Author Topic: Rohloff now only gives 13 gears  (Read 8610 times)

PH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2396
Re: Rohloff now only gives 13 gears
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2023, 02:20:44 PM »
STOP!
If your photos are correct. your OEM plate is not positioned correctly, do not ride your bike like this.
Excuse the crude diagram, this cutout should surround a bolt or fitting, it's what stops the hub rotating, have you removed something?  It looks like it would line up with that top hole.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2023, 02:29:58 PM by PH »

Dunroving

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
Re: Rohloff now only gives 13 gears
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2023, 02:51:11 PM »
STOP!
If your photos are correct. your OEM plate is not positioned correctly, do not ride your bike like this.
Excuse the crude diagram, this cutout should surround a bolt or fitting, it's what stops the hub rotating, have you removed something?  It looks like it would line up with that top hole.

I've attached clearer photos of its current position (which is different from the photos I posted previously, that you are responding to). I have also attached the only screen grab I have ever found that has a similar modular drop-out set-up to mine (and I've Googled for it several times before).

I agree with what you are saying - intuitively, the U-shaped notch at the top of the OEM plate looks like it should be "doing something" (otherwise, why is it there?), but I don't recall it ever having a fixing there. Having said that, I have installed and remove mudguards using the various bolt-holes and it is possible (.....) that in doing this, I've removed a bolt that belongs in one of the holes in the drop-outs.

From the first two photos of my bike, the groove in the OEM doesn't look to be in much of a different position to the one in the Shand video screen-grab (third photo). Also, the notch in the OEM is directly behind the top bolt-hole in the drop out (see last photo, taken from the reverse side, looking through the wheel). So, if everything I've said is correct in terms of position, and what you've said is correct in terms of securing the OEM in place, do I just need to screw in a bolt that is long enough to prevent the OEM rotating? (having said that, it feels very secure as it is; if it makes any difference, my rear wheel is attached via thru-axle).

Thanks for persisting; I need to get this done right.

Dunroving

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
Re: Rohloff now only gives 13 gears
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2023, 02:55:13 PM »
(Sorry about the rubbish photos; reducing the file size doesn't reduce the image size in the post, but does seem to mess up the resolution - and I can't reduce any smaller using my very basic photo software)

mickeg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2801
Re: Rohloff now only gives 13 gears
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2023, 03:02:08 PM »
I have not looked at any of your photos.  I am just making generic responses.

My cables, I have about a half of a gear shift position of looseness.  Thus, if I am in gear 9, my shifter can easily move from position 8.5 to 9.5 without doing anything.  It seems to work just right for me, so I keep it that way.

Years ago when I first bought my Rohloff I had them tighter, but would occasionally not have it shift right, loosening them to the point where I am not has fixed that.

Dunroving

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
Re: Rohloff now only gives 13 gears
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2023, 03:08:49 PM »
I have not looked at any of your photos.  I am just making generic responses.

My cables, I have about a half of a gear shift position of looseness.  Thus, if I am in gear 9, my shifter can easily move from position 8.5 to 9.5 without doing anything.  It seems to work just right for me, so I keep it that way.

Years ago when I first bought my Rohloff I had them tighter, but would occasionally not have it shift right, loosening them to the point where I am not has fixed that.

Thanks, Mick, it's basic personal experiences like this that help to reassure me whether mine is correct. Since I adjusted the barrel adjusters to give more play at the cable box end, the loosey-gooseyness of the twist shifter has improved (not so loose) - which seems counterintuitive, but that's what it is.

I've come to the conclusion that the issue I was having with only 13 gears and with loosey-goosey twist shifter is primarily one of adjusting cable tightness, plus making sure the twist shifter is in position 14 (or 1) and the gears are also in gear 14 (or 1) when I replace the cable box (EX box). Thanks again.

Just need to check the OEM issue now! I've sent photos to the person who made my bike to ask him about the OEM, also, and will post here with what he says.

