Author Topic: Any steep hill tricks?  (Read 9239 times)

Dunroving

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Re: Any steep hill tricks?
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2022, 01:13:46 PM »
...
Then no amount of effort on my part can give me enough forward motion to get the "pause" necessary to move down - and even then, 14th to 11th doesn't really help any.

The working solution is to just stop and move down to about 4th or 5th, to get moving again.

It's a judgement issue, that just requires more focus on my part.

You need more practice.  That is all.  I can't imagine that it is less troublesome to stop and shift and start out than it is to quickly shift.

And if you are following too close, then maybe do not follow that close.

Did you get your grease question answered?

I'm not really following closely per se, it's situations where the person in front just comes to a sudden stop (or when going uphill at medium speed, the person in front suddenly slows right down - often, it's a chain reaction started further up the line). Riding in groups is a lot more unpredictable, especially when it's a group of riders who don't know each other. As you say, and as I alluded to, it's a case of practice/needing to focus more. I never have the same problem when riding by myself.

Hmmmm, grease question ... I must have had a sleep since then, because I can't remember it! ;-) I'll take a look-see if I can find it and reply to your uery.

JohnR

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Re: Any steep hill tricks?
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2022, 01:53:19 PM »
The grease question is answered here http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13718.0.

I do most of my cycling alone and agree that if cycling behind others then more concentration is needed on what they are doing. I prefer to leave a good gap although that's not always possible. Nonetheless, developing subconscious downshifting when slowing will come with time as it's better to be in a gear lower than optimum than in a gear too high.

mickeg

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Re: Any steep hill tricks?
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2022, 07:29:59 PM »
If others slow down so much that you do not have the small fraction of a second that it takes to downshift your Rohloff to get to a lower gear, I am wondering how everyone else that is riding a derailleur bike can downshift to the gear they need to keep rolling. 

Dunroving

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Re: Any steep hill tricks?
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2022, 11:31:40 AM »
If others slow down so much that you do not have the small fraction of a second that it takes to downshift your Rohloff to get to a lower gear, I am wondering how everyone else that is riding a derailleur bike can downshift to the gear they need to keep rolling.

These situations I'm describing have all been on very gnarly, unpredictable steep hills (off-road) - and other riders were having similar problems with derailleur-fitted bikes. If it were on a road, the only thing I'd need to worry about are gear changes, but when you're riding the Trans Cambrian Way, for example (last week), there is a lot of other stuff going on in the unpredictable terrain. We're not exactly in a nice, smooth paceline on tarmac.

But going back to my original, earlier point, the main underlying problem is that I have found myself "turning off" (mentally) with the Rohloff because it is generally more forgiving compared to a derailleur-equipped bike - especially in that you can switch from 14th to 1st at a standstill before starting off.

On a derailleur bike, I'm constantly anticipating what gear I need to get into for what's up ahead. On the Rohloff, you can switch off to a large extent, and as I already said, I've found this lulling me into a false sense of security when really, I should be focusing more and anticipating. Just practice and better familiarity is all that's needed. For every one of the (few) situations where I mess up on a hill, there are dozens of others where the Rohloff has saved me, in comparison to my derailleur-equipped colleagues.

But when I get it wrong, I must say the Rohloff protests to the point it makes me cringe. On a derailleur bike, you can force the bike into another gear under load - even though the bike doesn't like it!

mickeg

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Re: Any steep hill tricks?
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2022, 02:50:50 AM »
...
These situations I'm describing have all been on very gnarly, unpredictable steep hills (off-road) ...

A couple stories from a couple trips on shifting Rohloff hubs on difficult terrain.  I built up my Nomad Mk II in 2013.  Although Thorn strongly recommends flat or upright bars for that bike, I chose drop bars.  In a strong headwind, I can't imagine not using drop bars.  Initially I had my shifter about 4 inches (~~ 10 cm) to the right of the steerer tube below the top of the handlebars.

In 2014, a friend of mine organized a group trip from our community (Madison, WI, USA) to White Rim Trail in Canyonlands.  That is a 4X4  road that is popular for mountain biking.  There were 10 of us.  The ones that did not own mountain bikes rented, those that owned them brought theirs from home.  I chose instead of renting to see how my Nomad Mk II could handle a tough trail.  It was strongly advised that I rent a real mountain bike, or at a minimum get a suspension fork and suspension seatpost for my Nomad.  I got lucky and found a new-old-stock fork that had an uncut steerer that would work.  And used a cheap telescoping seatpost that was not very good.  Thus, there were 10 of us, 9 had full suspension mountain bikes, while I had my Nomad Mk II with suspension fork and seatpost.

