Author Topic: Alloys of copper in Rohloff  (Read 3241 times)

crg

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Alloys of copper in Rohloff
« on: July 30, 2022, 10:15:55 am »
Does Rohloff hub contain parts made from alloys of copper?

Asking since Rohloff's oil contains phosphorus and that corrodes copper.

geocycle

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Re: Alloys of copper in Rohloff
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2022, 12:26:34 pm »
In answer to your question I have no idea. I’ve never seen anyone report corrosion in the hub and not something I’ve experienced in 16 years of ownership. Not something I would worry about.
 

B cereus

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Re: Alloys of copper in Rohloff
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2022, 08:47:21 pm »
I'm not aware that phosphorous in oils will corrode copper or its alloys. Do you have a source for this?  Are you perhaps confusing phosphorous with sulphur additives?

The high phosphorous content of the Rohloff oil is indicative of an organophosphate extreme pressure (EP) additive and I think it's more significant that Rohloff oil doesn't contain any sulphur.  Some EP oils do use organosulphurs as EP additives and should definitely not be used in applications where copper or copper alloy components are present. They will react with the copper to produce a grinding paste of copper sulphide particles  which will cause accelerated wear.

crg

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Re: Alloys of copper in Rohloff
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2022, 04:15:36 pm »
As I recall, copper corrosion can be caused by sulphur and phosphorus changing to their respective acids.

From,
https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/forum/board/message/?o=1my&thread_id=793758&page=1&nested=0&v=M
Rohloff's all seasons oil contains phophorus and boron. Manufactured by Klueber.
Apparently it is identical to Mobil's SHC 626, which has a copper corrosion of 1B.
Hence my conclusion.

Is there a brave soul willing to experiment with SHC 626? One can always perform a VOA for confirmation.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2022, 07:02:58 pm by crg »

B cereus

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Re: Alloys of copper in Rohloff
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2022, 09:32:16 pm »
The CGOAB article has been discussed previously on here and my main criticism is that it's a bit short on detail. The Mobil SHC 626 oil mentioned is only an equivalent of the Rohloff product and it would have been better to have included an analysis of both oils for comparison.

Are you may be overthinking this? From reading your other posts on here, and on other forums, it appears that you plan to add an oil port to an Alfine hub and run the hub with Rohloff oil. There's a lot of information about servicing and lubricating Nexus and Alfine hubs, and IHG hubs in general,  on the Cycling UK forum. Have a look at this thread and in particular pay attention to Brucey's contributions.

https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?t=108125

Brucey's  knowledge is extensive and he recommends  gear oil for hubs where the seals are in good condition or Land-Rover swivel housing grease, a semi fluid grease, where the seals are suspect.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2022, 08:06:17 am by B cereus »

mickeg

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Re: Alloys of copper in Rohloff
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2022, 12:17:00 am »
...
From,
https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/forum/board/message/?o=1my&thread_id=793758&page=1&nested=0&v=M
Rohloff's all seasons oil contains phophorus and boron. Manufactured by Klueber.
Apparently it is identical to Mobil's SHC 626, which has a copper corrosion of 1B.
Hence my conclusion.
...

At that other forum, I am the one that responded:
Thanks for posting, but that is not a very in depth lab report. I was expecting something more comprehensive. Were there some other pages that are missing from the lab?

There are lots of tests you can run on petroleum products, this test did not even assess what the hydrocarbons are, instead it looked at a variety of inorganics. 

Mike Ayling

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Re: Alloys of copper in Rohloff
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2022, 02:30:17 am »
Does Rohloff hub contain parts made from alloys of copper?

Asking since Rohloff's oil contains phosphorus and that corrodes copper.

Given Rohloff's attention to detail I would not loose any sleep over it!

martinf

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Re: Alloys of copper in Rohloff
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2022, 08:00:00 am »
Is there a brave soul willing to experiment with SHC 626? One can always perform a VOA for confirmation.

The fully synthetic oil I use in Shimano gear hubs is "Mobil Mobilube 1 SHC SAE 75W-90 Automotive Gear Lubricant".

I have not yet had any problems and have been using it in Shimano Nexus Premium 8 speed hubs since 2011. And before that, in a Nexus 7-speed hub for a short period.

Doing this voids any warranty, not an issue for me, as all my Shimano hubs are long past their warranty date.

This synthetic oil might be OK in Rohloff hubs, but despite the (relatively) high price I prefer to use Rohloff brand oil. A Rohloff hub is much more expensive and a bit more complicated than a Shimano and I don't intend ever taking one to bits. So I might need to send one back to Rohloff for repair at some stage, probably out of warranty, but I don't want the use of a non-recommended oil to be a possible obstacle to repair.

