What rims for world tour?

[Dude]

I thought I had made my mind up, but maby I could use some input...[]
You see I have two set of ceramic rims, 36h waiting to be laced up. One is Mavic D-521 and the other X-618.[:p]

After I have been touring with 521´s alot, i thought something lighter and more narrow would give me more speed. I have also been reading and wiewing images of 521 that have cracks around the eylets.[:0] This, I am told, was due to the single eylets. That´s why i got the X-618, but now I am not so sure any more...
Some people think Mavic´s Maxtal aluminium alloy is to blame for the problem with cracks around the eylets!
Any one with enough knowlege to shed some light on these issues[?]
(lets leave the ceramic debate for now![])

[bomber]

I'm not so sure about Mavic rims, but my Sun Rhynolite ones did 10000 miles of world touring and are now back on my mountain bike, true as ever with no spoke or eyelet troubles. I'd certainly recommend these.

[tynevalleycommuter]

My only experience of cracked rims was on the rear cassette side of a pair of shop-built Ambrosio Evolution 700C rims laced to campag athena hubs that I (used to) use for commuting. The rims are eyeleted, I travel on a mixture of road and cycle track, so it is not an entirely smooth journey. The shop concerned re-imbursed me for the cost of getting the wheel rebuilt, but I never got an answer from the manufacturer as ty why the rim had cracked. I suspect that it may have been laced up too tight, it was built in error with plain gauge spokes, and theoretically bomb-proof but I think with ligher spokes, they may have absorbed more of the shock and saved the rim??

[monkey]

I don't recommend Mavic either as they wear out too fast, crack, and die. Few years back I managed to crack half the rear rim all the way along the eyelets whilst doing a bit of touring with camping gear - only got as far as Austria. Evenso I think they are great for road racing.

For ultra long distance touring just get some Sun Rhyno rims, even just for the rear.

[John]

Having pulled the eyelets out of a Mavic rim on my touring tandem I replaced it with a Sun Rhyno which is still in one piece after much abuse. The non eyelet and very cheap Mavic X319s on my mountainbike tandem are doing better than the eyeletted D521s they replace.

[Dude]

Thanks for the replies!
But did any one of you write to answer my question?

I already have two set of new rims and was asking for your view on witch is the better one for long-distance touring!
The  fairly light, double-eyelet X-618 or the wider, thicker-wall, single-eyelet D-521[?]

The wheels on my earlier bike(Mavic D-521, XT-hubs, DT Comp. spokes/nipples, Schwalbe Marathon 1,75) stood up well, but felt a bit heavy, and I am trying to limit the weight of my gear to be able to move more swiftly.

Bomber: A set of well built wheels do not need 700-something grams per rim to stay true! It is after all the spokes doing the job.[]

tynevalleycommuter: I think your right! I have heard similar stories, and would recommend DT Competition with 2-1,8-2 mm thickness and brass nipples.

Monkey: On the basis of that incident you dismiss all Mavic rims? My two set of rims are Ceramic-coated so wear is not much of an issue. I have competed/trained on a similar Mavic X-117/217 for over ten years and they are still in good shape! [^]

John: Interesting! What conclusions could be made from that story?[:0]

Thanks and come again!

[John]

No conclusions, just the observation that the D521 is fragile round the eyelets even compared to a similar profile Mavic non-eyelet rim. Even double eyelets fail. In the bad old days Mavic M40 and M/T 261s always failed in the same way - the inner part of the eyelet popped off and the outer part pulled out of the rim.

I couldn't compare with the X618 because I've never used them but like you have used ceramic X117s on my moutain bike for 11 years including short periods on the mountain tandem - great rim. The D521 isn't. Despite the amount of metal in the D521 there isn't much where it matters - round the eyelets.

[Istanbul_Tea]

Perhaps try out Velocity Deep-V's?

[cass gilbert]

Dude,

I've had that problem in the past with Mavic D521s - after a short while, the rim began splitting around the nipples, a real bummer when you're in the middle of China - as I'm sure you'll appreciate. I then tried the Ceramic version and had no problems, but didn;t get the chance to do quite the same mileage for a full test. It put me off Mavic for a while - I know other heavily laden riders who have the same problem with 521s - so I've stuck to Sun since then, even though they're heavy.

