Ebike ambitions: Convert my Raven or buy Riese and Muller

[playlord]

Recent medical diagnosis has pushed me toward an eBike. I have a 2004 Raven and a quote to convert it to to an eBike of £1850 (more than I paid for the bike!)

Or I could sell it for around £1,000 and buy a Riese and Muller Charger 3 for about £5,000. The difference of around 2k makes the R&M quite attractive. I'd be grateful for your thoughts/advice, especially if you have eBike experience.

Many thanks
Joe

[Rgill]

Hi Joe

Kate my partner has the charger three  bought it 8 months post partial knee replacement 2 and 1/2 years ago we are presently doing a Lejog together you can read about our travails on the cycle tour page under foolish thoughts and stupid ideas. She loves her bike and I am still the unforgiven at least she says we get there.

Ravi

[JohnR]

I've no e-bike experience but have put Swytch https://www.swytchbike.com/ on my watch list as a way to add modest power assistance to an existing bike if my legs get too weary. The price is reasonable if there's a half price pre-order offer.

Those R&M e-bikes are in the 25 to 30kg weight range which could create some new challenges but have a lot more battery capacity than the Swytch offer.

[PH]

I think electric assistance falls into two broad types - Something to give a bit of help when needed on a bike that rides pretty much unhindered with it turned off.  Or constant assistance, where you're always aware it's an E-bike, though it can be turned down so you're still getting a workout if that's what you're looking for. 
The bikes with mid drive Bosch motors fall into the latter category, the R&M the top of the tree, I have a Trek with the same motor. It's excellent, smooth and predictable, unlike some of the cheaper E-bikes I test rode.
I use that for delivery work, if/when I decide on an E-bike for leisure, if I'm still capable I'd prefer something that rode more like a normal bike, there's quite a choice, but all my knowledge of them is second hand.
is it a Rohloff version of the Charger you're looking at?  I suspect not at that price, but if it is another advantage is that Bosch and Rohloff have collaborated on the way the motor reacts to a gear change. Or is it the Vario version?  I test rode one of those and found it a bit odd, though didn't have long enough to get used to it. 
Whatever you choose I hope it gives you many happy miles, there's a fair few riders in the local CTC group on E-bikes (Of several styles) some would have given up cycling otherwise.

[Andre Jute]

I've made two conversions to Rohloff-hubbed bikes, one to a front wheel drive electric motor, one to central drive electric motor. The front wheel motor conversion is described in detail starting here:
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGbuildingpedelec1.html

Something similar would be an easy conversion on a Raven or other EBB bike with whatever transmission including Rohloff, a couple of hours max. My Bafang/8FUN kit was totally complete, including the battery in an oversized water bottle format, and bought from a British dealer for STG 425 IIRC.

To fit a central motor on a bike with an eccentric bottom bracket, all sorts of contortions are offered. I wouldn't touch them; bicycle engineering should be simple and user-fixable.

To fit a central motor which hangs in the bottom bracket shell, in my opinion the best solution, you must solve the problem of the chain tension adjustment, probably bringing back the sprung drop-arm and jockey wheel, ugh. But the central motors in the aftermarket are better than the motors available for the front wheel, and a better cycling solution too.

I seem to recollect that we recently heard from a forum member who ordered a conversion kit from SJS -- you should look into it. It may be a bit more expensive but you know it will fit and it will work, and there's someone to help you at the end of a phone line.

That said, it shouldn't take even an amateur with a bare-bones tool kit more than an hour or two to fit an electric motor and its complete kit of controllers and the battery. The key word is "complete".

The main difficulty, once you have a good kit and have solved the chain tensioning problem on a Raven, is -- hold on to your hat -- making neat wiring for the many control cables. I considered shortening so many cables -- and bundled up the excess out of sight inside office-type helical plastic cable collectors, which look like they're part of the bike.

Without commenting on the relative prices* I just wonder if converting a bike that will soon be 20 years old makes sense. There's the attraction of the familiar and comfortable, of course, but you'll be introducing new stresses for which the bike wasn't designed to parts that may have been stressed already.

Good luck and don't hesitate to ask about specifics if you decide to make the conversion yourself.

* It rubs all the right people wrong; see
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/LqY0UpZTIP0/m/I18KpJSsCQAJ

[playlord]

Hi Ravi,  thanks for that. Kate should be writing for a living; excellent stuff. Good luck on the trip.

Hello, John R and thanks for the Swytch mention. I did look at them but then made the mistake of visiting the R&M site for the first time!

Thanks, PH. Ideally would have liked the Rohloff version but I'd be moving up a lot in price, as you thought. When I saw that R&M charged about a grand more for Rohloff, that's what made me think of keeping mine and getting the conversion done. It's the Vario version I was considering. I'm hoping to get a test ride as the Glasgow dealer Kinetics is quite close. Would you kindly give me a link to the Trek you have?

