less cargo and luggage. The UK has many shops for food resupply and despite a good possibility of rain, you'll be traveling at a warmer time of year.

If I were to make another tour of Eastern Europe, I would surely consider an alternative to my more usual six-bag arrangement used for longer unsupported tours in remote areas. I'd instead consider my Carradice Camper Longflap saddlebag and pair it with my Ortlieb Large handlebar bag for extra food capacity and to add a lightweight 800+ fill down sweater against unforeseen cold. In May and September, mornings were a bit chilly at 3.3°C/38°F in Romanian and Bulgarian uplands...maybe similar in Scotland?

See...
https://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11787.msg85858#msg85858

Best, Dan.

Thanks again to member Julian (JulK) for gifting me his CCLF a decade ago.

[in4]

Thanks for sharing this, Dan. I've been thinking about doing a tour of Scotland again but this time with a much lighter load. I've got a Camper Longflap and an Ortlieb bar bag too. On my last Scottish tour I took a lot of gear with me and tbh it was a bit overkill. That said the weather at that time of year was quite tough. Orkney was very wet and heading south to Lairg, from Bettyhill through Altnaharra was horrible!  Now, with the winter behind us a lighter load seems quite possible.

[You're welcome, Ian! I fixed your photo so the inverted thumbnail would display correctly. -- Dan.]

[Notts0115]

I’d second PH’s view on NCN. The best of the network is very good, but there are some odd choices on the ones I know well in the East Midlands.

The canals, also, can be very good, but are a bit too well used in the better months for my tastes. These are more numerous central and west.

If you go east, then Lincolnshire is quiet and fairly flat.  The Humber bridge is worth crossing, and you might include The Cinder Track towards Whitby. It is popular, but for a good reason.

Also happy to elaborate…

After 55 years on this island, and having spent most of those as a keen cyclist, I have to report that the roads are in as poor a condition as I can recall. Bigger tyres are a must for me.

[mickeg]

Right now my quandary is the train luggage allotment...

George, one solution might be to rethink your load and take much less cargo and luggage. The UK has many shops for food resupply and despite a good possibility of rain, you'll be traveling at a warmer time of year....

My trip a year and a half ago (part in USA, part in Ontario Canada), I anticipated warm weather, I wanted to be able to bike in rain without rain pants.  For that trip I brought sandals to wear on the bike to keep my bike shoes dry in rain.  But this trip, I am assuming if I am biking in the rain, I will be wearing rain pants.  And that means rain covers for my bike shoes.  But will probably bring sandals, just in case, it depends on my weight when done packing.  Third photo, the sandals I biked in on rainy days on that trip, that trip was on my titanium bike.  They have a stiff enough sole I can ride all day without foot pain, but I need the right pedals for those sandals to work well.

When I went to Iceland, I only took one jersey, it was long sleeve.  I checked out the weather averages for this trip, I am leaning towards one long sleeve and one short.  Otherwise, pretty much teh same clothing as I took to Iceland.  But I might bring one short and one sleeve shirt instead of two long sleeve.  For biking, am leaning towards two pair of bike pants, one would be shorts and the other would be long pants that convert to shorts.  That is what I used in Iceland.

I always bring a down vest and stocking cap on trips.  Even if it gets quite chilly, a rain jacket (in dry conditions) over the vest is almost as good as a winter jacket.  I looked at the June data for London, Leeds, Edinburgh, and John O Grotes on:
https://weatherspark.com/m/147876/6/Average-Weather-in-June-at-London-Heathrow-Airport-United-Kingdom

Where possible I always look at airport weather data since they have the best data on the past for averages and statistics.

I do not recall where i heard this, but I heard that Scotland can be buggy.  I plan to treat my clothing with Permethrin and also bring insect repellant.  Not sure if I will have a head net or not.

First attached photo is my Nomad Mk II and my Ortliebs, plus handlebar bag.  This would be what I bring on this trip.  The Rack Pack (31 liter duffle on top of rear panniers) would be close to empty with no food.  I do not see myself cutting back much on my load.  And I was thinking that I would buy very little food before I get onto the train to make sure that I do not start out with too much weight and bulk.  At the time I took this photo, I had not yet learned how to correctly attach Rack Pack with Backrollers.

I have both Carradry panniers and also the Ortliebs.  At this time, planning on the Ortliebs, but might change my mind on that later.  Second photo, Carradry in back on my Nomad.  The Carradry are about 25 percent larger than the Ortliebs but weigh about the same.  If I brought the Carradry, would bring a dry bag for the rack top bag.

I have a Carradice Camper, bought it a few years ago.  One day I noticed that the US Dollar was unusually strong, tried to figure out if there was anything that I might want some day, bought the Camper at that time.  I have not used the Camper yet, but I figured if I ever did a credit card tour, I would use it then.  I like the 31 liter Ortlieb, it attaches on the panniers very well, mine weighs 795 grams.  I have not weighed the Camper, the Nelson Long Flap is 1025 grams.  How to correctly attach Rack Pack with Backrollers at this link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtxsoOa2h48

If I decide to bring the Carradry instead of Ortliebs, I will consider the Camper.  I used a Nelson Longflap on my Pacific Coast tour, but buckling and unbuckling it from my bike every day was a lot less convenient than the Ortlieb Rack Pack. 