Bike worked great but without rear suspension and without much of a suspension on the saddle, there were times the mountain bikes flew past me.  But I REALLY liked the Rohloff, as my shifts were nearly instantaneous, whereas a derailleur bike has to travel at least a half a wheel circumference in distance for the chain to finish moving to the adjacent sprocket.  And I did not have to think about which shifter to shift, front or rear since the Rohloff has a single sequential shifter.  But, I did not like the position of the shifter, as there were times on difficult terrain that I wanted my hands on the outer part of the handlebars for better steering leverage, but I was not able to shift with my hands out where I had leverage.  First photo, the shifter is just to the right of the steerer tube, when i had my hand on the shifter I had no leverage on steering.

And in 2016 I packed up my touring gear and Nomad Mk II and went to Iceland.  In the interior there were some really rough roads.  When you see a rock in the road that is smaller than a tennis ball, you don't bother trying to steer around it, that says something about the road.  There were times that I was trying to pedal up a steep hill and wanted to downshift, but it was difficult terrain and I needed leverage for steering, my shifter was in the same place as before.  One day I was half way up a hill where I really wanted to downshift, but did not want to move my hand to the shifter, I decided when I got home, my shifter was going to get moved to the end of my handlebar, thus I would be able to shift while also being able to steer.  I made that change within a month of getting home on that trip.  Second photo, rough road with lots of rock, third photo - hard to see but my shifter was still where is was before. 

And with my new shifter position using the HubBub adapter, fourth photo.  Shifter on the end of my handlebar, right side.

My point is that in my opinion the Rohloff is one of the best gearing systems you can have in difficult terrain.  Yeah, the mountain bike racers would never dream of something that weighs that much, but for us recreational riders that are not in a race, you can't beat it.  But, it took me a few trips to realize that I needed to move my shifter to where my hands were going to be when traveling difficult terrain. 

I think you just need some practice in shifting to get it all sorted out.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2022, 02:57:52 AM by mickeg »

martinf

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Re: Any steep hill tricks?
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2022, 05:20:36 AM »
But, I did not like the position of the shifter, as there were times on difficult terrain that I wanted my hands on the outer part of the handlebars for better steering leverage, but I was not able to shift with my hands out where I had leverage. 

One day I was half way up a hill where I really wanted to downshift, but did not want to move my hand to the shifter, I decided when I got home, my shifter was going to get moved to the end of my handlebar, thus I would be able to shift while also being able to steer.  I made that change within a month of getting home on that trip.  Second photo, rough road with lots of rock, third photo - hard to see but my shifter was still where is was before. 

And with my new shifter position using the HubBub adapter, fourth photo.  Shifter on the end of my handlebar, right side.

I also use drop handlebars on most of my bikes, but I probably do demanding off-road riding much less frequently.

I went through a similar process. I initially had the Rohloff shifter on a stem-mounted extension bar underneath and parallel to the middle part of the drop bar on the right-hand side.

After a while I moved it to a Hubbub adapter on the right-hand bar end, this position was easier for me to reach when riding on the brake lever hoods, which is where my hands are most of the time. This move was for convenience, not because I had encountered any problems when riding off-road. After about 30 years using bar-end derailleur shifters this position just seemed more natural for me.

I also have a Brompton folding bike with a Rohloff. There is not enough length to fit the Rohloff twist-grip AND a brake lever on the straight part of the M-type handlebar I have on my Brompton, so I have the shifter on a Brompton lamp mount under the raised outer part of the bar, angled slightly backwards to leave enough room for my hand to clear the handlebar. This position is OK for me on that bike. Of course, with it's small wheels and relatively narrow tyres, the Brompton is very rarely used on difficult off-road terrain.

JohnR

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Re: Any steep hill tricks?
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2022, 08:57:29 AM »
My preferred handlebars are Ergotec AHS which are effectively straight bars with U-shaped bar ends. All the controls are on the straight part of the bars which is where my hands are, on average, 80% of the time so the Rohloff shifter is under my right hand waiting to be used. The front part of the bars provide an alternative hand/arm position with slightly less wind drag but I only use that position if there's a clear road ahead.

DIAGMONKEY

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Re: Any steep hill tricks?
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2022, 10:06:18 AM »
I have just made the switch to a Rohloff after years on derailleur equipped bikes.

I've found it easier to change down the gears more often and at a slightly earlier point than I would have done on a derailleur system. This means I am still spinning rather than mashing

I have had only had to stop a couple of times when climbing, both times was when trying to change from gear 8 to gear 7 when pedaling relatively slowly. If you miss time this change you can end up in gear 14. If your quick enough when this happens a longer pause on the next revolution and dumping 3 or 4 gears can sometimes save you having to stop.

The shifting gets easier with practice. After a while it just becomes muscle memory and you don't really have to think about it.

