Leak/service questions

[mickeg]

UPDATE:

Yesterday I rode 97 miles on my Nomad Mk II.  And previous to that I rode 40 miles after the oil change, for a total of 137 miles or 220 km.

I mentioned a few posts above on May 10 that when I changed the oil that I put grease in behind the axle plate surrounding the shifter gear in an attempt to create a seal.  I expected it to be temporary, but tried it anyway.

This morning, no oil drips on the EX box or the floor below it.  But I took the skewer out and the skewer is coated with oil.  I therefore assume that the oil dissolved some of the grease and created a pathway to escape the hub.

Thus, I expect the leakage to be more evident in the near future.  I do not plan to try to seal it with grease in the future, likely not worth the time to me.

I used to say that as long as my 1960s and 1970s Triumph motorcycles were leaking oil, I knew that everything was working right.  That applies to my Rohloff too.

[John Saxby]

I used to say that as long as my 1960s and 1970s Triumph motorcycles were leaking oil, I knew that everything was working right.  That applies to my Rohloff too.

So there we are -- it doesn't really matter if it's a bug or a feature, eh?  Thanks, George, one less thing to worry about. 

[tronstein]

UPDATE:

Yesterday I rode 97 miles on my Nomad Mk II.  And previous to that I rode 40 miles after the oil change, for a total of 137 miles or 220 km.

I mentioned a few posts above on May 10 that when I changed the oil that I put grease in behind the axle plate surrounding the shifter gear in an attempt to create a seal.  I expected it to be temporary, but tried it anyway.

This morning, no oil drips on the EX box or the floor below it.  But I took the skewer out and the skewer is coated with oil.  I therefore assume that the oil dissolved some of the grease and created a pathway to escape the hub.

Thus, I expect the leakage to be more evident in the near future.  I do not plan to try to seal it with grease in the future, likely not worth the time to me.

I used to say that as long as my 1960s and 1970s Triumph motorcycles were leaking oil, I knew that everything was working right.  That applies to my Rohloff too.

Thanks for the update.  I also have renewed anxiety about my hub because I had a customer come into the shop with the same bike as mine.  Their hub was bone dry and the shifting also felt better than mine.

[mickeg]

...
Thanks for the update.  I also have renewed anxiety about my hub because I had a customer come into the shop with the same bike as mine.  Their hub was bone dry and the shifting also felt better than mine.

Some on this forum have commented that their rear skewers do not show any oil like mine does.  So, there clearly are differences.  But, when Thorn and Rohloff say that leakage is common and you do not need to worry about it, I am not going to worry about it.

I made the comment above about my vintage Triumph motorcycles, but those had two oil pumps, one pumped oil out of the crankcase and put it into the oil tank, the other pumped oil from the oil tank to maintain oil pressure to the bearings within the engine.  In that case, if it stopped leaking, that meant no oil pressure, and that was a problem.

The Rohloff just has some oil in the bottom of a hub, so that rotating hubs will continue to wash the internal parts with oil, if you are low on oil it should not be a great problem.  And if it leaks at a slower rate later, that should not be a problem either.

Feel on shifting, I am sure there are changes in the hub over time and the type of shifting mechanism used.  I have only ridden my Rohloff, have never ridden another one.  So, I can't compare.  I am in USA and Rohloff hubs are very rare in USA.  A neighbor is a bike mechanic and he has told me that my Rohloff is the only one he has ever seen even though he is in a bike shop all day, five days a week.

[tronstein]

Feel on shifting, I am sure there are changes in the hub over time and the type of shifting mechanism used.  I have only ridden my Rohloff, have never ridden another one.  So, I can't compare.  I am in USA and Rohloff hubs are very rare in USA.  A neighbor is a bike mechanic and he has told me that my Rohloff is the only one he has ever seen even though he is in a bike shop all day, five days a week.

Yeah, I'm in the US too, and I hadn't given this much thought until I had a customer bring his in.  Then I suddenly realized that I think I've only seen/felt one other Rohloff besides my own in my time as a bike mechanic.  I wish I could gain more experience with them, but they're just not common.  We need to get more people on Rohloffs!

[geocycle]

Mine is leaking quite a lot since the last oil change. Seems to be from both sides. Next time I need a new rim I will ask SJS to look at the seals.  It might not be long as another issue is braking with the back wheel.  The CSS coating has worn away so I have shifted to standard blocks but I get a weird slip-grip-slip sensation when slowing right down. I’ve cleaned the rims, checked the spokes and v brakes but am thinking it has something to do with the polished rim surface.  Any thoughts on a soft pad compound would be well received as it seems a shame to bin a still true rim.

[PH]

The CSS coating has worn away so I have shifted to standard blocks but I get a weird slip-grip-slip sensation when slowing right down. I’ve cleaned the rims, checked the spokes and v brakes but am thinking it has something to do with the polished rim surface.  Any thoughts on a soft pad compound would be well received as it seems a shame to bin a still true rim.

