Author Topic: Re: chain type question  (Read 173 times)

in4

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Re: chain type question
« on: June 04, 2025, 11:22:24 AM »
I’ve always used 1/2 x3/32 KMC X1 chains on my MK2 Nomad. No issues at all.
Out of curiosity I went ChatGPT ing ( fatal time waster btw) and it was suggesting a 1/8 would last longer than a 3/32. If that were so I’m curious what the difference might be. Here’s the ChatGPT partial quote for reference:

With a Rohloff hub, bicycle chain longevity tends to be significantly better than on derailleur-based drivetrains because:
   •   The chain always runs straight (no cross-chaining).
   •   There’s less shifting stress.
   •   There’s typically better protection from dirt (especially on touring setups).

Expected Chain Life with a Rohloff Hub
   •   Typical range: 10,000–20,000 km
   •   Well-maintained chains (e.g. oil-lubed, kept clean): up to 25,000+ km
   •   In harsh conditions (e.g. grit, salt, or mud): as low as 8,000–10,000 km

The actual lifespan depends on:
   •   Maintenance (cleaning/lubing frequency)
   •   Chain quality (e.g. KMC X1 vs basic models)
   •   Riding conditions (gravel, rain, sand, winter salt)
   •   Load and torque (touring gear, rider weight, terrain)

Tips to Maximize Chain Life with Rohloff:
   •   Use a 1/8” chain (heavier duty and longer lasting than 3/32”).
   •   Consider chain tensioners or eccentric bottom brackets to maintain ideal tension.
   •   Use a chain wear checker (0.5% stretch for 1/8”, 0.75% for 3/32”) to avoid excess sprocket wear.
   •   Replace the chain before it’s excessively worn to extend the life of the rear sprocket and front chainring, which are harder to replace than the chain.

Would you like chain recommendations for a Rohloff-specific touring or bikepacking setup?

mickeg

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Re: chain type question
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2025, 12:25:39 PM »
I have never used any form of AI for anything, other than when I do a Google search then Google does use AI in the process.

So, are you asking a question here?  Are you asking if you should go to 1/8 inch single speed chain?

I have never looked into the KMC Rohloff sprockets, but I think they use a 1/8 inch chain.  So, for this reply I did a Google search to find more info on the KMC sprockets.
https://www.kmcchain.eu/e-bike-solutions/sprockets

I was surprised to learn that the KMC sprockets are aluminum, not steel.  I would expect much faster wear on the KMC sprockets for that reason.  So, if I was going to try a 1/8 inch chain, I would use the Rohloff sprockets.

I am surprised that the AI system did not find this page on the late Sheldon Brown website, I follow these recommendations for my Rohloff bike to extend chain and sprocket life.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/chain-life.html

Most on this forum bought their Rohloff hub from Thorn/SJS.  I bought my frame and fork from Thorn, but I built up my bike from parts and bought my Rohloff elsewhere.  For that reason, most on this forum use a 17T sprocket (the Thorn standard) and I use a 16T sprocket which is the default sprocket when you buy a Rohloff hub from a retailer.  Thus, I might be the only one on this forum that uses a sprocket with an even number of teeth as suggested by the late Sheldon.

Another point that I would have expected the AI system to mention was that if you use larger chainrings and sprockets, that should also extend chain life as the wear occurs when the chain flexes when it comes off of the sprocket and straightens out, and again when the chain flexes as that the wraps onto the chainring.  In other words, the wear is on the part of the chain that is under load during the flexing on that chain.  Larger sprockets and chainrings result in smaller flex angles, thus less wear.  Also there is less tension on the chain when that occurs with larger sprockets and chainrings, thus less wear for a second reason.

It does look like the AI system used generic chain wear percentages for replacement.  I run my Rohloff chain to 1 percent elongation, but my derailleur bikes (most are eight speed drivetrains) I change the chain at 0.75 percent. 

So, I would say that the AI system failed rather badly.