Andre, good to see you are still here and still as helpful as ever.  I ought to have said that my DIY skills are so atrociously bad I can do nothing but the basics with bikes. The lad at Kinetics in Glasgow is very good indeed, and he's the one who'd be converting, using, I assume, the same motor/kit that's on the S&M, as he is a dealer for them.  I'll go and see him next week and get a test ride too. Your point on the age of the bike is a good one and has altered my thinking a bit. The bike already weighs plenty, too. And thanks for that final link!

I will post again once I've got more information.

All the best
Joe

[PH]

Would you kindly give me a link to the Trek you have?

The Trek I have is a +5 Allant
https://www.trekbikes.com/gb/en_GB/bikes/hybrid-bikes/electric-hybrid-bikes/allant/allant-5/p/33125/

What I would have really liked was a R&M Multicharger, but it was a commercial decision and I let my head (Or wallet) rule my heart.
Test riding the R&M convinced me I wanted the Bosch Performance CX motor, it was simply better than anything else I tried.  The Trek was the best value bike I could find in stock with it.  The rest of the bike is fine, I've had no issues other than the daft rack design, but it's the motor that gets the praise.

[martinf]

I don't need an e-bike yet, but my plan for the case where I need one in the future is to do this in two stages:

- convert one of my existing Raven Tour bikes with a front-wheel motor kit, fitting this myself. I'll probably also convert to North Road bars and wide saddle at the same time, at present I have drops and Brooks B17 which suit me fine at this stage of my life.

- use this for a while to get some experience of electric assist before deciding on the next stage.

The second stage might be :

- a step-through mid-motor dedicated e-bike, at the moment those with the Bosch motor seem to be the best.

- some kind of electric assisted recumbent, maybe a trike, if I start having balance or prostate problems.

- maybe an electric assisted Brompton folder so I can easily use trains and buses. The issue here would be lifting the extra weight of battery and motor compared to an unassisted Brompton, which I already have.

- hiring an electric car for some of the longer trips that I presently do on a bicycle. This is already possible at the place where I occasionally hire conventional motor vehicles (800 m walk or bike ride from my house), but I haven't tried electric because the charging infrastructure isn't yet very satisfactory here in France.

[Andre Jute]

I don't need an e-bike yet, but my plan for the case where I need one in the future is to do this in two stages:

- convert one of my existing Raven Tour bikes with a front-wheel motor kit, fitting this myself. I'll probably also convert to North Road bars and wide saddle at the same time, at present I have drops and Brooks B17 which suit me fine at this stage of my life.

- use this for a while to get some experience of electric assist before deciding on the next stage.

Smart thinking, that. I did the same and didn't consider my money wasted when I bolloxed the front motor (or more likely its electronics) after about 3.5K km. I learned precisely how strong a motor I would need, how valuable a high torque rating is, and innumerable other details, among them the very important intangible that an electric motor isn't  a capital investment but an expense that'll last a finite number of years, same as a battery (in fact, I still have and use the original battery of the front wheel trial setup). I bought a second motor, this time of higher spec, and for the bottom bracket, from the same maker, Bafang. Several years and about 7000km later I'm convinced I chose the right procedure and the right motors for each stage of my learning process.

Note, I'm not necessarily suggesting the same procedure to the OP, who is in a position to put out the work and get a guarantee from a reputable dealer/workshop, which doesn't describe Ireland at that time. It was a condition of learn for yourself or go without, and I am not an ascetic. In fact, at the time, I was probably Ireland's leading "electric bike expert" -- people used to call from all over the country and drive down to come try my bike in the supermarket parking lot -- which tells you how horribly ignorant the bicycle retailers were!

I imagine that for a guy with your bicycle maintenance experience, Martin, installing the front motor already built into a wheel, plus its associated electronics, will be a breeze, a half-hour job on a bike you're familiar with.

[energyman]

I have fitted a Swytch system to my Mercian.
It is exactly what I want, a light weight bike with a bit of assistance when required.  Range is about 30 miles in lowest assistance on mainly flatish roads.
I also have a R&M Nevo3 which is fine but with a longer range but boy is it a heavy bike.
I have yet to transport it on a train.
I see no trouble getting the Mercian on a train.
The only problem I will have with a crossbar bike will be getting ones leg over.

[JohnR]

I have fitted a Swytch system to my Mercian.
It is exactly what I want, a light weight bike with a bit of assistance when required. Range is about 30 miles in lowest assistance on mainly flatish roads.

Thanks for your comments. Adding some assistance to an existing bike that I'm happy with would be my first step when the time comes as it's relatively low cost and reversible. Which Swytch battery did you get? They list two options: 250Wh (36V 7Ah) and 180Wh (36V 5Ah) with indicated ranges of 50km and 35km at 125W average power output. In reality even 50W should be a significant boost provided the torque is available to help get up hills at relatively slow speed.

I would hope that by the time I'm looking to buy something (which I think is some years away) further enhancements would include (a) optional supplementary batteries and (b) optional regenerative braking. Swytch says "No, our system doesn’t offer regenerative braking. This is because when you are cycling, approximately 95% of your energy is lost to air resistance and rolling resistance, so by adding regenerative braking the increased range would be minimal."