PH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2396
Re: Rohloff now only gives 13 gears
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2023, 03:41:29 PM »
I agree with what you are saying - intuitively, the U-shaped notch at the top of the OEM plate looks like it should be "doing something" (otherwise, why is it there?), but I don't recall it ever having a fixing there. Having said that, I have installed and remove mudguards using the various bolt-holes and it is possible (.....) that in doing this, I've removed a bolt that belongs in one of the holes in the drop-outs.
I'm glad you've contacted Shand, their photo clearly shows the OEM plate captured by a bolt, that is the purpose of the plate, you can wreck a hub or frame running without. The type of axle makes no difference.  You can buy a bolt specifically for it, though it isn't uncommon for it to share a fitting with a rack and/or guards. I can't imagine Shand would have supplied a bike without.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/rohloff-support-bolt-for-axle-plate-oem2-8560/

Photos - This forum is pretty poor for showing photos, to make them clear, you need to reduce the pixel size rather than the file size, otherwise when we click the thumbnail we get a huge sized, poor quality image, compare the Shand photo with your own.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2023, 03:47:09 PM by PH »

Dunroving

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
Re: Rohloff now only gives 13 gears
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2023, 03:50:11 PM »
I agree with what you are saying - intuitively, the U-shaped notch at the top of the OEM plate looks like it should be "doing something" (otherwise, why is it there?), but I don't recall it ever having a fixing there. Having said that, I have installed and remove mudguards using the various bolt-holes and it is possible (.....) that in doing this, I've removed a bolt that belongs in one of the holes in the drop-outs.
I'm glad you've contacted Shand, their photo clearly shows the OEM plate captured by a bolt, that is the purpose of the plate, you can wreck a hub or frame running without.  You can buy a bolt specifically for it, though it isn't uncommon for it to share a fitting with a rack and/or guards. I can't imagine Shand would have supplied a bike without.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/rohloff-support-bolt-for-axle-plate-oem2-8560/

Photos - This forum is pretty poor for showing photos, to make them clear, you need to reduce the pixel size rather than the file size, otherwise when we click the thumbnail we get a huge sized, poor quality image, compare the Shand photo with your own.

Thanks - and for the advice on resizing photos. I rarely use online forums these days and even more rarely do I upload photos.

Just to clarify , it wasn't Shand who built the bike. I contacted the frame builder who built the bike (I won't include the name as I wouldn't want anyone to think he messed up, because he definitely didn't; he's very experienced with Rohloff builds). He's confirmed that there would have been a fancy-looking washer/nut that either came loose (unlikely) or I stupidly removed when removing the mudguards. I haven't been able to find the original in my magnetic tray of nuts and bolts, but he's said in the meantime, any appropriately-sized nut and bolt will do the job. So, the OEM axle plate is definitely in the right place (had to move it a mm to get the nut in), and it looks like I have 14 gears - haven't test-ridden it yet as it's chucking down, but hopefully that's me sorted.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2023, 03:55:08 PM by Dunroving »

Dunroving

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
Re: Rohloff now only gives 13 gears
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2023, 03:51:01 PM »
I agree with what you are saying - intuitively, the U-shaped notch at the top of the OEM plate looks like it should be "doing something" (otherwise, why is it there?), but I don't recall it ever having a fixing there. Having said that, I have installed and remove mudguards using the various bolt-holes and it is possible (.....) that in doing this, I've removed a bolt that belongs in one of the holes in the drop-outs.
I'm glad you've contacted Shand, their photo clearly shows the OEM plate captured by a bolt, that is the purpose of the plate, you can wreck a hub or frame running without. The type of axle makes no difference.  You can buy a bolt specifically for it, though it isn't uncommon for it to share a fitting with a rack and/or guards. I can't imagine Shand would have supplied a bike without.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/rohloff-support-bolt-for-axle-plate-oem2-8560/

Photos - This forum is pretty poor for showing photos, to make them clear, you need to reduce the pixel size rather than the file size, otherwise when we click the thumbnail we get a huge sized, poor quality image, compare the Shand photo with your own.

And HUGE thanks for spotting the incorrect OEM axle plate position in my cr@p photo!
« Last Edit: July 08, 2023, 03:54:46 PM by Dunroving »

mickeg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2801
Re: Rohloff now only gives 13 gears
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2023, 10:01:33 PM »
I finally looked at your photos.