Most of my distance is ridden on derailleur bikes, not my Rohloff bike, so my chain experience on my Rohloff bike does not really matter here.  I will actually take a chain that was worn out on a derailleur bike to 0.75 percent, then put that on the Rohloff bike to get some more wear out of that chain before I discard it.  At this time I have three chains that were worn to 0.75 percent elongation set aside to put on my Rohloff bike later.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2025, 04:28:21 PM by mickeg »

PH

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Re: chain type question
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2025, 01:47:36 PM »
I’ve always used 1/2 x3/32 KMC X1 chains on my MK2 Nomad. No issues at all.
The pins are around a third longer, and it's those that wear.  All other things being equal, you might expect a third longer usage.  Though decent quality 1/8th chains are not as easy to source as 3/32th, there's a lot of cheap wide chains that are unlikely to have the same degree of pin hardening.  KMC's top 1/8th chain is 20% dearer than the narrower equivalent. Also for it to run as smooth, you'd also want to match it with a 1/8th sprocket and chainring, KMC do the sprocket, but it's aluminium and considerably dearer.  Likewise expect to pay more for the thicker chainring.  I can see how it might last longer, I'm doubtful it'd be better value.

AI has no intelligence of it's own, it's merely repackaging what's already available. Sometimes that's useful, other times you're better off looking for yourself.  if you do a google search for anything Rohloff, this forum comes up quite frequently, yet it only has a fairly small contributor base. So a lot of what AI knows it's learnt from the few of us!

« Last Edit: June 04, 2025, 01:49:15 PM by PH »

PH

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Re: chain type question
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2025, 01:55:32 PM »
I am surprised that the AI system did not find this page on the late Sheldon Brown website, I follow these recommendations for my Rohloff bike to extend chain and sprocket life.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/chain-life.html
We can only guess at the algorithms, but it's been pointed out elsewhere that the search bots weight the information by age.  Which seems a bit ridiculous in the context of anything as established as we're discussing here. 

in4

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Re: chain type question
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2025, 02:15:12 PM »
That’s interesting. I thought a heat map might have driven the results. AI is however still very much in learning mode.

John Saxby

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Re: chain type question
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2025, 10:37:51 PM »
Interesting exchange, guys - thanks.

Kudos, George, for invoking St Sheldon, and 👎 to AI's evident lack of curiosity and nous.  And, my Scottish ancestors would applaud your frugality in managing your chains  ;)


Andre Jute

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Re: chain type question
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2025, 01:18:25 AM »
Kudos, George, for invoking St Sheldon, and 👎 to AI's evident lack of curiosity and nous.

Not to mention Sheldon's partner in the crime of actually knowing what he/they were talking about, the sometime Porsche engineer Jobst Brandt, developments of whose brakes are still used in Formula One. It would be an interesting exercise to ask Mr A. I. Google if tread on bicycle tyres is a good idea. My forecast is that AI will report the popular side's misconceptions and ignore the scientific evidence; that is basically what makes the crowd-sourced Wiki so unreliable: that crowdsourcing in both AI, which calls it "scraping", and Wiki leads to responses hugging the lowest common denominator of stupidity. With the added aggravation in AI that all that is overlaid on its programmer's bias set in concrete in the operational algorithms of any particular brand of AI.

Here's a possible instance. At least one respondent above in this thread believes that AI scrapes this forum disproportionately for reasons he doesn't give but which are easy to imagine: there's a lot of technical bicycle discussion here, and there's a huge readership in relation to a small group of active contributors, both factors just about everyone with and IQ bigger than his shoe size would build into an algorithm. We see a result of this in what AI fed back about chains: AI appears to think eccentric bottom brackets are important totally out of proportion to EBBs in the total population of bottom brackets, or even Rohloff-equipped bikes. Now, where else would AI get such an idea, except on the Thorn forum?

It'll be a good while before AI is ready for primetime, though that hasn't stopped Google from sending it out to be ridiculed.

in4

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Re: chain type question
« Reply #7 on: Today at 02:44:38 AM »
There’s a good story re the accuracy of AI that’s worth bearing in mind.
Someone asked AI how long it should take to wash a football shirt in a washing machine. AI came up with X minutes. The person then asked AI how long it would take to wash 11 football shirts in a washing machine. Apparently the answer was X x 11!

Andyb1

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Re: chain type question
« Reply #8 on: Today at 08:22:28 PM »
Mickeg wrote…

I follow these recommendations for my Rohloff bike to extend chain and sprocket life.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/chain-life.html

I also use a 16T rear sprocket so read what Sheldon wrote with interest, but I am not sure I agree with it.