Whereas if a relatively cheap Shimano gear hub had internal problems I would either replace the entire hub, keep it for future cannibalisation, or try and mend it myself.

mickeg

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Re: Alloys of copper in Rohloff
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2022, 01:10:55 pm »
It was nine years ago when I researched and then bought my Rohloff.  It is my recollection that there is a part or perhaps parts that will physically swell if a contaminant gets into the hub, that part(s) absorb that contaminant.  And the contaminant is common in some oils.  Thus, the reason to not use some other oils that you may have.  I could be wrong, memories fade and change over time thus my recollection on swelling parts  could be some other product instead.

In other words, if there is some part or parts unique to Rohloff that are not used by Shimano, it is unlikely that Rohloff oil would have any great advantage over other oils in a Shimano

Some oils will coat surfaces, dry and harden like a varnish.  I am confident that Rohloff does not do so.  I would not use any oil that I suspect has that characteristic.  I have a small can of oil for lubricating sewing machines, that can is half a century old and has a heavy coat of a varnish like substance on it.  Over the decades I have occasionally seen a brown coating on some Sturmey Archer 3 speed hubs, I suspect from the oils that were added by the users.  I have also seen that varnish coating on vintage Campy hubs, presumably from the Campy grease.  I have a small jar of half century old Campy grease, it used to be an off white but now is a light brown color.  I have not seen any hardened residue from Phil grease or Pedros bike grease.

I used to use synthetic gear lube in my Jeep and Land Rover differentials and transfer cases.  But I am not using any in my Rohloff.  For one thing it is quite viscous and would likely add some drag.

I also have some non-synthetic gear lube on the shelf that I used for my vintage Triumph motorcycles.  The motorcycles have been sold, but the gear lube is still on the shelf looking for a new home.

crg

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Re: Alloys of copper in Rohloff
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2022, 03:26:33 pm »
A couple seem concerned about incomplete test info. Below links to a comprehensive list of tests.
https://www.blackstone-labs.com/tests/tests-price-list/

Which tests would you have liked to perform? I am not offering to test for you, just asking.


PH

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Re: Alloys of copper in Rohloff
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2022, 03:49:42 pm »
From that link:
Quote
Limited information is available with most of these tests. Please call us before sending in a sample to discuss your needs.
So before deciding if the tests met the criteria I wished to set I'd need to ring them to discuss as they suggest.

But what's the point?  Apart from a bit of fun on a forum what's the gain?  Shimano 8 speed hubs run fine with any auto gear oil (Plenty of people have done so with no ill effect) even if you found an exception to that the worst case scenario would mean a new set of innards which are not expensive. Shimano 11 speed and Rohloff hubs are expensive enough that using the correct oil (£4.50 a year/5,000km in the case of Rohloff oil, purchased in 250ml quantities in the UK) just makes sense on any cost/benefit criteria you choose.

mickeg

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Re: Alloys of copper in Rohloff
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2022, 12:53:03 am »
A couple seem concerned about incomplete test info. Below links to a comprehensive list of tests.
https://www.blackstone-labs.com/tests/tests-price-list/

Which tests would you have liked to perform? I am not offering to test for you, just asking.

You really should talk to a chemist to decide if you need to know anything in particular and if so what tests to run to get the answer.  You are asking us which tests we would like to have run, but since I am not seeking any answers, I have no need for any tests.


martinf

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Re: Alloys of copper in Rohloff
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2022, 09:44:36 am »
But what's the point?  Apart from a bit of fun on a forum what's the gain?  Shimano 8 speed hubs run fine with any auto gear oil (Plenty of people have done so with no ill effect) even if you found an exception to that the worst case scenario would mean a new set of innards which are not expensive. Shimano 11 speed and Rohloff hubs are expensive enough that using the correct oil (£4.50 a year/5,000km in the case of Rohloff oil, purchased in 250ml quantities in the UK) just makes sense on any cost/benefit criteria you choose.

Exactly my take.

crg

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Re: Alloys of copper in Rohloff
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2022, 12:57:34 pm »
It was worth the effort for you to point out that the information is incomplete.
But not worth the effort to say how it is incomplete and what would complete it.

B cereus

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Re: Alloys of copper in Rohloff
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2022, 01:55:21 pm »
My comment about a more detailed analysis was mainly concerned with your earlier assertion that the Rohloff oil is identical to Mobil's  SHC 626. The CGOAB article merely states that they are equivalent and, in the absence of an analysis of both oils, we can only guess how close the equivalence is. If I owned a Rohloff hub, which I don't, I wouldn't be swapping to the Mobil oil based on such vague assumptions.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2022, 06:51:48 am by B cereus »