In reality, the losses depend on the cycling conditions. On undulating rural lanes where the effort of getting up hills is rewarded by generous use of brakes on a cautious descent then regenerative braking would turn the wear on physical brakes into stored energy ready for the next hill. Configuring the braking so that initial application of brakes results in regeneration won't be easy but the result will be a substantial increase in the actual range in challenging topography.

[energyman]

I fitted the 7Ah kit.  Your expected range will depend on a multitude of factors so far I've got about 30 miles out of the battery always on the lowest assistance setting  Not sure what you would get on a winter ride yet but it would, I suspect, be less.
It's definitely not suitable for cycle touring IMO !
I've found it great just for local short distance rides.

[kevin_allen]

Well strange I have a R&M charger 3. First off I will say it’s a fantastic bike, it just handles everything no fuss. So why did I just buy a Nomad? Range as much as anything, loaded with 25-30kg I get30 miles on 500wh battery if I use tour and eco. I’ve got the nuvinci hub gear, great to use as it is, I do wonder if it drags. Anyway my wife’s Gazelle does double my range. I need two batteries min. The bike with two batteries and charger is over 30kg before luggage. We would need two chargers and each battery rinsed out takes 4 hours. So I need to know I could get them charged and the added weight, my wife is also such a slow rider I’m waiting all the time. A non ebike made sense and has proven even on the hills to be the right choice.
Back to Charger 3, I bought my one second hand, if buying again I would want Rohloff and two batteries. Despite suspension fork and thudbuster seat post( it’s rubbish get rid of the thudbuster ) the Nomad is more comfortable. R M are wonderful bikes I don’t hesitate to recommend them, I think the over engineering could be refined by a few kg. You will have to adjust your days to what any ebike requires, always the thought of getting the next charge. Days of wild camping in the middle of nowhere are off the agenda. The RM is a complete package of sorted components, it has the motor in the right place and Bosch tech behind it. It handles a load and trailer like it doesn’t exist, all components (except that seat post) are very good, it’s a stately machine not an exciting machine. I just get a limiting range. Hence I also  now have a nomad. So yes superb bikes but like all ebikes comes with different limitations compared to regular bikes. Battery anxiety being one of them! My spec would be dual battery, Rohloff and spare set of batteries. One advantage RM has is although the rack is that awful Mik system I can still get my ortleib panniers on. My wife’s bike also has the Mik but a different shape and nothing but Mik goes straight on. That’s very limiting, the basil range that fits isn’t that great and if you check the recommended load fir each bag it’s not much better than a few tins of soup. I’d watch that on any bike these days. I think the Mik is a scam, oh you just need this or that plastic adapter. Mik solving problems no one had by creating problems no one wants. Just watch it if buying a bike now and you want to tour with luggage, check you can actually get the luggage and weight on it.

[JohnR]

Well strange I have a R&M charger 3. First off I will say it’s a fantastic bike, it just handles everything no fuss. So why did I just buy a Nomad? Range as much as anything, loaded with 25-30kg I get30 miles on 500wh battery if I use tour and eco. I’ve got the nuvinci hub gear, great to use as it is, I do wonder if it drags. Anyway my wife’s Gazelle does double my range. I need two batteries min. The bike with two batteries and charger is over 30kg before luggage. We would need two chargers and each battery rinsed out takes 4 hours. So I need to know I could get them charged and the added weight, my wife is also such a slow rider I’m waiting all the time. A non ebike made sense and has proven even on the hills to be the right choice.

Thanks for the very useful info on real life e-bike performance. As with cars, range anxiety quickly gets onto the agenda.

The Nuvinci hub gear is recognised to be less efficient than the alternatives. There's useful data at https://www.cyclingabout.com/speed-difference-testing-gearbox-systems/ .

[Andre Jute]

The Nuvinci hub gear is recognised to be less efficient than the alternatives. There's useful data at https://www.cyclingabout.com/speed-difference-testing-gearbox-systems/ .

I'm not so sure the efficiency of the hub gearbox is the most important parameter on an e-bike, John, or even near the top of the list. The electric motor tends to smooth over such small differences in efficiency. A 14-speed Rolloff is overkill, even on my hills. Nice to have but not strictly necessary. If your electric motor has enough oomph, as in torque and in battery size, seven gears are more than enough, and five gears would probably do it in most instances if they were sensibly spaced. And, besides the NuVinci's smoothly seamless changes, it is available with an automatic gearbox, which would make for an impressively refined ride.

After about a decade on electric bikes, I would put a beeeeeg battery, or two somewhat smaller, in the first three spots on the list. "Two somewhat smaller" means bigger half the big size -- half the big size disproportionately limits the instantaneous current draw you can call on, with deleterious effects on the rider's smooth progress, and on battery-life too. Alternatively, two half size batteries with sophisticated controls to cut in both when required could save a little weight. On the whole, I think one really big battery is still the best solution.

Electrical current supply is one of the few places where I connect with the old roadies' instinctive revulsion against weight. Batteries are heavy.