Author Topic: Things to consider before buying  (Read 5299 times)

flocsy

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Things to consider before buying
« on: July 02, 2023, 10:44:44 am »
Hi,

I am planning to buy a second hand touring bike, possibly Thorn, but not 100% sure yet. I live in Israel, so 95% of my tours I will need to pack the bike to fly somewhere.

So I am thinking that maybe an S&S coupled bike will be a good idea. I'd like to hear from people who already flew with S&S bike (and probably also with a regular bike). How much does it ease the preparations?

Anyone who uses soft S&S bag? Is it something you can pack and attach to your panniers during a 2-3 weeks long tour? I guess that is out of question with a hard case, that would need to be stored somewhere (and even then would only be useful if I return back to the same town at the end of the trip)

Does it matter for the packing if the bike has derailleur or hub gears?

Or should I just buy a regular bike and search for a bike shop in the destination a day before I fly back and acquire an empty bike box?

BTW anyone heard any reasoning why Thorn stopped producing S&S coupled bikes? Does it mean they discovered that there's some problem with them?

WorldTourer

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Re: Things to consider before buying
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2023, 12:37:41 pm »
Thorn stopped producing the Nomad with S&S couplers because so few customers had requested one. There is nothing wrong with the technology itself – S&S couplers are very respected – and you can always pay a specialist framebuilder to install S&S couplers in a steel frame you already bought.

That said, S&S couplers might not be worth the bother even if you fly a lot. A lot of airlines these days offer low fees for bringing a bike. And the problem with S&S couplers was usually that people would have a dedicated suitcase for the bike, and then they would have to find somewhere to store it during their tour. If you fly with just a plain cardboard bike box, you can just throw the box away upon arrival, and get a new cardboard from a local bike shop before your next flight.

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Does it matter for the packing if the bike has derailleur or hub gears?

Bent derailleur hangers are the number-one woe when flying with a bike. You generally need to protect the derailleur hanger with its own cocoon of cardboard. Of course, you can avoid the bother entirely by using a hub gear.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2023, 12:39:43 pm by WorldTourer »

mickeg

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Re: Things to consider before buying
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2023, 01:04:24 pm »
I have never flown with a normal bike in a big bike box.  Have only flown with a bike in an S&S Backpack (soft) case.  Have flown with my Thorn Nomad Mk II and with a folding bike.

I live in USA, airlines have been rather hostile to bicycle travelers with high fees.  But, about four years ago, some but not all USA airlines dropped their oversize fees for bicycles.  Prior to that S&S couplers were more popular than now.  Fortunately, through savings on oversize fees and shipping costs, I managed to recover my costs for the couplers and the case before the fees were dropped.

I wrote up a lengthy post on unpacking my S&S bike a few years ago, that thread may answer a number of your questions, it is here:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13407.0

If I travel by airplane in the future, will I continue to use the S&S case instead of packing a bike in a bigger case?  Since there no longer are oversize fees for a bike on the airline I usually fly, I am not saving any money to do so.  But I probably will continue to use the S&S case because I can fit both of my checked bags in the trunk of a Prius, most taxi cabs in my community use a Prius.  Getting a big bike box to and from an airport is not convenient if it will not fit in a taxi.  The downside of the S&S couplers is that I have to completely disassemble the bike to pack it, and completely assemble it where I arrive.  That is an hour and a half to two hours at each end.  But, I built up teh bike from parts, thus I am comfortable doing that.  If you are not mechanically inclined, that could be a more daunting task.

Can you carry the S&S Backpack case on the bike for a couple weeks?  It would not be convenient.  My tours have started and finished at the same location.  The four side panels are approximately 30 inches (~75 to 80 cm) by 10 inches (~ 25cm), they are flexible but quite stiff and probably should be handled flat.  The rest of the bag is a lot of stiff fabric but it probably can be rolled up or folded to a much smaller package.  Maybe if you contacted the S&S company and aske them how big the package is if you buy a new S&S Backpack case, that package size will tell you how compact they make it for shipping.  I bought mine a decade ago, I do not recall packed size.

I always suggest that derailleurs be removed from a bike before shipping.  A steel frame with the derailleur hanger is usually robust and not a problem, but many if not most bikes now have a separate derailleur hanger that is less robust and easily bent out of alignment.  Replaceable hangers are also considered a sacrificial component that can break instead of damaging the frame.  On my titanium bike, I carry a spare derailleur hanger when on a bike tour.  Hangers are brand and model specific. 

I think a derailleur system might be a bit easier to pack in an S&S case, when I have packed my folding bike in that case I removed the cassette and packed that separately.  A Rohloff hub has a big wide shell and that makes the spoked part of the wheel thicker, more volume is consumed.  But as you can see in the photos to that other link, I have done it.

