Rohloff gear change

[mickeg]

I think most of my oil loss is from the EX box area, that usually has a coating of oil on it.

Isn't there a hole inside the Rohloff axle meant to sweat oil? I assume the oil came from there and dripped down onto the EX box area via the quick release, because the QR also gets some oil on it.

Yes, I usually have a lot of oil on my skewer.  Have discussed that on this forum before, Dan has not observed oil on his skewer where I have.  But, i am not having oil come out of the other side of my hub and if it was all coming from the hollow axle, I would expect it to come out of the axle on both sides.

[Andre Jute]

The purpose of packing the EXT box...

I stopped reading there, what part are you talking about?  I thought you were an engineer
The external gear mechanism is made of of two primary parts, a transfer box and a cable box, unless you use the correct terms you're leaving the reader to guess what part you're packing with grease. You may think it's obvious, but we've had long threads before where people are talking at cross purposes.

Oh, it is obvious. If you don't see a small black box on your hub, you don't have an EXT box and you're talking about an internal shifter, a different animal, which Thorn favoured in years gone by. If you see a small black box with a large thumbscrew, that's the EXT box. Put the rotary control in either gear 1 or gear 14. Undo the thumbscrew, take the lid off, in the section remaining on the bike see a hollow with a brass nut right in the middle of it -- you can't miss it which is why I mentioned in the part of my post you didn't bother to read before complaining -- and the remains of grease, thoroughly wipe out the grease, pack the void with new grease, put the cover back on (you may need to wiggle the rotary gear change veeeery slightly), do up the thumbscrew, wipe the grease that squeezed out around the cover sealing it to the edge. It's real simple and a bunch of German technical terms will just confuse a small service item which has no need for a litany of artificial difficulties.

This service was discussed in more detail in February 2020 at
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13718.msg102022#msg102022.

[Danneaux]

Dan has not observed oil on his skewer where I have.

As it happened, I did a general wipe-down and compressed air blowoff of my Nomad this weekend to remove dust and paid special attention to the area around the Rohloff's rear axle and EX click-box to check for leaks. It was as clean and oil/mist-free as during our last discussion some time ago. I just dashed out to the garage and took a couple flash photos, which would reveal any oil leaking or misting and you can see the results below.

I pumped my Rohloff EX shift-box full of Phil Waterproof grease about six months after getting the bike in 2012...and have not needed to add any since as there has been no discernible loss. The grease formed an effective seal against the alkali dust I commonly encounter in the deserts of the American Great Basin where I often like to tour and it has prevented any galvanic corrosion between non-noble dissimilar metals, which initially concerned me as a possibility. To make clear, I removed the cover on the EX shift cable-box and pumped the interior cavity where the cable wraps around the pulley full of grease...and lubricated the little geartrain beneath in the transfer box. It i important to note Phil Waterproof grease is not like others. It tends to form an oily surface under load while remaining more greasy in a passive state, where it provides good sealing at perimeter seals. Shifting has remained smooth and consistent since then and without grease migration through local temperature extremes that have ranged from a low of -24.4°C to a high of 44.4°C. In the summertime desert, it has withstood ambient highs of 51.1°C with ground temps of 60°C when I occasionally laid the bike on its side when the surface was too soft to support the loaded bike on its Click-Stand, even with the end resting in the tennis ball with a hole drilled in it I use on soft ground.

This topic of whether, how, and how much to grease the EX shift-box comes up periodically and there seems to be no real consensus in practice among owner-users and sometimes even among service centers (in the case of Rohloff Australia, whose recommendations contradict my preference to fill the 'box with grease) . Their view and others along with photos of my filled EX cable-box appear in the following links for those who might be interested...

Photos, description of Phil-filled click-box:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4523.msg36175#msg36175
Discussion around Rohloff EX-box maintenance:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=12877.msg96403#msg96403
Rohloff Australia's stated "no grease" view:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13718.msg102011#msg102011
More discussions of Ex-box grease, kind, frequency:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=12877.msg96413#msg96413
...and photos from the last outside view of my hub in 2018 here...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4523.msg95429#msg95429
Views taken today attached below.

Best, Dan.

[martinf]

I fill the EXT box on my bike once a year or every 5000km* with green stuff from Phil, the famous bottom bracket maker in the States, but suspect a good marine grease will do as well. Martin mentioned a brand of marine grease he used on his bikes, though whether for this specific purpose is another matter.