May I refer you the the answer I gave earlier:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14840.msg111810#msg111810

I haven't experienced this slip-grip behaviour, though it rings a bell about something, but I can't recall what... maybe it'll come back to me, or maybe it'll now bug me enough I'll have to research!

[geocycle]

Thanks PH, I’d also recalled that someone had made a suggestion regarding blocks post CSS but forgotten where! Will investigate options. I did wonder if the oil from the hub was contributing to the slip-grip-slip phenomenon but a really good scrub made little difference.

[Danneaux]

I’d also recalled that someone had made a suggestion regarding blocks post CSS but forgotten where!

Hi Geo!

The topics as discussed at these links may not be exactly what you recall, but maybe close?...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14498.0
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13128.0
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=6373.0
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=12774.msg95207#msg95207
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14117.0

Hopefully helpful.

Best, Dan.

[mickeg]

Mine is leaking quite a lot since the last oil change. Seems to be from both sides. ...

I do not recall reading of leakage from the drive side before.  I think that is uncommon and maybe a seal there would be in order?

Yesterday morning, I had one drop of oil on the floor under my EX box, so the leakage on mine has come back, although much slower after my smearing Phil grease under the axle torque plate.

[geocycle]

Thanks all, will take a look at those links.  I think what has happened is that the css has worn differentially . It looks superficially smooth and shiny all around but there may well be still some areas with more grip than others. Structurally the rim is absolutely fine with no concavity or flaring.

Quick update in case it’s useful for others.  I swapped koolstop orange pads for some slightly used no name black ones in an integrated holder, rather than the cartridge type. I just happened to find them in my parts box.  I also added an extra washer between block and brake arm and slackened the cable allowing the arms to flare outward slightly. All worked perfectly on todays ride!  So, either the compound worked better with the worn CSS surface or the v brake wasn’t adjusted correctly and  the wheel was slowing normally under light braking then escaping when coming to a halt. I think probably the latter. Will report back in a few weeks.

[Tiberius]

My rear brake is pretty good for a short period after I replace or clean/resurface my pads and rotor and then it becomes quite inadequate as it gets contaminated.  How do others cope with this?

This is EXACTLY the same problem that I have with my hub and disc brake.

 It wasn't immediately obvious why my rear brake was so poor, I hadn't noticed any oil on the rotor or the floor etc, but then I did notice that the underneath of the cable box was wet with oil and the penny dropped. I haven't found any way of actually stopping the leak, but I always park the bike leaning over to the drive side.

I decided to do this year's oil change as/the method refered to by PH above, thinking less oil in means less oil to leak out. I did this a couple of days ago and it's just too early to say if it has made much of a difference. I will pop back in a month with an update.

EDIT - I've just had a quick check over the bike. 60Km after completing the oil change the cable box is wet inside and underneath. let's see how it goes over the next month.

Just reporting back.

It is just over a month since I completed an oil change as/the method recommended by Andy Blanc in 'Living with a Rohloff' After completing the process there should be 14ml of oil left in the hub.

Well this 14ml is leaking nicely past the oil seals (simmerings) making it's way down the EX transfer box and onto the disc rotor. There doesn't appear to be any difference in the amount of leakage between this oil change method and the method that I was using previously - the Thorn/YouTube method. This is a situation that CANNOT be ignored if you run disc brakes.

I can actually live with the thought that these seals may need replacing now and again, seals unseal and need replacing in many applications, but what irks me is that Rohloff will no longer sell the seals, or the tools to replace the seals, to anyone other than Rohloff main dealers. (I am aware of the guy on ebay selling his version of the Rohloff seal changing tools and seals)

Call it what you will, leaking, misting, sweating etc, oil finding it's way out of Rohloff hubs is well documented, even Rohloff themselves refer to it. It would seem to me (rightly or wrongly) that Rohloff didn't think about this when they added the disc brake option. The leakage from my hub would be nothing to worry about if I ran rim brakes, but the fact that I run discs makes the leakage plain dangerous.

[mickeg]

In my case, I think the bad seal is deep inside the Rohloff, much deeper than I would ever want to do any disassembly on my own.  I do my own bike work.  Example, I built up my own wheels (including my Rohloff wheel), etc.  I later added the flange reinforcing rings to my wheel as a precaution.  Etc.

In some of the exploded diagrams, there is a seal that is number 45 on the diagram, between the diagram number 43 (Hub Axle CC) and diagram number 46 (Shifting Shaft).  If I could buy that part, I would not bother to try to fix it as that would be a lot of disassembly to get to, there are some projects that I think the risk reward ratio is not in my favor if I decide to attempt doing my own repair.

That said, I have rim brakes, leakage to me is only a slight nuisance, as it does not contaminate my brake pads.