How much is a steel frame worth in scrap value?

[PH]

i also don't need a rohloff to know an ebb has faults, i have had a scott sub35 with an ebb
the fault i found was that if i adjusted the ebb to remove the slack in the chain then the pedals moved and where no longer comfortable for me

So it's all EBB's you consider poor design rather than this particular version?  Maybe you should have made that clear. I can only respond to what you say, in this case you start by saying you agree with the OP, except you don't, they're about to buy another bike with an EBB. their dislike is with this specific design. 

[mickeg]

If anyone is curious on how I adjust my bottom bracket eccentric and avoid getting a groove in it, I just started a new thread on how I do that.  At:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14475

[Bill C]

lol i didn't post to get in an argument over ebbs or rohloffs
i posted to say i thought op was being over the top scrapping a frame, rather than selling it on,
i agreed with op that ebbs aint great and i mentioned rohloff specific frames as they are so limited in the amount of buyers willing to splash cash on a secondhand one
 i mentioned the mech hanger as it would increase the market in secondhand buyers and would of been a useful fallback if you had any trouble with your hub, it would also mean you could run a normal chain tensioner rather having to move the pedals position that's all

i'll sign off as i can see this degenerating and i'd rather it didn't

[martinf]

the fault i found was that if i adjusted the ebb to remove the slack in the chain then the pedals moved and where no longer comfortable for me i have arthritis in both knee's and they are sensitive to saddle height/pedal position

A valid comment on the EBB, and something that bothered me before I got my first Thorn. I had, however, previously owned a tandem with an EBB, so I concluded that I could live with this drawback.

To keep the saddle to pedal distance and angle the same, it is possible to move the saddle (vertically and horizontally) to match the movement when adjusting the EBB. Of course, doing that means that the reach from saddle to handlebar changes slightly.

In pratice, this hasn't yet been a problem for me.

Having a way of adjusting chain tension without a tensioner means that it is possible to fit a Chainglider, which, at least in my experience, reduces chain wear considerably and thus reduces the need to use the adjustment of the EBB.

[martinf]

if the hype is to be believed their are plenty of rohloff users gagging for decent frame or maybe an alfine user

I doubt if there are all that many Rohloff users looking for a second-hand frame.

But if not too expensive, perhaps some users of the much more common Shimano or SRAM hub gears who might like a sturdy frame that can eliminate a chain tensioner. Or maybe someone who wants to build up an inexpensive hub-geared commuter/errand bike with good load capacity.

My own "requirement" is for a large, inexpensive frame that permits the use of a Chainglider, to replace my old mountain-bike frame with vertical dropouts, which is currently used as my "large" visitor bike.

The Nexus Premium 8-speed hub and Marathon Plus puncture resistant rear tyre on this bike reduce the maintenance significantly, but the exposed chain/chainring and sprocket need at least 4 times as much maintenance as my "small" visitor bike with similar gearing and tyres and a Raven Tour Step Through frame, EBB and Chainglider.

The alternative to an EBB frame would be a very old mountain-bike frame with horizontal dropouts. These do turn up locally on the "Le Bon Coin" website from time to time, but so far they have always been too small for me.     

[PH]

the fault i found was that if i adjusted the ebb to remove the slack in the chain then the pedals moved and where no longer comfortable for me i have arthritis in both knee's and they are sensitive to saddle height/pedal position

A valid comment on the EBB, and something that bothered me before I got my first Thorn. I had, however, previously owned a tandem with an EBB, so I concluded that I could live with this drawback.
To keep the saddle to pedal distance and angle the same, it is possible to move the saddle (vertically and horizontally) to match the movement when adjusting the EBB. Of course, doing that means that the reach from saddle to handlebar changes slightly.
In pratcice, this hasn't yet been a problem for me.

That pretty much reflects my own concerns before buying the Raven, though I didn't have the tandem experience.  I adjusted the saddle the first couple of times I tightened the chain, then got bored with it, I have it set to be perfect in the middle of the throw, so it's never more than a few mm out.
So yes, a valid concern and I appreciate a problem for some.  But, not for the OP, they don't dislike an EBB (They're going to buy a bike with another) they dislike the set screw design of their current frame.

[CycleTourer]

The alternative to an EBB frame would be a very old mountain-bike frame with horizontal dropouts.

A "very old mountain-bike frame" is not the only alternative. Surly has horizontal dropouts (its so-called Gnot-Boost design) on several of its current frames, as well as on some only-recently retired ones like the Troll. On these frames, chain tension is adjusted with Surly’s Tuggnut fitted into that dropout.

[PH]

The alternative to an EBB frame would be a very old mountain-bike frame with horizontal dropouts.

A "very old mountain-bike frame" is not the only alternative. Surly has horizontal dropouts (its so-called Gnot-Boost design) on several of its current frames, as well as on some only-recently retired ones like the Troll. On these frames, chain tension is adjusted with Surly’s Tuggnut fitted into that dropout.

I thought martinf's comment was in relation to his own requirements for a "large, inexpensive frame that permits the use of a Chainglider" rather than just a Rohloff alternative.
There's plenty of Rohloff options, probably more ways to move the hub away from the BB than the other way around.  The Surly version is OK, I have an Ogre, it does mean having to adjust the brakes each time you adjust the chain, it also makes getting the wheel out with a mudguard more awkward.  I'd have preferred something where the brake mount moves with the dropout (Assuming discs), Paragon Designworks offer a couple.

[mickeg]

I have never found that adjusting the chain would then require an adjustment to the clamp position on the saddle rails.

Since the chain between the chainring and sprocket is nearly horizontal, adjusting the chain for elongation only moves the relative saddle poition fore and aft with minimal vertical change.  Before I bought my Nomad Mk II I was concerned that i would have to adjust the saddle when I adjusted the chain, but I have never found that to be necessary.

Realistically the chainstays are specified as 466mm.  Thus, if you have 1 percent chain elongation, that is a hair under 5mm that you need to move the bottom bracket spindle to compensate.  I would not notice 5mm of change in spindle location fore or aft.

I have occasionally moved the seatpost up or down a few mm, but since I have several different bike shoes and they have different sole thicknesses, the difference in shoes is bigger than the difference in chain wear for saddle position.

[PH]

Realistically the chainstays are specified as 466mm.  Thus, if you have 1 percent chain elongation, that is a hair under 5mm that you need to move the bottom bracket spindle to compensate.  I would not notice 5mm of change in spindle location fore or aft.

Another way to look at it, if you don't measure chains or subscribe to the idea of changing them at a set wear point, is the maximum required throw is one chain link (Any more than that and you remove a link and start again). So 12.5mm, if the saddle is set for the midway point, your riding position will be a maximum of +/- 6.25mm
There are people for whom that makes a critical difference, I'm not one of them, I do notice it, but it isn't a problem.  When I first got the Raven, I made the mistake of setting the saddle in the perfect spot, a couple of chain adjustments and it did become uncomfortable and I needed to move the saddle about 1cm forward.