I have the internal gear change version of the Rohloff on my Raven Tour and Raven Sport Tour.

But I fitted a Rohloff with the EXT box to one of my Bromptons in 2021.

I put some of the (green) marine grease I use for most bicycle applications on the parts visible underneath the EXT box before fitting it, then smeared a fairly large amount over the parts inside the EXT box, without filling it completely.

The Brompton is not going anywhere near any alkali deserts. The exposed chain, which is much closer to the ground than on a hub-geared large-wheel bike, wouldn't last long in those conditions, so I am not too worried about dust getting inside.

During the first annual oil change a few weeks ago I took the EXT box off and also undid the screws on the cover to check the grease inside and underneath. It looked OK to me so I just left it as it was. 

So I have noted (in my maintenance sheet for this bike) to simply inspect the EXT box/hub interface and the inside of the EXT box at the same time as I do the annual oil change, and only regrease these parts if necessary.

This inspection is very quick to do, the only thing that might be problematic is if the parts inside the EXT box move while doing it, which could put the gear selection out of kilter.

[PH]

The purpose of packing the EXT box...

I stopped reading there, what part are you talking about?  I thought you were an engineer
The external gear mechanism is made of of two primary parts, a transfer box and a cable box, unless you use the correct terms you're leaving the reader to guess what part you're packing with grease. You may think it's obvious, but we've had long threads before where people are talking at cross purposes.

Oh, it is obvious. If you don't see a small black box on your hub, you don't have an EXT box and you're talking about an internal shifter, a different animal, which Thorn favoured in years gone by. If you see a small black box with a large thumbscrew, that's the EXT box.

I think I'll give up, when I were an apprentice you'd get a clip round the back of the head for mis-naming parts and another harder one for claiming it was obvious what you meant.
When I converted from internal to external shifting, it added TWO black boxes. If it's so obvious which one is the EX box, would someone explain where this idea comes from that greasing it will somehow prevent oil leaking out from the hub?  That might be the case if what's being referred to is the transfer box, but obviously not if it's referring to the cable box.  This thread, and the one linked, are clear evidence that there is some confusion here, dismissing it as obvious isn't helpful.

[mickeg]

...
... I fitted a Rohloff with the EXT box to one of my Bromptons in 2021.

I put some of the (green) marine grease I use for most bicycle applications on the parts visible underneath the EXT box before fitting it, then smeared a fairly large amount over the parts inside the EXT box, without filling it completely.
...

Perhaps I should add grease between the hub and EX box mechanism.  As I mentioned above, oil is a good solvent to dissolve grease, but if the volume is completely full of grease, perhaps the oil would take a long time (years) to dissolve it?

I bought my hub and Nomad Mk II frame separate from each other.  I had to remove the EX mechanism to change the position, thus I have had that area open before.

My bike tour in 2019, I flew to my destination.  Flew with the hub rinsed with cleaning oil and drained, then added the Rohloff oil at my destination.  Initially my hub was very quiet in gear 7, but over the next several days my hub sounded noisier in gear 7, I suspect that the excess lube oil was already dripping out of the hub over a few days.

Thanks for posting. 

I generally do not like to fill anything on a bike with grease, as I sometimes ride my bike in winter in temperatures as low as minus 5 to minus 10 degrees C.  But if it would reduce the rate that my oil leaks out, it might be worth having some stiff grease to deal with when shifting.

[martinf]

Perhaps I should add grease between the hub and EX box mechanism.  As I mentioned above, oil is a good solvent to dissolve grease, but if the volume is completely full of grease, perhaps the oil would take a long time (years) to dissolve it?

The marine grease I use is not particularly thick - NLGI 1.5, or sometimes NLGI 2. So if oil leaks onto it, it would dissolve fairly quickly.

But if it would reduce the rate that my oil leaks out, it might be worth having some stiff grease to deal with when shifting.

Oil leaking out doesn't bother me, so long as it doesn't leak too fast. So far, this isn't the case on any of my Rohloff hubs. Unless they get caked in mud, I just wipe them clean when I do the annual oil change.

I am used to oil leaks, it is a feature of Sturmey-Archer 3 and 5 speed hubs from before the mid/early 1980s. On these I try and wipe it off before it gets down the spokes to the wheel rims. With Sturmey-Archer hubs, the idea is to add a few drops of oil at regular intervals rather than a fairly large amount once a year as for the Rohloff.

