Bike Friday All Packa

[jul]

Hi all,

Do you know this bike !? it seems great 

https://bikefriday.com/product/2024-all-packa/?srsltid=AfmBOoo6ADUyp489OY_LxvLSAFGVIeSZEC7_vODsn7le9rBc0zGZ-Lfm

[mickeg]

I am in USA where they are made, so if I was looking for a 20 inch wheel folder, I would give it consideration.

I remember seeing this article about them, so did a quick search to find the link:
https://bikepacking.com/bikes/bike-friday-all-packa-review/

I am not sure which parts are specific to small wheel folders, example is the front hub normal width or extra narrow like some folders?  I am inclined to prefer a model where as many components as possible are normal bike components, like my Airnimal Joey which has a drive train and front wheel that are normal components.

Since Dan has in the past asked us not to elaborate in detail on non-Thorn bikes on this forum that is sponsored by Thorn, I will stop here.

[Danneaux]

The BF factory is 4.8km from my house and I see this model on the streets regularly now after noticing the prototypes for a time.

No Folder directly competes with anything in Thorn's line, but SJS Cycles are stockists for the new G-line (gravel) series of Brompton...
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/brompton/?geoc=US
...aimed squarely at the bikepacking gravel/market and equipped with larger 20in wheels. Pulling the thread 'round a bit, Folders (and separables) certainly have their place in the touring world, but it is good to ask yourself if the folding/separating option is needed/worth the extra cost in money and function for the times you'll use it. George has a bike with the Ritchey separable design and a coupled Nomad. Members here have had Nomads and some other Thorns (usually a custom option on those!) equipped with S&S Bicycle Torque Couplings. They all have their place and can be ideal in certain circumstances. George has generously shared a lot about the nuances of his S&S coupled Nomad (easily found in the Forum archives through the search function) and has taken it on a number of trips where he has used other transport to reach his tour start. This seems an ideal application.

Some dedicated Folders may not be so ideal or just right, depending on intended use. Depending in terrain, bikepacking might be less stressful on frames and hinges than would heavier 6-bag loaded touring. People have gone tremendous distances on Bromptons and any bike can go anywhere, but not with equal ease and facility, often due to lack of frame triangulation and small wheels. I own an original unserialed BF New World Tourist, a 1970 Motobecane Astra U-frame folder with 406mm wheels, and my own nearly finished custom full-sus Folder, also with 406mm wheels.

I'd say if your intended tour depends on multimodal transport (i.e. bike, train, taxi, boat, plane), a dedicated Folder might be more ideal than otherwise. On the other hand, a separable will ride most like a "regular" bike because it is pretty conventional, aside from its take-apart function.

Best, Dan.

[mickeg]

Dan, good comments.

I think wheel size is also a factor.  I used to travel a lot for work.  Considered buying a folder for that.  And read an article about the Airnimal Joey where they were saying that it felt as good as riding a full size bike with the larger 24 inch wheels.  I decided to buy a Joey frame and fork, and build it up for travel.  And immediately after that, I got a different job, was not getting on airplanes many times a year for work any more.  So, that was a wasted effort.

Then, tried to buy the suitcase for the Joey.  Could not buy it in USA.  Then I learned that British Air at that time had a more lenient policy for luggage size than USA airlines.  And that article that sold me on the Joey was in a British publication.  So, suddenly I had a folding bike that was too big to fit in USA sized luggage.  At that point, if I could have easily sold it, I would have.  But it really had no great advantage to a potential buyer.

Then years later, I had bought my S&S coupled Nomad Mk II, had traveled with that, came home from one trip and I was looking inside the empty S&S case thinking that it was a huge amount of space.  So, I tried to put my Airnimal into it, and it fit.  Took a lot of work, had to remove fork and crankarms, but it fit.

Then, in 2017 went on a trip with two friends on an ACA van supported trip.  This means every day we would be riding bikes, but not carrying any gear.  Thus, road bikes were the ideal choice. 

The other two people that i was traveling with packed their full size bikes into boxes to be shipped by BikeFlights, that is more convenient and cheaper than carrying a bike on the plane.  I planned the same thing, got a bike box from a bike shop.  Then less than a week before the trip tried to pack my titanium bike in the box, it would not fit.  Could not find any other bike boxes in town. 

Crisis.  (This was before I bought my Ritchey Break Away.)  So, had a choice, which bike do I put in the S&S case to take on the plane.  Decided to take the Airnimal.  It took almost as much time to pack as packing my Nomad MK II in the case, but it did work out well. 

I was quite pleased with how my Airnimal worked on that trip.  It handled very well, especially when you consider that everyone else in the group had road bikes or a few had touring bikes.

First and second photos, the bike.

