Author Topic: Drive belt V wax chain  (Read 264 times)

KDean

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Drive belt V wax chain
« on: April 30, 2025, 10:07:42 AM »
I've recently  waxed my chain on my Surly Ogre with Rohloff  using the Silca kit & I'm really surprised at how I now prefer it over my  Olsen with Pinion  drive bet .The drive belt is ok until it starts squeaking & I didn't think the chain would feel more efficient as it does .When I get my Thorn sorted out I'll definitely be using a chain.   

WorldTourer

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Re: Drive belt V wax chain
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2025, 12:06:33 PM »
I have done about 20,000 km now on a belt drive, and I have never had any squeaking sounds. Much of my riding is offroad through very dusty terrain, too. When people report their belt drive making sounds, I always suspect that something was installed improperly on their setup.

energyman

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Re: Drive belt V wax chain
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2025, 06:55:14 PM »
All my belt drive bikes (4) are silent.  A squeak must mean something (alignment ?) is not as it should be.  My chain RST is silent too.

Tiberius

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Re: Drive belt V wax chain
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2025, 10:21:19 AM »
I'm 5 years in on waxed chains - Rohloff, roughly 25,000 miles - and wouldn't go back to oil. I'm also just 9 months in on a belt - Pinion, roughly 3,000 miles - and I prefer it to a waxed chain. This bike is used daily near the coast and is regularly subjected to sand and sea water - the belt has never squeaked and has had literally zero maintenance. I didn't think that I could 'forget' all about transmission maintenance but I have since going with the belt drive. I did mess about with the belt when I first got it, learning how to put it on/off, getting the correct tension via the Gates app etc, but since then I haven't touched it - I really have forgotten all about it.

 I obviously need to do a few more years on the belt to draw any real conclusions, but so far so good.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2025, 10:26:34 AM by Tiberius »

mickeg

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Re: Drive belt V wax chain
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2025, 11:38:33 AM »
When I built up my Nomad Mk II in 2013, I wanted a 26 inch wheel heavy duty touring bike with a Rohloff hub and S&S couplers.  Compared the Nomad against another brand that offered belt drive as an option.

I chose chain for one reason.  I knew that for heavy duty touring I would want lower gears than I would want for riding around near home with an unladen bike. 

Thus, when I go on a tour, I put a 36T chainring on it, take out four chain links.  When I get home, I put a 44T chainring on it, add four chain links (with a second quick link) for use around home.

I have also considered a trip where I might have wanted a 40T chainring for in between those two ranges, but have not set it up that way yet.

That would be more complicated and costly to do with a belt.

When my chain is noisy, it is telling me that it wants more lube.

I am quite happy with my decision to stay with chains on my Rohloff bike.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2025, 11:09:06 AM by mickeg »

PH

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Re: Drive belt V wax chain
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2025, 11:38:22 PM »
There is something special about getting your bike running nice and liking the feel of it.  And there's no doubt clean, well lubricated chains are efficient, though anything beyond that is a bit speculative.  Testing showed that a Rohloff, with a standard lubricated chain was 94% efficient in direct drive. I'm not suggesting that can't be improved, but there isn't a lot to go at! 
A bit difficult to compare to a belt drive Pinion, I don't know how you'd know where any losses were coming from, gearbox or belt.
I remain belt curious, but I'm not sure I'll ever take the financial hit to satisfy the itch.  I think I've spent about the price of a belt drive on chain components in the 23 years I've had my oldest hub, I doubt a belt would have lasted that long, and in that time I've also changed ratios three times.

Andre Jute

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Re: Drive belt V wax chain
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2025, 01:18:44 AM »
Testing showed that a Rohloff, with a standard lubricated chain was 94% efficient in direct drive.

I'm suspicious of the implications commonly drawn from that number, for which read passim in the newsgroups of committed cyclists.

All you have to do to lock in that 94% number for a chain-driven Rohloff as its average efficiency is to fit a Hebie Chainglider, which I've conclusively proven obviates chain maintenance for the life of the chain.

By comparison to the open Rohloff/chain setup we often hear of 98 or 99% efficiency for a derailleur open chain transmission. But that is clearly the efficiency for a just-serviced chain and its entire set of toothed wheels. On both the Rohloff with the open chain and the derailleur bike with an open chain, efficiency will be compromised downwards from the moment the bike is ridden, more so on the derailleur bike than on the Rohloff, in a first rough approximation by the ratio of two gearwheels on the Rohloff to the sum of however many gearwheels there are on the sprocket cluster plus chainrings on the pedal axle of the derailleur bike.