Your photos clearly show a part on the cable adjuster not fitted quite right.

The cylindrical part that the threaded adjuster is threaded into, both of those should be horizontal and inset part way into the EX box.  The lower one is correct, the upper one is not.

This photo shows it correct.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2023, 10:06:21 PM by mickeg »

Dunroving

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
Re: Rohloff now only gives 13 gears
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2023, 01:08:46 PM »
Just an update to tie everything together. I'll bullet point it, to make it easier to follow:

(1) Initial issue was only getting 13 gears, as per title. Bottom line is that in the end, this was a cable management issue, tied in with the fact I had the OEM axle plate incorrectly positioned. However, from what I learned over the course of these messages, I'd recommend the first port of call for anyone experiencing the same problem would be to remove the EX box, and use an 8 mm spanner on the nut that's normally inside the EX box to check that they can get 14 gears (13 clicks). Also, check at the same time that the twist shifter moves freely from 1 to 14. If the answer is "Yes" to both of these, use the 8 mm spanner to rotate the nut fully anti-clockwise into 14th gear. Rotate the twist shifter to 14th gear also, and then replace the EX box. (Of course you could do the opposite - rotate the nut fully clockwise and put the twist shifter in 1st gear). Especially if the EX box has been removed at some point recently, this to me is the obvious first thing to try.

(2) Thanks to eagle-eyed PH, I realised my axle plate was (a) in the wrong position, and (b) not secured by a nut running through the modular drop-out, to sit within the U-shaped notch. This was also causing my upper cable to be incorrectly positioned, jammed up against the chainstay. I think for most people, this won't be the issue, but always worth checking. I've explained how (I think) this happened below, with a "note to self and others".

(3) I discovered (again) that searching for solutions to these types of problems can be quite difficult, especially because not all Rohloff hubs are installed the same, depending on frame type, etc. In fact I have only found one photo on the whole of the interWeb that has a similar set-up to mine - the Shand YT video demonstrating how to remove a Rohloff-equipped wheel (albeit their wheel is QR and mine is thru-axle). Of course, I'm sure the answer is somewhere in the Rohloff manual, but it's one of those Catch 22 situations where if you don't know what you are looking for, you won't find it, even if it's there somewhere ...

Note to self and others: If you have a new bike that is equipped in a way you are not familiar with, take detailed photos of anything and everything. That way, if you ever take it apart, or wonder if something has become out of position or out of adjustment, or may be missing something, you can look at the photo. I *think* my axle plate issue arose when I removed the mudguards I had fitted. One of the bolts that secures the rear mudguard runs through the mudguard eyelet, through the modular drop-out, and out the other side, to - you guessed it - the U-shaped notch in the axle plate. I remember removing the mudguard, screwing all the bolts back into the frame/dropouts and then trying to re-install the wheel, but I couldn't get the EX box into position. I realised that it was because the torque arm couldn't rotate far enough anti-clockwise - the bolt described above was sticking out too far, preventing the axle plate from rotating any further - so I removed the bolt thinking it was long in order to go through the mudguard eyelet. What I didn't realise was that the axle plate must have moved (clockwise) while I had the wheel off, that I should have removed the bolt far enough to rotate the axle plate into its correct position, and re-installed the bolt. Lesson learned!

Thanks for all the replies, you really helped.

Dunroving

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
Re: Rohloff now only gives 13 gears
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2023, 01:46:27 PM »
Post-script: Here's a photo of Shand's Bahookie Rohloff set-up, that shows very clearly the position of the axle plate, and the special nut that *should be* holding it in place. It's even clearer than the video screen grab I posted previously.

Having seen that now, I know for sure that I never removed anything resembling that, as it's so unique I would have remembered it - plus, it LOOKS like it's doing a very specific job. Curiouser and curiouser .... I wonder if it came unstuck when I was hurtling down the lumpy-bumpy slopes of the Trans Cambrian Way ...