Wheel size, it is a lot easier to pack a 26 inch wheel in a S&S case than a 700c wheel.

Many of my friends will pay a bike shop to pack their bike at the end of a trip.  A lot of people go to a bike shop to get a bike box at the end of a trip and pack it themselves.  But you are betting that they will have a spare box that is big enough.  Several years ago I went to a local bike shop, they did not have any spare boxes.  They asked my bike size, said they would call me when they got a box for me.  A couple weeks later they called, I drove over there and got the box.  (I had a Land Rover, so I could carry a full size box at that time.)  And, about a week before my trip I started to pack up one of my full size bikes that did not have couplers, and the box was too small.  Made a few calls to other bike shops, and quickly gave up.  For that trip, instead I brought my folding bike in my S&S case, I did not plan to do that but that was the simplest solution.  I have heard of people using several boxes and taping them together to fit their bike.  That is another advantage of my S&S couplers, I know I can pack that bike into the case, procuring a box is one less thing to worry about.

International travel, you almost have to have the bike on the airplane with you, otherwise customs people expect that a shipped bike is an import, which may involve customs.  So, that makes packing a bike for air travel more critical.  I know several people that have done a lot of bike touring, but have never taken a bike tour outside of USA for that reason.

There is nothing wrong with S&S couplers, as I noted above they are less popular now that some of the big USA airlines have dropped their oversize fees for bikes.  In 2016 before they dropped the fees, I brought my bike to Iceland, flew Delta Airlines from USA, I saved $300 (USD) by not having an oversized case for the out and back flights.  And in 2016, that much money went a lot further than inflated dollars do now.  At that kind of price, you can recover your costs for S&S couplers and the case with very few flights.  But now, they no longer charge for oversize boxes if they contain a bike.

Surly used to sell some models with S&S couplers, but I believe that they no longer do so simply because it is less popular in USA now.

Outside of USA, if S&S couplers are less popular now than they used to be, I do not know the reason.  I think that aluminum frames can't be fitted with S&S couplers, thus some brands simply can't use them.  And I think that more and more companies are switching to aluminum and away from steel.  I can have them added to my titanium (derailleur) bike, but it would be quite expensive, so I am not doing that.  Instead I just won't fly with that bike.

If you are using panniers, I think S&S couplers are the best option for couplers.  I think that one of the tandem bike companies has created another coupler system but I am unaware of any major bike companies that use it.  Ritchey for several years has made a Break Away bike.  That is a coupled system, but I think the bike is less robust.  I have a Ritchey Break Away bike too (mine is badged as a Raleigh) but I would not recommend putting a heavy luggage load on a bike with the Break Away system.  I however met a couple in Iceland that were traveling using bikepacking gear, no racks, and they had Ritchey Break Away bikes.  But they were staying on pavement and were packed extremely light, where I was also traveling on 4X4 vehicle roads with my Thorn.

I hope I answered your questions, I spent much more time writing this than I planned.  A few more notes, below.

No matter how you travel, you probably will benefit from having a luggage scale along.  One overweight piece of luggage on one trip can pay for many luggage scales.

One more bit of trivia, if you are camping and flying, airline security occasionally want to see your camp stove.  The two times when security has wanted to see mine, they said if they could smell fuel, they would confiscate it.  I have not lost a stove, but making a liquid fuel stove and bottle odor free is complicated enough that now I only fly with butane types stoves.  More at: 
https://www.msrgear.com/blog/flying-with-a-camping-stove/

mickeg

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Re: Things to consider before buying
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2023, 01:34:47 pm »
One more thing on S&S couplers.  Every bike is a bit different, so how I packed my bike is likely not how you would pack yours.  There is a lot of trial and error in trying to figure out how to pack the bike into the case so that it actually fits.  After I did that the third time, I decided I needed better documentation.  So, when I unpacked the bike, I took photos as I removed the parts, thus I could see what went in the case in what order and how it was oriented.

And that is a series of photos that I can put on my phone, along with notes for the next time I need to do that.

Trying to build a bike with a tiny little multi tool is a pain in the rear, bringing a few shop sized tools can make the process go much easier.



flocsy

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Re: Things to consider before buying
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2023, 09:09:58 pm »
Thanks for the long reply!
To me it sounds like there is 1 big advantage if you have S&S coupling plus the bag: you don't have to waste time and nerves on finding a box for flying back home.
On the other hand maybe I should concentrate on the other (let's be realistic: way more important) parameters of the bike. Especially that I am looking for a used bike, which is harder to find (I mean one that really fits, especially having to do it online). And then try to be happy with whatever I found.