Whatever system you ride, you can get caught out. At least with the Rohloff you can change when stationary and don't need to lift the back wheel to get back into an appropriate gear. I see this as an advantage especially when carrying a load.

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Any steep hill tricks?
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2022, 10:16:49 PM »
It's easy.
Look/ think ahead.
Drop your gears as you go up slightly more than you think you'll need.
If it's going pear shaped ( why are pears bad? ), step off. No shame and you'll have learned a lesson for the next hill.

I think mountains are hill areas.

Best
Matt
Never drink and drive. You may hit a bump  and spill your drink

Danneaux

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Re: Any steep hill tricks?
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2022, 12:20:19 AM »
Since I was 19 (I'm 62 now), one of my favorite cycling activities has been ridge-running/pass hunting. Where I live is surrounded by mountain range foothills on three sides, opening to flat farmland (and stiff headwinds after 10:00) to the north, so cycling on steep gravel access and logging roads, animal trails, singletrack and cross-country uphill has long been part of the fun when I'm not putting in long distances on tarmac. The views afforded from the summits are always worth the effort and make it worthwhile to pack a small pair of binoculars to get the most of it.

This last Sunday, I did a ride in the Thurston Hills near me using my Enduro-Allroad bike equipped with derailleur gearing and a bottom gear of 22x36 or 16 gear-inches, comparable to my Nomad's 36x17 or 15 gear-inches. I enjoyed it so much, I went back today ("For science!") on my Rohloff-equipped Nomad Mk2 to see for myself how (my) techniques varied for the two bikes. Both are equipped with tires having no or little tread -- Innova Swiftor road slicks and Schwalbe Duremes, both in 26x2.0 width and carrying equal pressures of 29psi/1.99bar front, 39psi/2.68bar rear. Each bike carried 2l of water at the time. Both bikes are equipped with Thudbuster Long Travel seatposts which allow me to remain seated as long as possible in rough terrain, ensuring the rear tire remains pressed down by my body weight to aid traction.

Perhaps because it was so steep -- initial grade was 17%, steepest was 26% -- I didn't find much difference in technique though I shifted between the bottom 3-4 gears as terrain allowed. The dried mud and flattened meadow grass offered even less traction than the looser sections of gravel.

Once underway, the gearing was sufficient for me to proceed on the unladen bikes while pedaling. The rub came when I stopped and had to restart. With weight on the saddle it required 3-4 restarts to gain sufficient traction to pull myself and the bikes forward. Otherwise it was fairly easy to pedal the bikes out from under or simply spin the rear wheel. Road slicks made it a bigger challenge but extra fun for me as I always enjoy honing my bike skills. Out-of-saddle starts were often impossible in my 2nd or 3rd lowest gears; there just wasn't enough weight on the rear wheel to prevent traction loss. Upshifting shortly after starting avoided over-revving but were problematic engaging while at rest for the derailleur bike. It might have been better for each bike with knobby-treaded tires but that comparison will have to wait for another day. :)

I'm a spinner, so made up for the low gears with a high cadence and maintained a ground speed of about 3.5mph/5.6kms. I always follow the maxim, "Allow the hill to come to you, rather than coming to it", meaning I pick a cadence and shift to keep it as constant as possible. My preferred cadence is 110-120rpm and I try never to let it drop below 85rpm to spare my knees strain. As a result, I tend to rev up a bit before a shift so I can drop a gear cleanly and not under much or any load as my cadence drops. I never or almost never shift my derailleur or Rohloff drivetrains under load, anticipate the steeper sections and shift in advance, and "float" the shift by making it while I can still spin under less pressure. I avoid over-revving by allowing forward progress to ease as the hill increases slope.

In direct comparison, the two drivetrains shifted equally well using this technique but the Rohloff shifts were considerably faster -- as close to instant as I could want. In contrast, the derailleur drivetrain occurred as early as every quarter-turn when the shift ramps and gates lined up. The difference wasn't much in time but in practice it was huge in feel and I much preferred the Rohloff's immediate engagement. Also, for those times when it was preferable to restart in a higher gear, the derailleur bike needed to be lifted and the drivetrain spun while shifting to select it. The Rohloff, of course, simply needed a twist of the shifter while at rest; startup was in whatever gear I pleased. This didn't matter much when unladen but is a huge convenience factor when the bikes are heavily laden with full touring kit (duh!).

On balance, I found both drivetrains to be pretty much equal for riding technique and function, but the Nomad's Rohloff got the nod for convenience when upshifting underway or when selecting a higher gear from rest.

One huge factor favoring the Nomad for me is its lack of rear derailleur cage. This is always a worry when proceeding cross-country on  a derailleur bike as I don't want to wind up a bunch of grass or have a stick flip into the chain and so end up damaging chain, derailleur, or hanger. This is yet another reason why the Nomad's Rohloff makes it my expedition bike of choice as nothing hangs down in harm's way and I have occasionally found pencil-sized small sticks snapped in two by the chain and sprocket, noticed only by the sharp noise that results as I plow ahead unhindered.