JohnR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
Re: Rohloff now only gives 13 gears
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2023, 04:24:46 PM »
Post-script: Here's a photo of Shand's Bahookie Rohloff set-up, that shows very clearly the position of the axle plate, and the special nut that *should be* holding it in place. It's even clearer than the video screen grab I posted previously.
The special nut is Rohloff part 8552 https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/rohloff-oem2-adapter-for-m5-fender-luggage-rack-bolt-8552/. I know it well having fitted a Rohloff hub onto a derailleur frame using the OEM axleplate and that nut for torque management http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14396.msg108175#msg108175.

If your nut has disappeared and you aren't getting any small rotation of the hub under different loading conditions (it should twist one way in gears below 11 and the other way in gears above 11) then this shows that friction can hold the hub in place under normal usage and Rohloff's design is for the worst case https://www.rohloff.de/en/service/handbook/speedhub/assembly/torque-anchoring.

Dunroving

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
Re: Rohloff now only gives 13 gears
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2023, 05:19:48 PM »
Post-script: Here's a photo of Shand's Bahookie Rohloff set-up, that shows very clearly the position of the axle plate, and the special nut that *should be* holding it in place. It's even clearer than the video screen grab I posted previously.
The special nut is Rohloff part 8552 https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/rohloff-oem2-adapter-for-m5-fender-luggage-rack-bolt-8552/. I know it well having fitted a Rohloff hub onto a derailleur frame using the OEM axleplate and that nut for torque management http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14396.msg108175#msg108175.

If your nut has disappeared and you aren't getting any small rotation of the hub under different loading conditions (it should twist one way in gears below 11 and the other way in gears above 11) then this shows that friction can hold the hub in place under normal usage and Rohloff's design is for the worst case https://www.rohloff.de/en/service/handbook/speedhub/assembly/torque-anchoring.

Thank you. I ordered that part earlier today, as well as part 8560, which supposedly will do the same job. I figured I can install one and keep the other as back-up. As you indicated, all I can think is that when my wheel is installed (thru-axle), it's held tight enough that the axle plate won't move. But at least installing the correct nut/bolt will make 100% sure it's in the right position - which it wasn't before - and is a fail-safe to prevent it moving. Think I might have dodged a bullet there. I'd love to know how long I've been riding without the correct nut/bolt in place. I'm guessing it was there during my LEJOG ride, as I installed mudguards installed for that. Since I removed the mudguards (and possibly also the bolt), I've only ridden the Dirty Reiver and a couple of training rides.

PH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2396
Re: Rohloff now only gives 13 gears
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2023, 06:07:54 PM »
Glad it's sorted, your framebuilder was right that any bolt/screw/nut would hold it, but you might as well have the right thing.
all I can think is that when my wheel is installed (thru-axle), it's held tight enough that the axle plate won't move.
I think you're right, though I'm less sure the axle type makes any difference (Is it really a thru axle hub? Or a hub to fit thru axle frames?) my threaded hub probably clamps it as well as any.  How long that friction would have held it is anyone's guess, maybe for another mile, maybe for another thousand, it won't be a design feature, because it's dependent on how much contact there is with the dropout.  When it did go, it would have been interesting (Maybe not for you!) all the energy of a rotating wheel held by the cables.  That might have been fine, or it might have been a big bang! 
Anyway, sorted, that's the only important bit.

mickeg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2801
Re: Rohloff now only gives 13 gears
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2023, 08:36:01 PM »
It is my understanding that Rohloff is trying to make hubs that can fit in a through axle frame.  The shifting mechanism is within the axle of the hub, so it is not really through axle.  But, I could be wrong, maybe you have a new design for the hub?

I think a steep uphill and your hub would have started rotating in the frame.  But it would stop rotating when either the EX Box jammed into the chainstay or the gear cables prevented it from rotating further, I am not sure which way it would have rotated.  The torque is strong enough to have cracked frames that were not built for the stresses of disc brakes.

If you have any removable thread locker (Locktite is a common brand), you may consider removing the nut, adding a drop to the threads, and re-installing.  Removable is usually blue.  You do not want it to fall off.

I suggest thread locker on all rack bolts, shoe cleat bolts, fender bolts, brake bolts, and I might think of some other things later.  (Not water bottle cage bolts, seatpost bolt, stem bolts, on those I use grease.)  But a lot of bike shops do not even have a bottle of thread locker anywhere in the shop, so they are unlikely to tell you what I did.