Author Topic: Leak/service questions  (Read 14512 times)

Andre Jute

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Re: Leak/service questions
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2023, 12:54:44 AM »
I'm the other poster PH refers to.

If you have the EXT black cable box and you undo the big stainless knurled screw, and pull the box off the pins guiding the fit, you hold in your hand a black box closed on all sides, and with your right forefinger you can point at a newly exposed brass nut on the bike which is driven by a female socket on the other part in your left hand to change gears. If you have an 8mm socket or open spanner in your touring tools, in case of cable breakage, by rotating the brass nut with the spanner you can change the gears to some compromise that will at least get you to the next habitation.

The shaft behind the brass nut is clearly connected to the gubbins of the gearbox, and it seems to me logical that oil might try to get out that way. It hasn't ever on my bike that I can remember. I pack this space with Phil's, a tube of which was given to me by the erstwhile Forum member Jags a few years ago with assistance from Dan to orchestrate the American end of the long chain from California to the wilds of West Cork. I'll return to this in a moment.

About the piece you're holding in your left hand, still attached to the bike by the cables: on it is the female part of the gear changing mechanism, looking like the female end of a socket spanner. Behind that, inside the box, out of sight, is the cable drum and the mechanism to turn the pull-pull action of the cables through a right angle to drive the socket and hence the gear change. I took one look at the schematics, considered for the space of a cup of coffee that I'm a notorious fumblefingers, and decided not to open mine except a sliver to peek inside for signs of corrosion. My bike lives an easy life almost 100% on tarmac, is never ridden through water over hub height (if I need to jump off the bike into the ditch/stream in the harvest season to clear a narrow lane for a big agricultural machine, I hold the bike above my head) and I wasn't surprised to see no evidence of water ingress. I'm not planning on opening that box -- for clarity, the half  where the gear change cables enter it -- until I replace the cables, which have lasted an enormously long time when one considers that they live under abnormal tension because I have the handlebars so high. I should perhaps add that most of you are nearer to SJS by a factor of ten or so than I am to Rohloff itself in Germany, so that is another factor I consider in not taking apart a component I may not get together again. (Yes, I'm aware that SJS sells rewound cables for touring spares and will probably make up a complete black box for me with cables of the right length attached, which for me would be a justified expense, probably a bargain for avoided frustration and lost rides with consequent health effects.)

Dan has also made the point on a previous occasion that one should take the part attached to the cables apart and grease the threads of the screws to avoid the whole thing being locked by corrosion between dissimilar metals.

As I say, I pack the bikeside hollow with the brass nut in it with very high quality grease, enough to squeeze out enough on reassembly to cover the mating area of the two black halves of the EXT box, by the test of grease squeezing out around the circumference of the box. Oil not only hasn't leaked from there, it is very unlikely that it ever will. There's a breathing hole in the centre of the axle, and if that is a source of oil that leaks out, presumably it would leak to both side, but the grease stops any leak to the non-drive side. Of course this is pure speculation, but that space, with the two pieces of brass working against each other every time you change gear, is so easy to service, it takes more time to lay out the tools (one large flat screwdriver for the knurled nut, optional, one tube of grease...) than to clean out the old grease thoroughly and squirt in new grease.

There's another point. Whatever the recommended service to the EXT box is, one half or both, a lot of Rohloff owners don't even know they're supposed to service it, and we've never heard any huge surge of complaints about failures. It seems to me that Rohloff, which generally suffers from a case of cover-my-arse on the extreme end of the scale even for German engineers, have outdone themselves by the instruction to service the EXT (whichever parts of it they intend) every 500 miles or kilometres or whatever. I did at first, until I started to think about it, and then tested alternatives, and now I do it every 3000m/5000km or one year when the gearbox oil is changed. And still I've never seen the slightest evidence that changing the grease was at all necessary, zero ingress of water, zero egress of oil. Those of you who do much higher mileages than me, or whose bike is used in extreme conditions may have different experience and hence service schedules, but for most utility bikes and bikes used for short tours in civilisation, that service instruction in its over-the-topness exceeds even the possible damage by the confusion of parts of the EXT box in the service instructions.

Of course, if you use your Rohloff as a mud bike and spray it down with a pressure hose once a week, you should follow the service instructions closely. Also, if you're a newbie, follow the Rohloff book closely until you have the experience and the confidence to take responsibility for deviating. Notice how carefully Andy Blance reasoned out his deviations from the Rohloff manual.

A Rohloff HGB lasts a very long time -- nobody knows how long! -- and experience has taught that even the worst never-minds rarely find a way to damage it, so you are never in any hurry to make decisions about your bike's gearbox.