I'll ask another question: I am looking for a bike with flat bar (maybe butterfly, but certainly not drop bar), probably 26" wheels, but a bit flexible about that, and I guess that the question whether derailleur vs hub gears will be decided by the price. I've seen some rohloff bikes being sold below 800 GBP, but some sellers are asking for more than double that.
My tours will be in Europe (I like to watch world tour videos on YouTube, so the dream is there, but I'm not sure if I'll ever realize that dream, and if I'll do I'm pretty sure I'll know way more by then what bike I'll need for that, so "worst case" I'll buy another one and sell whatever I had) and I'd like to be able to get to not too hard core off-roads as well.

What I am not sure is how much it should bother me if I find a Thorn Sherpa or Nomad/Mercury or Club Tour and what are the real differences. If I understand correctly (but I'm here to learn!) then Nomad and Mercury are more or less the same with either derailleur or Rohloff hub. Am I mistaken? But I'm not sure what are the differences between Nomad and Sherpa because Sherpa is not included in the comparisons in the brochure.

WorldTourer

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Re: Things to consider before buying
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2023, 11:17:53 pm »
I am looking for a bike with flat bar (maybe butterfly, but certainly not drop bar), probably 26" wheels

26" wheels are quickly becoming obsolete, because the industry has moved on to the sizes 27.5"/650B and 700c. Companies like Schwalbe have already stopped offering some of their quality tires in 26", and there are parts of the world where you won't find a decent 26" replacement unless you special-order it and wait for it to arrive by post. Thorn recommended 26" wheels for a long time, but the world has really changed in the last decade, and their advice is no longer reliable.

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But I'm not sure what are the differences between Nomad and Sherpa because Sherpa is not included in the comparisons in the brochure.

The Nomad is a go-anywhere expedition touring bike with very large tire clearance, capable of cycling Alaska–Ushuaia or across Africa along offroad routes. If you plan to only cycle in Europe, the Nomad is perhaps more expensive and heavier than you need. The Nomad frame will, however, fit 650B tires and supports disc brakes, so it will serve a rider for many years into the future.

The Sherpa is a lighter derailleur-equipped (no Rohloff) bicycle that only supports 26" wheels and rim brakes. Both technologies are increasingly seen as obsolete, and quality replacement rim-brake pads and rims are special-order-only in more and more countries. The Sherpa also won't fit tires wider than 1.75" with fenders, and these days a wider tire is more fashionable for touring that will involve some chunky gravel. My ex-wife has a Sherpa (I have a Nomad) and even though she does mainly only commuting these days, she frequently complaints that her bike feels antiquated in this modern world.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2023, 11:19:48 pm by WorldTourer »

mickeg

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Re: Things to consider before buying
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2023, 02:42:45 am »
My Nomad is the Mk II, which was available with S&S couplers as an option.  That version of the Nomad in my size was rated for a capacity of 60 kg of luggage weight not counting the weight of the rider.  That is a massive amount.  In the first photo, I have over two weeks of food on my Nomad and I do not think I had the 60 kg limit.

Before I built up the Nomad Mk II, I bought a used Sherpa frame and fork, built that up in 2010.  That bike was rated for 30 or 35 kg of luggage capacity not counting the weight of the rider.  I think I may have exceeded that a few times.  That is not S&S and is derailleur.  Very good bike, solid and can carry a load well.  Second photo.

In other words, the Nomad Mk II is capable of carrying roughly twice the luggage load that the Sherpa was.  Both are 26 inch.

For touring continental Europe, a Sherpa would certainly work, as you would not be in far off remote places where the capacity to carry a lot of food is needed.  But finding a used Sherpa with S&S couplers is very unlikely.  I saw a used one on Ebay with couplers about four years ago, I remember that because it was close to my size and I suspected I could get it for a very low price.  I chose not to bid, but it sold for very cheap.

If I was going to fly to continental Europe or the UK, I would probably take my S&S bike, but realistically my Sherpa would be a better bike for that trip because it is lighter.

I have a third touring bike to, I consider it my light touring bike, it has a titanium frame and has 700c wheels.  Third photo.  This would really be the best bike I have for a Europe trip where I am almost always on pavement, but it lacks the S&S couplings, so I would probably not take this one. 

One other option would be to find a good quality folding bike that can handle the touring load.  I do not have a recommendation for brand or model, I have no clue what is available in your part of the world.  There are folders that can easily go into an airline size case that take 20 inch wheels that would be more than adequate to tour on.