I have a few other ideas for carrying my luggage in the train station, but it is all contingency so I won't elaborate here.  My plans are to start planning with worst case scenario, and later if I find something smaller and lighter will work, do that instead.  But plans start with stuff that I have certainty will work, modifications come later.

At some point I will be trying to remove one or two more pounds (or kg), but that step comes last.

I am assuming food will be readily available south of Leeds, but once north of there I anticipate carrying more food with me, especially north of Edinburgh.  I probably will bring a few days of food from home, in original store packaging, this would be lighter dehydrated stuff that might turn into contingency foods later in the event that I don't plan my grocery shopping well enough.

The part that I think will be hardest is that for my 72 years of existence, all driving is done on the right side of the road.  My helmet mirror is on the left side, it can't be changed.  So, I bought a mirror that attaches to eye glasses so I can try to put that on the right side of my head.

[John Saxby]

George, what an ambitious plan!

A couple of notes & suggestions:

  >  "Scotland can be buggy" I hiked the West Highland Way in June/July 2008, and there were plenty of midges.  (Very small biting flies.)  They were a nuisance, but nowhere nearly as bad as the blackflies you would have encountered in Cape Breton.  Still, I'd suggest a headnet.

  >  on mirrors:  For years, I've used the "Take-a-Look" mirror, which clips to my helmet or its eye-shade. (I've ridden in Southern Africa & Australia, in both of which you ride on the left; as well as in Canada & the U.S.) The Take-a-Look is easy to change from one side to the other. I wear glasses all the time (sunglasses or plain), and I wouldn't want a mirror mounted on my glasses for fear on unbalancing them -- but I readily admit that may be my obsession.

Good luck with your planning, and with the trip itself.  And at the risk of complicating things:  I've been privileged to visit much of England and Scotland, and parts of Wales & Ireland. I was born in Dorset, and lived much of my childhood in that county & in Wiltshire.  Happy to admit my bias, but if 'twere me me, I'd go first to Cornwall/Devon/Dorset/Gloucestershire, and then to Salisbury in Wiltshire. For me, its cathedral is the most beautiful building I've ever seen (better than the Taj Mahal, f'rinstance).

Cheers, John

[JohnR]

A few points:
1. All my UK cycling in the summer half of the year is in sandals with no socks / socks / waterproof socks depending on the weather. Drying socks is easier than drying shoes. I've got some thin waterproof overtrousers. Full length if wet and cold plus a pair that are cut off below the knee for warmer weather and are easier to put on and get off.
2. A repellant called "Smidge" https://www.smidgeup.com/ is easily found in Scotland. Perhaps it is very effective as I've not encountered the little beasts but they don't like rain and wind any more than cyclists. There's a midge forecast on that website.
3. Some (all?) of the Edinburgh - London trains have bike storage which involves hanging the bike by one wheel on a hook in a cupboard. It's not very touring bike-friendly, particularly if you have flat handlebars. I suggest that you read through the discussion at https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?t=158863. 
4. You've chosen a challenging route north of Perth which is fine if you like big hills. There are alternatives which are longer but easier on the legs. You might be able to see the national cycle routes at https://explore.osmaps.com/find-routes if you turn on the cycle route layer. The alternative I would suggest is: Perth - Pitlochry (route 77) then route 7 to Inverness (two long but not steep hills - that's the route the trains use - and much of the cycle route is on what used to be the road which has been replaced). The route that I've been on north of Inverness is via Alness, Lairg and Bettyhill then along the north coast. South of Bettyhill, turn right at Altnaharra onto the B873 / B871 which is a quiet road. North of Lairg the Crask Inn https://www.thecraskinn.com/offerings is a welcome stop in the middle of nowhere but check in advance if it is open. Last year it was closed on Mondays so a fuel stop in Lairg was needed.

[mickeg]

I added headnet to the list.

I looked at that Smidge repellant, it uses Picaridin, 20 percent.  For years I have been using Sawyer repellant, that also uses 20 percent Picaridin.  Permethrin is something you can apply to clothing, I have treated some of my bike and camping clothing in the past.  (I think Permethrin is illegal in Canada for a user to treat clothing, but I am not sure on that.)  Sometimes I bring a small bottle of Deet in addition to the Picaridin.

I am not putting a lot of time into route planning right now, that is not time critical to accomplish soon.  But to everyone that made suggestions, thank you, I will be looking at that later.

Is London a very safe place to lock up a bike?  Two days ago I sent an e-mail to a London hostel asking if they have bike storage, no response yet.  One hostel listed bike storage on their website, but that hostel is less convenient.  I would really like to avoid parking my bike outside overnight in a large city.

Most of my bike tours are in cooler climates.  And most of them have involved cold rain.  For that I usually use rain pants and covers over my shoes.  First photo.