The advantage is that the slow exit of oil more or less stops any entrance of dust and water, at least in Atlantic coast conditions. I suppose this also works for the Rohloff.

[Tiberius]

Possibly stating the obvious, but.....

For anyone with a disc braked Rohloff remember that both the transfer box and the EXT (coiled cable) box are millimetres away from the disc rotor. If you fill either with a grease/oil that could become 'runny' then it will probably end up on the rotor.

This happened to my bike. It was obvious that I had a problem with the rear brake, but it wasn't IMMEDIATELY obvious what was wrong - no tell tale drips on the floor whatsoever. It was only when I ran my finger along the bottom of the EXT box that I felt a wetness that must have found it's way onto the rotor and then the pads.

[martinf]

Possibly stating the obvious, but.....

For anyone with a disc braked Rohloff remember that both the transfer box and the EXT (coiled cable) box are millimetres away from the disc rotor. If you fill either with a grease/oil that could become 'runny' then it will probably end up on the rotor.

Not a problem at present on my Brompton as I use the stock calliper brakes.

I have a CSS rim with the special black CSS compatible pads and rear brake performance is plenty good enough at the moment, braking is limited by the adhesion of the relatively narrow 16" tyre, not by the brake itself.

I did specify a disc-compatible Rohloff hub in case I ever want to use a disc brake in the future, so will bear this possible issue in mind. 

[martinf]

I have an old Sturmey Archer 3 speed, date code is in the 1960s, the previous owner clearly added way too much oil to that as the oil got into the drum brake mechanism and contaminated the pads.

I think I might have already posted this, but on Sturmey Archer 3 speed hubs with drum brakes I use a very thick grease as a "barrier" to reduce the possibility of the gear lubricant getting through to the drum brake.

The stuff I use is called LPS paste, and dates from at least 30 years ago, maybe quite a bit older. I also use it for outdoor gate hinges, where it dries out at the surface and ressembles tar. On gates it lasts for several years, despite the relatively wet climate where I live.

The Sturmey Archer 3 speed drum brake hubs I have are the more recent grease lubricated version, the very fluid NLGI-0 grease used for the gears is probably slightly less likely to migrate than liquid oil.

So I use 3 different greases in these hubs - NLGI 1.5 or 2 marine grease in the two right-hand bearings, NLGI 0 semi-fluid grease for the gear internal and LPS paste in the left-hand bearing.

[Andre Jute]

The purpose of packing the EXT box...

I stopped reading there, what part are you talking about?  I thought you were an engineer
The external gear mechanism is made of of two primary parts, a transfer box and a cable box, unless you use the correct terms you're leaving the reader to guess what part you're packing with grease. You may think it's obvious, but we've had long threads before where people are talking at cross purposes.

Oh, it is obvious. If you don't see a small black box on your hub, you don't have an EXT box and you're talking about an internal shifter, a different animal, which Thorn favoured in years gone by. If you see a small black box with a large thumbscrew, that's the EXT box.

I think I'll give up, when I were an apprentice you'd get a clip round the back of the head for mis-naming parts and another harder one for claiming it was obvious what you meant.
When I converted from internal to external shifting, it added TWO black boxes. If it's so obvious which one is the EX box, would someone explain where this idea comes from that greasing it will somehow prevent oil leaking out from the hub?  That might be the case if what's being referred to is the transfer box, but obviously not if it's referring to the cable box.  This thread, and the one linked, are clear evidence that there is some confusion here, dismissing it as obvious isn't helpful.

There’s no helping those who won’t see. You’re the one spreading confusion here, Paul.* Once more, the EXT box is a single unit which splits in two. I bypassed the confusion caused by “naming parts” which then require a long description, creating further confusion, by saying the part with the hollow with the brass nut in it is where the grease goes. But you were so intent on blaming me for not naming the parts that you didn’t even read to where I conclusively differentiated the parts. I’ve worked with a lot of time-served craftsmen (all kinds that an industrial designer needs for prototyping, hundreds in the general advertising, blockmaking, fine art printing and publishing setting specialties, together reprographics) in my time, and none of the good ones ever mentioned his apprenticeship to me.

If it is good enough for Herr Rohloff to call both parts together the EXT box, it’s good enough for me. If you don’t like it, take it up with him.

In all this fuss about naming the parts, the newby is being put off without the slightest enlightenment. “What is being transferred, please?” And when he is told that all that is happening is that lengthwise motion of cables is being turned 90 degrees into a perpendicular motion, he says, “Gee, all this, for that?”