« Last Edit: July 03, 2023, 02:46:13 am by mickeg »

PH

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Re: Things to consider before buying
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2023, 09:39:02 am »
BTW anyone heard any reasoning why Thorn stopped producing S&S coupled bikes? Does it mean they discovered that there's some problem with them?

Thorn stopped producing the Nomad with S&S couplers because so few customers had requested one. There is nothing wrong with the technology itself – S&S couplers are very respected – and you can always pay a specialist framebuilder to install S&S couplers in a steel frame you already bought.

S&S couplers are only available for specific tube sizes, so WorldTourer is correct that there wasn't the demand, but what demand there was dictated the design of all Nomad frames.  Also correct that they can be retrofitted, but not to all frames, you can't for example have them fitted to a Nomad Mk3.

PH

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Re: Things to consider before buying
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2023, 10:05:06 am »
What I am not sure is how much it should bother me if I find a Thorn Sherpa or Nomad/Mercury or Club Tour and what are the real differences. If I understand correctly (but I'm here to learn!) then Nomad and Mercury are more or less the same with either derailleur or Rohloff hub. Am I mistaken? But I'm not sure what are the differences between Nomad and Sherpa because Sherpa is not included in the comparisons in the brochure.
We have to take some care when discussing Nomads, they've changed considerably over the models and not all comments will apply to all.  The current version is possibly a bit less expedition grade than it's predecessor, I think it's almost come full circle, the original derailleur model was the same, so over the years it seems to have become more heavy duty and then back again, that it replaces the Raven and Sherpa as well as the previous Nomad seems to confirm this.
What we're talking about though are subtle differences, if you take any one of Thorn's 26" wheel tourers, it'll be capable of what another would be, just a bit better or worse in some scenarios than other.  It didn't surprise me that Thorn rationalised their range.
There's more difference between these and the Mercury and Club Tour,  both of those are primarily intended as on road tourers, the Mercury further towards the Audax/Sports end of the touring spectrum.
If you have all of those bikes on your shortlist, by virtue of them all being Thorns, then I'd politely suggest some more research to narrow down what you want from a bike.  If for example you decided a Club Tour was the bike for you, then a similar bike from a different manufacturer would be a better option than a different model Thorn.
Do you have a bike now?  What is it and how does it get used?  There are some great touring bikes around, there's also plenty of people having great tours on much lesser bikes.  The requirements for a good touring bike are that it's reliable and comfortable, there's an almost endless list of stuff we could add to that, just don't fall into the trap of thinking it's essential.
Good luck

JohnR

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Re: Things to consider before buying
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2023, 11:56:13 am »
Page 23 of the Thorn bible http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/thorn_mega_brochure.pdf has a comparison matrix and suggested loading. A bike that's built for a heavy load is likely to give a harsher ride when lighly loaded although one factor that isn't mentioned in that summary is the weight of the rider. The individual brochures, however, do mention this aspect by quoting a rider + luggage weight so a 70kg rider could potentially put up to 50kg on a Mercury as the combined limit is 120kg (110kg if using an 853 fork).

mickeg

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Re: Things to consider before buying
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2023, 01:48:35 pm »
...
S&S couplers ..., you can't for example have them fitted to a Nomad Mk3.

I as unaware of this.  WhY?

WorldTourer

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Re: Things to consider before buying
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2023, 02:23:46 pm »
The current version is possibly a bit less expedition grade than it's predecessor.

I am curious why you think this. The Nomad Mk3 steel frame itself (which is all I bought, since my bike is my own custom build) is as strong and reliable as anything, so I assume you feel the difference between the Mk2 and the Mk3 lies in the parts that Thorn selects?

I will say that I was surprised – when I asked Thorn to detail a Nomad Mk3 build for a friend considering a purchase – that Thorn intended to install Schwalbe Almotion tires. Those are 2.15" and a nice ride on both asphalt and gravel, but they are comparatively flimsy compared to e.g. the Mondial, a real “expedition-grade” tire.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2023, 02:26:44 pm by WorldTourer »

PH

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Re: Things to consider before buying
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2023, 05:49:47 pm »
...
S&S couplers ..., you can't for example have them fitted to a Nomad Mk3.

I as unaware of this.  WhY?
If* I've understood it correctly, not offering the S&S option meant not having to use tubing in the diameters required.

* The if is there to cover myself if I've misunderstood  ;)

martinf

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Re: Things to consider before buying
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2023, 06:09:06 pm »
One other option would be to find a good quality folding bike that can handle the touring load.  I do not have a recommendation for brand or model, I have no clue what is available in your part of the world.  There are folders that can easily go into an airline size case that take 20 inch wheels that would be more than adequate to tour on.