PH

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Re: Leak/service questions
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2023, 08:30:19 AM »
Thanks Dan and Andre for your explanations.  I'm in full agreement with Andre that new owners should follow the manual and then later decide for themselves if and how to vary it.  Quite a bit of my maintenance routine is on a no disadvantage basis, as in I think it might do some good and it can't do any harm.  I remain skeptical that anything you do to the cable box can keep the oil in the hub, but if you think it helps, it can't do any harm. 
I can see from the photos at the start of the thread, that the oil exiting the hub is running down the outside of the transfer box, this is my own experience, I'm therefore of the opinion that any leak prevention needs to be before that point. 
For anyone interested, there's a youtube vid of a transfer box being stripped:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUwv-NtspVE

another factor I consider in not taking apart a component I may not get together again. (Yes, I'm aware that SJS sells rewound cables for touring spares and will probably make up a complete black box for me with cables of the right length attached, which for me would be a justified expense, probably a bargain for avoided frustration and lost rides with consequent health effects.)
Are you on the original cables Andre?
The part SJS sell is for the internal mech.  The cables for the external (Unless split for couplings) are two continues runs, inserted into the shifter and terminating at the pulley, there is no option to swap-out a pulley or cable box.  I wouldn't want to do it roadside, but it isn't a complicated workshop job, certainly a lot less fiddly than with an internal mech.

Andre Jute

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Re: Leak/service questions
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2023, 09:53:12 AM »
another factor I consider in not taking apart a component I may not get together again. (Yes, I'm aware that SJS sells rewound cables for touring spares and will probably make up a complete black box for me with cables of the right length attached, which for me would be a justified expense, probably a bargain for avoided frustration and lost rides with consequent health effects.)
Are you on the original cables Andre?
The part SJS sell is for the internal mech.  The cables for the external (Unless split for couplings) are two continues runs, inserted into the shifter and terminating at the pulley, there is no option to swap-out a pulley or cable box.  I wouldn't want to do it roadside, but it isn't a complicated workshop job, certainly a lot less fiddly than with an internal mech.

I started out on my Rohloff adventure with the EXT box. Mine has about 11,000km on it, which is probably not a huge distance but it has had extraordinary tension on the cables even at rest because when I fitted the n'lock stem conversion, I took the opportunity to raise the handlebars as far as the cables installed would let me, and that was about 8k ago...

I meant about SJS that they'll probably make me up a black box (the outer part of the EXT box) with cables to a supplied measure already attached, not that that is what they actually offer.

Taking the gear cables off my bike isn't a complicated job in itself: they're held on by custom machined retainers brazed to the downtube and, from memory, there are only three of them each with one screw to hold on the cover. But there's quite a bit of electrical motor power supply and control wiring that I don't want to disturb because it took me days to fit it modestly tidily.

Thanks for the video link. Something interesting to watch on my treadmill tonight. Maybe the job is so simple that I can do it myself...

Part of the Hippocratic Oath is, or if it isn't, it should be "first, do no harm"!

PH

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Re: Leak/service questions
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2023, 05:25:25 PM »
I meant about SJS that they'll probably make me up a black box (the outer part of the EXT box) with cables to a supplied measure already attached, not that that is what they actually offer.
Not wishing to condemn you to more treadmill time, here's Rohloff's cable fitting guide, which shows why that isn't an option (Unless the cable has splitters):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_ha9__3VLg&t=20s

Save you watching it unless you want to - The explanation is the cables thread through the shifter before they attach to the pulley in the cable box, that's two cables fitted in the shifter and terminating at the pulley.  There isn't a way, on a standard set-up, to fit cables to the shifter if they're already fitted to the cable box.

Andre Jute

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Re: Leak/service questions
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2023, 10:37:38 PM »
Thanks for that clarification and the additional video, Paul.

That's the thing about the Rohloff: there is so much information published, you can never be certain you're on top of it all. I actually knew about threading the cables through the rotary control but it just slipped my mind, still half on the original thread subject of leaks, ever fascinating. I've moved the additional video to the top of my treadmill list anyway.

JohnR

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Re: Leak/service questions
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2023, 10:27:43 AM »
Last year I had oil leakage after my spring oil change when I had put Rohloff's recommended 25ml of oil into the hub so I then drained about 5ml of oil which stopped the leakage. I suspect that if the total oil in the hub (new oil and that which refused to drain out) exceeds 25ml then the oil level when the bike is standing is up to the level of the axle. At the autumn oil change I added only 15ml of new oil.

If you remove the five Torx screws which secure the axle plate (which I needed to do for modification to fit the Spa Elan frame) then the transfer box will also detach from the hub to reveal an oil/grease soup where the cog at the end of the transfer box engages with the cog on the axle. There's also a paper seal in there. I would presume that Rohloff are recommending that this area should be well packed with grease whenever there's any maintenance done but it's not a part of the hub that most users will ever need to visit. (I would note that ensuring that the cogs are re-engaged to get the right shifting behaviour can be fiddly to it's best to not open up this area unless necessary).

Danneaux

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Re: Leak/service questions
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2023, 05:38:46 PM »
Quote
If you remove the five Torx screws which secure the axle plate...then the transfer box will also detach from the hub to reveal an oil/grease soup where the cog at the end of the transfer box engages with the cog on the axle. There's also a paper seal in there. I would presume that Rohloff are recommending that this area should be well packed with grease whenever there's any maintenance done but it's not a part of the hub that most users will ever need to visit.
Boy! This explains a lot! :) Thanks, JohnR.

Best, Dan.

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Leak/service questions
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2023, 06:19:33 PM »
I'm feeling a bit left out of this conversation, not having a EXT box on my Rohloff.