This said, I'm thinking of trying a new set of D521 Ceramics on a bike I'm taking to India (with trailer instead of panniers) in a couple of weeks as Thorn have told me they've had no problems with them - so maybe there was a bad batch a while ago?!?

However, I've heard from several people that the 618s are a better, stronger rim for touring thanks, as you say, to the double eyelets - only problem is, Mavic no longer make them due to need to match the competition in weight - and lose an eyelet in doing so. So if you have a pair, I think they'd be a better choice to go for if you're after a light but relatively strong touring wheel.

I'll let you know how the 521s go - if I decide to go for them. Your post has stirred up uncertainty as the last thing I want is another rim failure just for a few measly hundreds of grams...

Cass

[Dude]

Thank you Cass for your reply!
I will be looking forward to reading a review of those wheels![:p]

I used a set of 521´s laced to XT disc compatible hubs with DT Competition spokes and brass nipples on my trip from Singapore to Kunming last year and a SE Asia roundtrip the year before.
Was heading for Hong Kong but due to Chinese authorities not revelling the facts about the Sars epidemic I change my trip and headed north. Had one to many close call with reckless Chinese lorry drivers on a very bad road so I opted for a nightbuss some of the way. The trip ended when the bike was lost in the night on the switchback roads since I had trusted a drunken bussdriver(!) tying it to the roof.[V]
Was found four month later by the local police and retrieved to me by a friend traveling in that area![^]

The front wheel hade a severe taco bend but after flexing my biceps and day fiddling with the spokewrench I was able to get the wheel straight![}:)]
No cracked eylets or damage ceramic coating!!![]
Had to sell that bike since the frame, a KHS Team Issue hardtail MTB with True Temper OX Ultra Gold tubes and no rackeylets, was less than ideal for heavy laden touring. [)]

I think those wheels were very sturdy and withstood allot of abuse without showing any sign of failing. But they were also a bit to heavy to get rolling for my liking.[xx(]
Due to the wide 521 rims the Schwalbe Marathon´s 1.75" tires spread wider, got a bigger footprint and higher rolling resistance than if they would have been mounted to a narrow and lighter rim like the Mavic X-517 or 618. But I did get the extra traction needed for those gravel/jeep tracks I encountered in Laos China and Cambodia.

I now have a Shimano Lx rear hub and one XT front hub with reinforced axel laying around that I was going to use with the 521´s. Have been toying with the idea to get a set of disc compatible XT hubs for the 618´s so I could swap them to my disc equipped MTB (when I take the plunge and build one...), or build a custom tourer(maybe a tandem if I could only find me a cycling dame [:I]) with discbrakes. But due to lack of current need and some negative response in other forums, I will probably just get a new Lx front hub, to use with the rear I have on the 521`s, and a new XT rear hub to use with the front one on the 618 rims![|)]

- Have been following the disc conversion of that British Racing Green steel MTB-frame of yours and read the travel stories you published in C+. Have you any experiences from heavy laden touring trips using discbrakes[?]
- Have you noticed any lack of strength due to the more narrow and offcentre spokes[?]

Hope you have a grrreat trip in India![:p]

--- To Infinity ----------- _o
--- and Beyond! ------ _\ \>
--- Chantí, Chanti! -- (_)/(_)
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[cass gilbert]

Dude,

Good to hear from you.

About the rims. In the event, I bottled out and went for Rhynos - so the bike really is a heavy XXXstard! Part of the reason I went for the Rhynos is that I'm meeting up to 'guide' a group later in the trip so I just wanted something ultra reliable at the expense of weight - next time, after your amazing experience with 521s (crazy story!) I think I'll try them again as they're light compared to Rhynos!! I'm really happy with the new bike though and spent yesterday tweaking the setup and generally smiling - Rohloff hub and Fox coil sprung forks should make it a great 'expedition' MTB bike so I can enjoy the trails too. The frame is a Thorn Catalyst - which is basically an Enduro with V brake bosses and slightly longer chainstays and rack mounts.