I don't do air travel, but I do use a folding bike when I need to use other transport (trains, coaches, buses, cars, ferries).

When it is just a matter of one rail trip out and another back without train changes I sometimes use my full size tourer (Raven Tour, 26" wheels, Rohloff).

Otherwise I prefer using a modified Brompton 16" folder with a Rohloff hub gear and a Rohloff-specific rear triangle with integrated tubular steel rear rack (made by Kinetics).  This will take about 80 litres of luggage if really necessary, but if possible I try and take much less, for example doing without cooking equipment if camping.

The riding performance is of course not so good as the fat-tyre Raven Tour, the small wheels and thin tyres aren't really suitable off decent tarmac surfaces and I reckon on a 5-10% penalty on average speed/mileage. The Rohloff and front luggage (keeps the front wheel down) means that on mountain roads I can climb anything that I can do with the Raven Tour, I just have to be more careful on long descents as the small wheel rims heat up more.

But handling the bike is much easier in transport. I have a nylon bag that folds up small enough to carry on the bike, this hides the fact that it is a bike and has let me take it in transport or other places where bikes are not normally allowed (urban buses, some ferries, some high speed trains).

A recent example was a hire car/walking holiday in Normandy last month with my wife. I took a Brompton, which fitted easily in the boot of the (small) car and used it for a 40 km half-day while my wife went shopping in the nearest town.

Something with 20" wheels (maybe one of the Bike Friday range or an Airnimal ?) would probably be better than the Brompton for touring, but not quite so easy to handle during transport.

At one time I had a 20" wheel Moulton APB. This was an excellent load platform and with the slightly wider tyres and full suspension it worked better than the Brompton on bad road surfaces.
But it required dismantling into several pieces (front frame and forks, rear frame, seat post handlebars and rear rack) so was rather unwieldly and not well protected in the nylon bags I used for transport. It would probably be more compact than a full size bike if using a hard case, but this is only an option if leaving the case and returning to the same place. 

When I bought my Raven Tour in 2011 I did consider a Nomad with S&S couplings (this was available at the time). But when I visited SJS Cycles to finalise my choice I was advised that I could dismantle a regular frame (remove fork, remove bars, remove wheels ...) and get a slightly larger package than an S&S frame that would be acceptable in most cases (but would not meet airline size limits). So far I have never needed to do this.

PH

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Re: Things to consider before buying
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2023, 06:36:05 pm »
The current version is possibly a bit less expedition grade than it's predecessor.

I am curious why you think this.
OK, these are my impressions, I don't have the numbers or experience to back it up, so if someone disagrees it won't upset me  ;)

In 2003 or 4, not long after I'd bought my Raven Tour, I swapped for the day with someone who'd bought a derailleur Nomad a year or so before Thorn started offering Rohloffs.  Apart from the gearing, we both concluded there wasn't a lot of difference.
The Nomad then reappeared as a Rohloff bike, promoted as a more robust option than the Raven Tour (Though by this time the Tour and Sport Ravens might have merged into the plain Raven, which was somewhere between the two).  The UK built to order expedition bikes, EXP's, seemed to be dropped at around the same time. The Nomad MKII was marketed in the same sort of way, as the expedition model, other than being suspension corrected.
I haven't ridden either the first Rohloff Nomad, or the MKII. 
My impression of the MKIII Nomad is that it rides fairly similar to my original Raven Tour, though there's 14 years between my last ride on that and the first on my Nomad, so not exactly a back to back comparison.  The frame weights are only a few grams different, though the disc fork is a good bit heavier. 
The MKIII is a full on tourer, but not IMO excessively heavy, as it says in the Thorn literature it could be built up with 700c wheels in a configuration to take 25kg luggage on the rear and it would be the same weight as building up a Mercury to take the same luggage, which on that would have to be F&R. 

It isn't always easy to decipher Thorn literature, it'll tell you all bikes are all things to all riders, and we know that can't be true. But I ask, if the Nomad is a full expedition bike and the Mercury is a Sports Tourer, what's filling the middle ground?  The largest segment of the market.
We might also consider that the World of expedition touring has moved on, for a start many of the participants no longer call it touring.  And whatever they do call it, they're far more likely to be on bikes such as the Surly Ogre than anything in the Thorn range. 
So that's it.  My impression is the Nomad could easily be put into service for an expedition, as could the Raven Tour, but that it's primarily aimed at that middle ground. 
My Nomad is my daily ride, in the build I have it, it's around 2kg heavier than the Mercury, it's most challenging expedition is the trip to the farm shop, whether the above impressions are right or wrong, it doesn't feel overbuilt or overweight for the use it gets.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2023, 06:38:50 pm by PH »