Should I be expecting any comparable problems with my ' ordinary ' set up?
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PH

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Re: Leak/service questions
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2023, 11:05:49 PM »
I would presume that Rohloff are recommending that this area should be well packed with grease whenever there's any maintenance done
No need to presume it, it's in the vid I linked earlier.
EDIT - Opps, I mentioned the vid but didn't link  :-[
Here it is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGNFZjavXcI
« Last Edit: February 07, 2023, 06:26:44 PM by PH »

PH

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Re: Leak/service questions
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2023, 11:12:10 PM »
Should I be expecting any comparable problems with my ' ordinary ' set up?
The likelihood is identical, it's the same seal.
It does require some perspective.  Although a hot topic, it's rarely an issue, all the hubs can leak a bit, it's the nature of the seals.  If they leak a bit more than that, there's often ways to mitigate it, if it leaks a lot more than that, it's now a workshop job.  That happens of course, but not so often anyone would be expecting it.

mickeg

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Re: Leak/service questions
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2023, 04:07:55 PM »
...
If you remove the five Torx screws which secure the axle plate (which I needed to do for modification to fit the Spa Elan frame) then the transfer box will also detach from the hub to reveal an oil/grease soup where the cog at the end of the transfer box engages with the cog on the axle. There's also a paper seal in there. I would presume that Rohloff are recommending that this area should be well packed with grease whenever there's any maintenance done but it's not a part of the hub that most users will ever need to visit. (I would note that ensuring that the cogs are re-engaged to get the right shifting behaviour can be fiddly to it's best to not open up this area unless necessary).

I bought my Rohloff hub separately from the Nomad Mk II frame.  And I had to change the position of that axle plate.  Thus, I opened that area up.  In my case, it is my recollection that it was not filled with anything, the hub was brand new and no oil had yet been put in it.

I wonder if I should just open that up again, clean it out and fill it up any void space with Phil grease?

When I remove my rear skewer, it is coated with oil, but when I have mentioned that before, some say that their skewer comes out clean.  Thus, I suspect that something in mine is oriented differently than for others.  And I would not be surprised if mine leaks more than some others because it can leak onto the skewer.

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Leak/service questions
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2023, 05:04:30 PM »
Should I be expecting any comparable problems with my ' ordinary ' set up?
The likelihood is identical, it's the same seal.
It does require some perspective.  Although a hot topic, it's rarely an issue, all the hubs can leak a bit, it's the nature of the seals.  If they leak a bit more than that, there's often ways to mitigate it, if it leaks a lot more than that, it's now a workshop job.  That happens of course, but not so often anyone would be expecting it.

Ah yes. But I don't have the axel plate to pack with grease every once in awhile.
Or 5 Torx screws.....

Is there an old thread re the pros and cons of one or t'other set ups?

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PH

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Re: Leak/service questions
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2023, 06:42:25 PM »
Should I be expecting any comparable problems with my ' ordinary ' set up?
The likelihood is identical, it's the same seal.
It does require some perspective.  Although a hot topic, it's rarely an issue, all the hubs can leak a bit, it's the nature of the seals.  If they leak a bit more than that, there's often ways to mitigate it, if it leaks a lot more than that, it's now a workshop job.  That happens of course, but not so often anyone would be expecting it.

Ah yes. But I don't have the axel plate to pack with grease every once in awhile.
Or 5 Torx screws.....

Is there an old thread re the pros and cons of one or t'other set ups?
I'm pretty sure you do have 5 torx screws holding your axle plate on, it's the same axle plate on either.  Behind that on an internal is the axle ring, this is in exactly the same place as the cog that engages with the transfer box on an external. 
Have a look at this vid (Which I'd meant to post earlier) for an idea of the difference.  Oil leaking through the seal is coming out the same way on either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGNFZjavXcI

Where you looking for an appraisal of the general differences?  The one on my Mercury is a conversion, IMO the differences are minor. 
The internal shift is IMO a little more crisp, but I soon got used to the external.
Detaching the cable box is less fiddley than the splitter connectors
The cable is easier to replace on an external and is a standard cable.
The continuous cable run from shifter to hub is better sealed (Not that I ever had a problem with the internal)
You can't run disc brakes with an internal (At least not a standard set up, the rotor and cable would occupy the same space)
With an external mech you could straight swap one wheel for another (OK, not one that applies to many)

I think that's it, I wouldn't say one was better than the other, unless your choice is limited by the brake.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2023, 06:47:29 PM by PH »

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Leak/service questions
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2023, 09:34:55 PM »
Thanks PH
A great video.

FYI after playing it, YouTube took me to a video by Simon Chetwynd who had stripped down his hub after an 11,000 mile failure. Perhaps of interest to you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4OmG8T7Uec

Best

Matt
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Tiberius

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Re: Leak/service questions
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2023, 09:39:43 AM »
I bought my Rohloff hub separately from the Nomad Mk II frame.  And I had to change the position of that axle plate.  Thus, I opened that area up.  In my case, it is my recollection that it was not filled with anything, the hub was brand new and no oil had yet been put in it.

Yes, that was exactly my experience too.