For science!*

Best, Dan.

*Yes, I know this was a far from scientific test, but it was a fun comparison between roughly similar bikes with different drivetrains on the same terrain and riding them made me aware of how similar yet different they are.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2022, 12:39:13 AM by Danneaux »

JohnR

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Re: Any steep hill tricks?
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2022, 05:24:40 PM »
I have had only had to stop a couple of times when climbing, both times was when trying to change from gear 8 to gear 7 when pedaling relatively slowly. If you miss time this change you can end up in gear 14. If your quick enough when this happens a longer pause on the next revolution and dumping 3 or 4 gears can sometimes save you having to stop.
The Rohloff gear shifting improves with the miles which, I assume, is due to smoothing the corners of the gears (you'll see a metallic glint to the oil when you come to change it). The 8 to 7 shift involves the maximum number of gears changing inside the hub at the same time. I've found that dropping from 8 to 6 tends to be easier.

I'm a spinner, so made up for the low gears with a high cadence and maintained a ground speed of about 3.5mph/5.6kms. I always follow the maxim, "Allow the hill to come to you, rather than coming to it", meaning I pick a cadence and shift to keep it as constant as possible. My preferred cadence is 110-120rpm and I try never to let it drop below 85rpm to spare my knees strain.
I can't get above 95rpm even downhill under a light load while my legs are happiest going uphill at about 40rpm. I'm not (yet) worried about my knees which were complaining about running and find cycling much less demanding.

Dunroving

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Re: Any steep hill tricks?
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2022, 02:37:44 PM »
Just wanted to update my previous comments on this issue. I have recently completed 1,000+ miles and 68k feet of ascent of Land's End to John O'Groats and did not have a single issue with a complaining hub during uphill ascents. As you can imagine, over the LEJOG route, I encountered everything in terms of steepness of the gradient, rate of increase in gradient, length of ascent, etc. Two things that were different about this 19-day "ride" were (a) I was always on road surface, albeit this was sometimes a bit lumpy! and (b) I was rarely following others closely.

This tells me that the prior problems that I described were mainly due to having to adjust quickly to whatever somebody in front did unexpectedly, and to unpredictable surfaces.

I should also add that my heavy steel fully-rigid Smithy Mule adventure bike with Rohloff IGH trumped every other bike and rider (N = 10 including me). I was the only person who rode every ascent without stopping or walking, and the only person who also completed the route. The final 52-mile day from Bettyhill to John O'Groats was brutal - yellow weather warning, heavy rain almost all day, and 60 mph gusts attempting to blow us off the road. The 4 besides me who attempted the final day (without any support - the outfit who were leading the LEJOG tour refused to provide support) found that their lighter road bikes, with carbon wheels and aero spokes, were being blown around like kites. Three of them abandoned after 11 miles in 3 hrs (they walked most of it, including downhills). After getting grief for my unfashionable-looking bike on many days, I felt fully redeemed at the end, and did receive some begrudging appreciation of my bike and my efforts from the roady-riding element of the group.

John Saxby

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Re: Any steep hill tricks?
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2022, 04:33:02 PM »
Wow! Pretty serious test of bike, hub and rider. 

Similarly serious endorsement of all three -- "well done!" hardly does justice to your ride.  Hope you can live with considered understatement  ;)

And a second-thought PS:  whatever those "steep hill tricks" might be, I'm guessing you've mastered them. ;)
« Last Edit: October 06, 2022, 08:48:18 PM by John Saxby »

lewis noble

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Re: Any steep hill tricks?
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2022, 06:04:10 PM »
Well done!!

Sounds like the tortoise and hare fable again!!
 

PH

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Re: Any steep hill tricks?
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2022, 10:51:14 AM »
Glad the bikes working well for you.  Not sure it would be my first choice for an on-road LEJoG, but it's not me riding! 
Yes, the Rohloff in a close group can put you out of step with other bikes, that's the case even on road, I had someone nearly run into the back of me on a recent club run when I eased off to make a shift... a 50/50 error...
The last day of your trip sound horrendous, well done for completing.  Hard call to make in such conditions, for riders and crew, I don't know what I'd have done, I certainly wouldn't criticise those who sat it out.
On my JoGLE, we struggled into a gale over Drumochter Pass, from Dalwhinnie heading to Pitlochery, five hours to cover 25 miles, some of it struggling to walk the bikes against the wind, then for the last five miles the skies cleared, the wind disappeared and the sun came out.  We could have spent three hours over lunch and arrived at the same time...