I can understand that by keeping the chain ‘in phase’ on a sprocket with an even number of teeth then the chain stretch (between rollers at opposite ends of the ‘wide’ links) will only wear specific teeth.  Which to me says that to equalise wear around the sprocket and hence extend sprocket life it is better to have one with an odd number of teeth which makes the chain go in and out ‘of phase’ every alternate rotation so that wear is equal on all teeth.
Or on a 16T sprocket to reverse the ‘phase’ every time the wheel is removed to average out wear.
The opposite of what Sheldon advises.

Certainly if the chain has been kept ‘in phase’ long enough to wear teeth then that phasing needs to be maintained when refitting a worn chain so that it meshes correctly with the worn and unworn pairs of teeth.

Danneaux

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Re: chain type question
« Reply #9 on: Today at 08:27:38 PM »
Andy,

You might enjoy this post from 13 years ago...
.
https://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4655.msg22911#msg22911

Best, Dan.

mickeg

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Re: chain type question
« Reply #10 on: Today at 10:21:32 PM »
I cut a tiny little slot in one tooth on my chainring and on my sprocket.  And with enough dirt I could not see that slot any more, so later put some yellow paint on that tooth on one side.  I always put an outer plate link on the tooth with a slot or yellow paint.

My chainline is slightly off, my bottom bracket spindle should probably be 10mm longer for ideal chainline.  But I wanted my pedal width (or Q Factor) narrower, thus I chose the narrower spindle.

Remember, most of my distance is ridden on derailleur bikes, so my Rohloff chain and sprocket does not get as much wear as most of you probably get on your bikes.  I am still on my first sprocket.

Photos are five years old, so I am sure I have a lot more wear now, I took these photos before I flipped the sprocket.

When you look at the first photo, the side of the sprocket you are looking at was on the outside, thus the chain pulled towards the right on top of the sproket.  It is quite evident that the links with inner plates were on the teeth that have more side tooth wear, the inner plates rubbed on the teeth as the chain engaged and later unengaged the sprocket.  The second photo is the inner side of the sprocket, because my chainline was slightly off, the second photo shows less wear on the inside side of the sprocket.

When you look at the teeth in either photo, they both appear to be quite worn with that shark fin shape, and if you only look at the teeth you can't really see which teeth are worn the most.  But, keep in mind that when that sprocket was new, the hole under each tooth was centered under that tooth. 

Now if you look at the position of the tooth over that hole in the first photo, both teeth appear to be shifted a bit to the right of that hole but the tooth that had inner plate wear is shifted even further to the right of the hole below it than the notched tooth.  Actually the teeth did not get shifted to the right, a bunch of the metal on the left side of each tooth is now gone, which is why the teeth are no longer centered over the holes.

So, I think what is happening here is the chain and teeth wore in together, since every other chain link was slightly longer, now that means that the sprocket teeth have worn to match that chain wear.  So, every other tooth is worn a bit more.  Thus, I think that each tooth now was engaging each roller on the chain evenly. 

But if I had a worn chain where every other link was longer, and if I had a sprocket with odd number of teeth, only every other chain roller would be pulling on every other tooth because the teeth would have worn evenly when the chain did not wear evenly.

Immediately after I took the photos, the sprocket was flipped.  So, after the photos were taken, the sides of the teeth that had no wear before started wearing every other tooth more to match the worn chain.  For the last several years I have stopped putting new chains on my Rohloff bike, instead I only put chains on it that are already at 0.75 elongation from use on one of my derailleur bikes.  So, I am consistently putting worn chains on worn teeth.

Yeah, I am sure I sound quite obsessive on this.  That was not my intent.  I am just trying to be quite complete with my thinking on this matter.

I have an eight speed drive train on my randoneuring (or audax) bike, light touring bike (titanium frame), medium touring bike (Thorn Sherpa), my folding bike (Airnimal Joey).  And a seven speed drive train on my errand bike.  So, I wear out a lot of derailleur chains that will fit on my Rohloff bike.  My road bike has a 10 speed drive train, but I have not yet worn out any chains on it, it is my newest bike.