It's difficult not to conclude that both the open chain bikes' efficiency will soon fall below 94%, the derailleur bike's efficiency falling faster than that of the Rohloff bike.

I think that, in the light of what we've been told here by users about belts running clean and silent, the belt may also have a high level of stability in its efficiency, whatever it starts at, perhaps even comparable, ceteris paribus, to the average efficiency of a Rohloff with its chain running inside a Chainglider, which is also the Rohloff/chain/Chainglider combo's maximum efficiency.

Doesn't mean I shall be installing a belt anytime soon, because a Hebie Chainglider, installed with all taxes and carriage paid, costs about 70 Euro, against probably 600 Euro for a belt -- which makes it impossible to change drive ratios without committing to the entire expense again.



mickeg

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Re: Drive belt V wax chain
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2025, 11:59:51 AM »
...  And there's no doubt clean, well lubricated chains are efficient, though anything beyond that is a bit speculative.  Testing showed that a Rohloff, with a standard lubricated chain was 94% efficient in direct drive. I'm not suggesting that can't be improved, but there isn't a lot to go at!  ...

I recall reading some statistics on different drive train efficiency performed in a laboratory several years ago.  For that particular testing they used a new Rohloff hub, not one that had been ridden for several thousand km to break it in.  I am quite sure that my 12 year old Rohloff is now much more efficient now than it was new, both from polishing off the gears and also seals that have seen a lot of rotation over those years. 

That said, I am sure many of you use your Rohloff hub(s) much more than I do, most of my riding is on derailleur bikes.  I built up the Rohloff bike for heavy duty touring and have not done a tour with it since pre-covid.  Thus, I am sure many of you have more efficient hubs than mine.

And there are so many different chain lubes with varying efficiency, that it is hard to make a good comparison.  That said, lab tests should use the same lube between all tests when using chains.

I recall reading an article about six years ago comparing two different derailleur drive trains, a 1X against a 2X system.  And they measured friction loses in each gear.  The gears with larger sprockets and chainrings had less friction because as the chain leaves the sprocket and engages the chainring, the change of angle at the chain pins and chain plates was less angle with larger chainrings and sprockets.  And better chainline also had lower friction.  Thus, in this case there was huge variation from one gear to the next.  Fortunately, I saved the graphic from the article to my hard drive, attached it.  I saved this to my hard drive in May 2019, but I do not recall which publication I pulled that from.

Referring to that plot, what really surprises me is how many people use a 1X system for racing on courses like the Great Divide when that plot suggests that they would have much less wattage loss with a 2X system when they are in the higher gears.  But, in this case a lot of people are racing with higher rolling resistance.
https://bikepacking.com/bikes/rigs-of-the-2024-tour-divide-stats/

My point is that when there is this much variation in friction from gear to gear, it is pretty hard to aggregate that into a single number for broad assumptions.

In 2014 as I was finishing up my bike tour in Iceland, I met someone that had converted his Rohloff to belt.  He was traveling with three other friends.  He said that the belt added some friction, the way he knew that was because his friends were a bit faster than he was after the conversion than before he converted to belt.

Also, when I turn on my dyno powered lights, I think I am adding about 5 or 6 watts of rolling resistance, but I am unable to feel the difference when doing that.  And when riding with friends so I can compare my speed and effort with theirs, it does not seem to change my rolling resistance at all if my lights are on or off.  My assumption on drag with a dynohub is based on the first graphic at this link:
https://www.cyclinguk.org/sites/default/files/document/migrated/publication/feature-hub-dynamos.pdf
The date on that link is quite old, but dynohub designs have not changed much.  Most of my hubs are SP PV8 hubs.

I usually leave my dynohub lights turned on unless I am instead using the hub to charge batteries, I do not consider that extra drag when deciding if I should have my lights on or off.  And if I was going to get that concerned about drag when using the hub to charge batteries, I would charge batteries more often on the electric mains instead of from my muscles.

For me, the reduced maintenance for a belt is not a consideration.  I worked in a bike shop before I went to college, most of my bikes are ones I built up from parts.  I do not mind doing maintenance on a bike at all.  But I know people that detest doing bike maintenance, I know an attorney (I think you call them solicitors in UK) that went into a bike shop and said he wanted the closest thing there was to a maintenance free bike.  They sold him one with a Shimano IGH.  He is very happy with it.  Every couple years he brings it into a bike shop and asks them to do whatever it needs.  The only maintenance he does is adding air to the tires.