Third photo, one night we stayed in a motel, it was easier to carry my Airnimal up the stairs using the first fold than unfolded, so I did that, it was also more convenient to store in the room that way.

Fourth photo of me walking out of the airport, wearing the S&S Backpack case with my Airnimal, wheeling my other carry on and carrying a carry on bag.  The S&S case is hard to see being black with a dark background, but it was easy enough to carry the bike that way.

In summary:

I think the Airnimal rides as well as a full size bike, I credit the 24 inch wheels.  The front wheel has less gyroscopic effect, so steering is a little faster.  And the tall seatpost extender has some flex that took me a while to get used to.  But otherwise it worked great.

But the Airnimal is too complicated to pack, takes to long.  But I can see a 20 inch wheel folder being a great traveling bike if it can be packed in the case a lot faster than the Airnimal.

[martinf]

I think wheel size is also a factor.

Wheel size is a factor, but in my opinion overstated if riding only on good road surfaces.

Riding off road and on bad roads with potholes is much better with big wheels, that's why farm tractors and military vehicles generally have big wheels.

About 20-25 years ago I had a couple of old Moultons with 16" wheels. On ordinary roads these rode very well, despite the rather heavy frame and the limited gearing, 2-speed and 5-speed hub gears to start with. When I fitted one of these Moulton's with drop handlebars and a 7-speed cassette hub, and later a 3x7 DualDrive system, it was nearly as fast as my lightweight 700C derailleur bike on good roads. And significantly more comfortable for long distance rides because of the Moulton front and rear suspension.

I think the main factors for the slightly better performance of the 700C bike were its higher quality tyres and the slightly lower transmission efficiency of the Moulton's small 11 and 13 tooth sprockets as compared to the generally larger sprockets on the 700C bike, I don't think the lighter weight of the 700C bike or the small Moulton wheels contributed very much.

I've tried a few folding or splittable frame bikes, and finished up by using Brompton folders when I need to pack a bike for other transport. My first Brompton, in 2001, came from SJS Cycles as Bromptons weren't easy to find in France.  The Brompton packs very small, folds very quickly and can be taken on high speed trains in Europe and in other situations when most other bikes are forbidden.

The Brompton doesn't ride as well as a Moulton or a full size bike, and isn't so comfortable (no front suspension and less effective rear suspension than a Moulton). But it is a good compromise for me, to the extent that I have done more than 40,000 kms with Bromptons. I reckon the performance hit compared to a good touring bike is about 10% as measured in average speeds on reasonably good roads. This is worse on off-road stretches, but when things get really bad the Brompton is easier to carry than a normal bike on unrideable bits and over gates and fences.

I haven't tried one, but I reckon that for mixed road and path riding the new model G-line 20" Brompton sold by SJS should be a reasonably good compromise between ease of folding, compactness and better performance on tracks and paths than the 16" version.

[PH]

I think the Airnimal rides as well as a full size bike, I credit the 24 inch wheels.  The front wheel has less gyroscopic effect, so steering is a little faster.  And the tall seatpost extender has some flex that took me a while to get used to.  But otherwise it worked great.

But the Airnimal is too complicated to pack, takes to long.  But I can see a 20 inch wheel folder being a great traveling bike if it can be packed in the case a lot faster than the Airnimal.

Airnimal works OK for me if I'm only packing at the start and end of the trip, takes about 15 min, though that's for train and coach, I don't fly.  I had one before, but changed it when I needed something for a train commute. the Airnimal wasn't suitable, not so much a time thing as too awkward a package.
I'd be tempted to try a 20" Brompton, though I dislike the standard version.  As I move into retirement, having something I can take on the bus would be an advantage. 
While thinking of 20" wheel folders, there's also the Airnimal Rhino, though I don't know much about it.

[mickeg]

...
While thinking of 20" wheel folders, there's also the Airnimal Rhino, though I don't know much about it.
...

I completely forgot that Airnimal made that bike.  I was aware of it over a decade ago, but have never seen one.

***

If I was younger and anticipated much travel on trains, I would look closely at that new Bike Friday Al Packa.  But, I have everything I need for bikes right now.

Last summer I rode a bus and then Amtrak (the USA train system) to start and finish a bike tour.  Attached photo is my titanium bike and luggage inside the train station in Chicago.  I could only have two checked pieces of luggage, and my bike was one of those two pieces.  For this route, Amtrak has a "train side bicycle check" option for my bike, I hand my bike to an Amtrak employee in the baggage car, that employee puts it into a bike rack.  The red mesh duffel on the floor in the photo has my four Ortlieb panniers, that is my other checked bag.  Fortunately, Amtrak luggage sizes are much more flexible than airline luggage sizes.

On that trip, I also had to limit the number of my luggage pieces for the bus segment, the panniers were in that red duffle, and the bike went into the luggage bay.  No photo.