I did a tour in 2024, I assumed I would get rained on in warm conditions, too warm for rain paints.  Brought sandals that I had in a previous photo.  I also tried "Rain Legs" for warmer weather.  They worked rather well to keep the part of me between my waist and knees dry.  I will have to decide later just how much rain gear to carry on this trip.  I could use water proof socks on the sandals instead of shoe covers over bike shoes.  Decisions, decisions.  This route starts out with warmer climate, last part of the route is chillier. 

Second photo, the shoe covers appear to be missing, I suspect this photo was taken after the rain had quit but it was still chilly enough with wet pavement to keep the rest of my rain gear on.  I have many weeks to get my rain gear plan straightened out.

Regarding my bike on the train, from what I read I should not have any trouble as long as I can get a reservation.  Hang from a hook or put in a rack, does not really matter which, I should be ok.  My front rack might interfere with a bike rack however, so we will have to see.  The train websites I looked at discussed max width for front tires, I can easily comply.  I will try to remember to have some spare straps handy in case I need them.  On my Nomad Mk II, photos 3 and 4 shows my front rack.  These are not the stock Thorn racks.  Drop bars, less than 50 cm wide.

[JohnR]

I don't live in London but have got the impression that it would be unwise to leave any bike outside and unattended unless it's covered in mud and rust. And if someone spots that it's got a Rohloff hub then it's definitely a goner. Battery power angle grinders can quickly munch through most locks and sometimes it's less effort to cut through whatever the bike has been secured to. Similar precautions are applicable in the other big cities.

[RonS]

Hi, George

I’ve thought of a few things that may help with your planning. in no particular order, here they are.

UK trains;
Lightyears ahead of Amtrak and VIA. You will be impressed.
Depending on how much you plan to travel by train, it may be worth the £35 cost of a senior Railcard, which gives you a 1/3 discounted fare.

https://www.railcard.co.uk

Very unlike Amtrak and VIA, depending on the rail company, you can claim a fare refund for a late train. On LNER it is 50% for 30min and 100% for 60 minutes late arrival.
Fares are less with advance booking. Edinburgh to London is about £80 for a train tomorrow but only £40 if you book a month in advance.
The UK is serviced by different rail operators but the NationalRail phone app allows you to purchase tickets on any of them.

Like John, I use the Take-A-Look mirror that clips to glasses, although I clip mine to my helmet visor. What’s not widely known is that you can get a mirror drilled for use in places where they drive on the left. The wire frame is the same. They just drill the hole in the mirror on the opposite side. I have used it on my trips, and it makes adjustment for a good sight line so much easier.  Just email them and they’ll drop one in the mail.

I was reading a journal on CycleBlaze recently, and the author mentioned camping at Camping and Caravanning Club UK facilities. I had thought, based on the name and looking on their website, that these were member only campsites geared to motorized travellers. The author noted that there is an unadvertised policy of not turning away backpackers or cyclists. No membership needed. He stayed at several, and the price was £7 to £10. When I camped in Scotland in 2024 I paid £12 to £16 for a campsite.

https://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk

https://www.cycleblaze.com/journals/le2jog/

I second Paul’s recommendation for using Cycle.Travel for route planning.
Your RWGPS file shows taking the A9 from Inverness to John ‘o Groats. A quick look at street view will show you you don’t want to cycle there. JohnR’s route is much better. I can also vouch for the recommendation to check out the Crask Inn. When I stopped there in ’24 it was managed by a lovely couple (from Michigan!). You can pitch your tent in the back yard, but I took one of the reasonably priced rooms.

I was in Scotland in September ’24, the tail end of midge season. There were a few evenings when they were annoying, but one night at the boggy Torridon village campsite, I was happy to have a headnet. It’s one of those things where you won’t believe how bad they are until you see it first hand.

My last tidbit of wisdom has nothing to do with cycle touring, but, I think it’s the most important suggestion I can make. As a fellow lifelong resident of a right side traffic country, but one who has visited left hand traffic countries several times, I strongly suggest you practice this before you leave and never forget while you’re there, especially the first few days while your body is adjusting to the 6 hour time difference. I do this, and I believe it has saved me a world of hurt: every time you cross the street, say to yourself (I do it out loud) “LOOK RIGHT!”

Happy planning

On 14 May I will start cycling south from Inverness. If all goes according to plan, I will reach Hull and the ferry to Rotterdam on 4 June. Wouldn’t that be something if our paths crossed. I’ll keep a lookout for a yellow Nomad. Keep your eyes peeled for a black Raven

[in4]

3 things George, mindful of overload for you!
1. Avon make a product called Skin so Soft that the squaddies in Scotland use a midge repellant.
2. Parts of London are not safe and I'd certainly not leave your bike outside/ out of sight. Angle Grinders are about.
3. There's an app called trainline that many use for getting cheaper prices. If you are eligble for a Senior rail card then it might be worth getting one ( digital version available and you can store it within the trainline app for convenience.

https://www.thetrainline.com/

https://www.visitlondon.com/traveller-information/getting-around-london/cycling-in-london