*Actually, if it weren’t such a waste of time, it would be comical. “But PH says there are two black boxes,” the innocent newby tells the specialist behind the counter at SJS, “so where’s my other black box?” The specialist, enjoindered by good manners and his boss not to be rude to anyone, takes the EXT box and undoes the thumbscrew. “Here we go,” says the specialist, “two boxes. Are you happy now?” The newby looks doubtfully at the two parts of the EXT box. “But if they don’t have lids, they aren’t two boxes.” The specialist has had enough. “Why don’t you go ask Andre Jute to explain to you how the Buddha said one black box is the lid to the other black box, making one universal box without number.” When I put it in script or a book I’ll call it The Tragedy of the Black Box(es) and send you a couple of beers for your part in the gestation of the idea.

[mickeg]

I have an old Sturmey Archer 3 speed, date code is in the 1960s, the previous owner clearly added way too much oil to that as the oil got into the drum brake mechanism and contaminated the pads.

I think I might have already posted this, but on Sturmey Archer 3 speed hubs with drum brakes I use a very thick grease as a "barrier" to reduce the possibility of the gear lubricant getting through to the drum brake.

The stuff I use is called LPS paste, and dates from at least 30 years ago, maybe quite a bit older. I also use it for outdoor gate hinges, where it dries out at the surface and ressembles tar. On gates it lasts for several years, despite the relatively wet climate where I live.

The Sturmey Archer 3 speed drum brake hubs I have are the more recent grease lubricated version, the very fluid NLGI-0 grease used for the gears is probably slightly less likely to migrate than liquid oil.

So I use 3 different greases in these hubs - NLGI 1.5 or 2 marine grease in the two right-hand bearings, NLGI 0 semi-fluid grease for the gear internal and LPS paste in the left-hand bearing.

Thanks for posting, but I am just adding a few drops of oil at a time, maybe two or three times a year.  I add the oil not through the oil cap in the shell, but in the hollow axle for the gear change chain.  I only use that bike for less than 50 miles a year, short distance trips to the grocery store.

When I bought that bike, used from one of my college professors, he bundled his wife's bike with it.  Her bike had been missing a part for quite a few years, thus had very little use.  In the 1980s, I discarded the frame from his wife's bike, but kept most of the other parts.  I actually have her wheels on the bike I am riding because of the problems with his bike's drum brake.  Both bikes shared wheels and a few other parts.

I did not ride that bike at all for about 30 years, in the 1980s I was unable to buy 650b tires and at that time did not even know what 650b tires were.  But, dug out the bike last year and put some cheap 650b tires on it.  And have occasionally used it for a quick trip to the grocery store.

[martinf]

I am just adding a few drops of oil at a time, maybe two or three times a year.  I add the oil not through the oil cap in the shell, but in the hollow axle for the gear change chain.  I only use that bike for less than 50 miles a year, short distance trips to the grocery store.

Very sparing and occasional oil lubrication is a good strategy for a low mileage bike with an oil-lubricated 3-speed and drum brake.

My "3 different greases" strategy worked well for a moderate mileage visitor bike (about 1,000 km/year) and a low mileage spare bike (about 100 km/year).

I occasionally stripped down both hubs to renew the greases. Less often than once a year, and even less often on the low mileage bike.

[PH]

*Actually, if it weren’t such a waste of time, it would be comical. “But PH says there are two black boxes,” the innocent newby tells the specialist behind the counter at SJS, “so where’s my other black box?” The specialist, enjoindered by good manners and his boss not to be rude to anyone, takes the EXT box and undoes the thumbscrew. “Here we go,” says the specialist, “two boxes. Are you happy now?” The newby looks doubtfully at the two parts of the EXT box. “But if they don’t have lids, they aren’t two boxes.” The specialist has had enough. “Why don’t you go ask Andre Jute to explain to you how the Buddha said one black box is the lid to the other black box, making one universal box without number.” When I put it in script or a book I’ll call it The Tragedy of the Black Box(es) and send you a couple of beers for your part in the gestation of the idea.

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/rohloff-external-gear-mech-kit-8213/

[JohnR]

So it's the Ex cable box that needs a little grease and not the Ex transfer box (item 5 of https://www.rohloff.de/en/service/handbook/speedhub/maintenance/maintanance-tips. Has anyone done maintenance on the transfer box?