I'm trying some Schwalbe Hurricanes instead of Marathons this year (they're 250g lighter per wheel so I hope the bike handles a little more lively), but are still meant to be hardwearing enough for a few months riding on mixed terrain. Incidentally, Schwalbe are said to be bringing out a revised Marathon XR later in the year that is supposed to be as strong but considerably lighter than the existing model.    

That old green MTB (resprayed in Nepal) is my Rockhopper with which I travelled across Asia. C+ wanted to do a feature on converting V brakes to discs so I was lucky enough to have my bike butchered for free! I toured with it with mechanical dics (deore) for a month long trip in Morocco but the disc callipers interupted with the racks so I ended up trying one of the older BOBS - Tubus now do some nice mount extensions which seem to sort this problem out.

Overall, I was very happy with the setup, but ended up changing to hydraulic deores as they fit flusher and allowed me to run racks and panniers. I toured with the rockhopper in Sweden with a tent etc...(in December, brrrr!) and was really pleased with the added confidence of braking under load, lack of rim wear and performance where Vs probably would have frozen up given all the snow.

I've heard about potential problems given the offcentre spokes but my 36h wheelset have been fine - but have never met anyone on Asian tours with disc brakes though - just Magura rims. When I went to India last year I changed back to Vs though - mainly because i wanted simplicity seeing as the trip was longer and my knowledge of bleeding discs etc... is limited.

Why don't you build up your 618s with the new Shimano dual purpose hubs with the new fitting? They're nice and light too. I did ask one of the guys at What Mountain Bike magazine and he thought they'd be around for a good long while so you shouldn't have compatibility problems in the future.

I'm off to India in the morning - can't wait!!!!!! We're riding Shrinigar-Leh-Manali via Tso Moriri and Chandra Tal, and whatever else we have time for....

Good luck with your search for a tandem partner!!

Cass

[Dude]

Hi Cass!

The news of the Thorn Catalyst must be a world first![:0]
Could one get it with a stiff fork and attachments for both V and disc brakes?
I am in the process of getting a new frame for a world-tourer and had my eyes set on the eXp. But sins I am a MTB:er at heart maybe the Catalyst would be the bee´s knee´s![:p]
Met Andy at the Cycle 2003 show in London last year and had a look at the Raven Enduro w. the mini rear rack. Never got a chance to try it out though.[]
I actually e-mailed him some questions in -99 asking if they would consider build a Rohloff compatible frame. The reply said they doubt it was up for the task...[]

Hurricane´s don´t have the puncture protection of the Marathon´s, but with a trailer and for offroad riding it´s perfect. Would bring a spare one along though![]
Wish that Schwalbe would make some narrow foldable Marathon´s. Still have a set of XR 1.75", witch have been superseded by 1.9". To wide and heavy for all-round touring I think. The XR have a much more square profile so they don´t roll as easy as the plain 1.75" Marathon´s I used in on my first SE Asia trip.
Funny thing is that the much cheeper 1.75" Marathons have a five kg higher max load limit than the 1.75" XR(120kg).[:0]

Just got me self a pair of 1.5 Marathons for a shorter trip through the Baltic states.[:p] Very easy rolling when fully inflated and could still handle shorter stretches of gravel roads.
http://www.schwalbe.com/index.pl?bereich=produkte&einsatzbereich=4&produktgruppe=5&produkt=97&details=187
The issues of getting the racks on to a disk equipped frame should be a straight forward issue to solve. Orbit have been selling touring bikes with disc brakes for years.
I am the last person to sing a praise to the disc brakes. But they are getting very common, so it seems a bit daft for Thorn to not offer the disc brake mounts, at least as extra´s! For touring in countries with good infrastructure, and in the cold like you did, I think they are great. Touring Sweden in December!!! Brrr, hope she was worth it mate... []

Have not yet made my mind up about getting the Centerlock dischubs or not. Might still get some ordinary LX/XT hubs to use with the hubs I have. Is it the Centerlock you mean when you recommend "the new Shimano dual purpose hubs with the new fitting"[?]

Have heard great things about those parts of India. Have a wonderful time and take care!
Please keep the less fortunate posted![8D]

"Pedaling Pete"

--- "To Infinity ------ _o
--- and Beyond! --- _\ \>
--- Roam Free!" -- (_)/(_)
¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°¤ø,,,,ø¤ºº°`°¤ø,,,,