Author Topic: Chain glider advice  (Read 11105 times)

in4

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Chain glider advice
« on: December 29, 2020, 07:03:27 am »
I run 45 x 19 on my Mk2 Nomad. Quite happy with that. To use a chainglider I believe I’d need to change to a 42. If I did change would the difference between a 45 and 42 amount to much? Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks. 

martinf

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Re: Chain glider advice
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2020, 09:10:39 am »
The Chainglider rear part designed for Rohloff suits 15 to 17 tooth rear sprockets. It is compatible with the 38T, 42T and 44T front part.

With a large 19T rear sprocket you might be able to use the rear part designed for Nexus hubs, which suits 18 to 22 tooth rear sprockets. This is also compatible with the 38T, 42T and 44T front part. If you do try this, make sure that the rear part does not rub on the Rohloff hub and damage it, this was the issue that led to the introduction of the Rohloff-specific rear part, but at that time large sprockets for Rohloff hubs were rare.

I have a 19T sprocket on my Raven Sport Tour. Trial-fitting a Nexus-compatible Chainglider rear part on this suggests that it will not rub on the Rohloff, but it would need minor surgery to clear the seatstay on the Raven Sport Tour frame. And I would also need to change the current 50T chainring.

So if you want a Chainglider, you would have to change at least the chainring. 44T wouldn't change the gearing much.

An "approved" combination of 38 x16 would fit the Rohloff-specific Chainglider and give nearly exactly the same gearing as your 45 x 19. 

Some chainrings are too thick to work well with a Chainglider. When possible, I prefer the Surly stainless-steel rings, these are thinner than most, stainless steel is supposed to be more hard-wearing than aluminium, and, like the thick aluminium alloy Thorn rings, they can be flipped to get more wear. But I have a couple of family bikes with TA Cyclotouriste rings for 1/8" chain which, despite being rather thick, also work OK with a Chainglider.

UKTony

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Re: Chain glider advice
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2020, 12:10:39 pm »
Chain glider problems aside you might find the Rohloff gearing tables here useful

http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornLivingWithARohloff.pdf

JohnR

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Re: Chain glider advice
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2021, 10:18:05 pm »
If you're in UK then these steel chainrings work fine with the Chainglider:
4 bolt https://www.sourcebmx.com/products/jet-bmx-4-bolt-race-chainring?variant=31801814712431&currency=gbp
5 bolt https://www.sourcebmx.com/products/jet-bmx-5-bolt-race-chainring?nosto=productcategory-nosto-1-copy&currency=gbp

I had to do a lot of searching to find a Chainglider-compatible chainring for my Mercury. More info at http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13973.0 . You may find you need to cut a bit off the rear part of the Chainglider to clear the seat stay.

John Saxby

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Re: Chain glider advice
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2021, 05:24:52 pm »
On stainless rings:  I have used Surly stainless rings (38T & 36T) on my Raven-mit-'glider.  They are very durable, and can be flipped for longer mileage.  OTOH, I have found the production quality to be uneven (pun intended): the most recent 36T rings I have used have been ever-so-slightly oval, producing a noticeable tight spot in the chain, and have also been slightly uneven in the horizontal plane, giving me a slightly irregular chain line when mounted vertically on the bike.

So, I've switched to 36T alloy rings, made by Origin8 for Rivendell Bike Works in California. At first, I thought that these might be slightly too thick to use with the 'glider, but the toothed section of the ring is exactly 3mm.  So that's OK.  (To gain a wee bit more clearance, I also did more plastic surgery on my 'glider, removing 1 millimetre or so from the stiffening "collar" on both halves of the forward section 'glider where it is closest to the leading edge of the chainring.)

The Rivendell alloy rings are exceptionally well made: For the first time in my 2-wheeled life, I can't find a tight spot in my chain.  And, the chainline is spot-on 54mm at every ring bolt.  These rings cannot be flipped, however: the holes for the ring bolts are countersunk.  That helps the all-around snug fit, of course.

Hope that's helpful, Ian, though I realize that the size of the rings I use differ from yours, and that Rivendell's products may not be available right now.

Cheers,  John

PH

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Re: Chain glider advice
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2021, 05:36:43 pm »
I have a question, just out of curiosity, apologies if it's already been answered somewhere. 
I have no chainglider experience, I only know one person who's used it and they didn't keep it long. Does the efficiency, or noise, of a chainglider vary with chain tension? It's hard to imagine how it wouldn't and my experience with a Rohloff, and other hub gears, is that they run noticeably smoother with a slack chain.

Andre Jute

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Re: Chain glider advice
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2021, 10:43:40 pm »
Does the efficiency, or noise, of a chainglider vary with chain tension? It's hard to imagine how it wouldn't and my experience with a Rohloff, and other hub gears, is that they run noticeably smoother with a slack chain.

The short answer is no to both your question and your further perfectly logical supposition.

I run a very slack chain inside a Chainglider on my Rohloff HGB and it has never bothered me either efficiency-wise or aurally. The proof of this pudding is to open the Chainglider after a few thousand clicks and note how much oil has rubbed from the chain onto the inside of the Chainglider.


My Chainglider with 3500km on the chain, still on the factory lube, which at this stage is a soft oil, which just loves sticking to you fingers, your clothes, in fact any surface.  There has been no service or cleaning of any kind. The chain is KMC X8-93. Notice how clean the inside of the Chainglider is.

Clearly, even a slack chain -- and, to repeat, I run my chain very slack -- doesn't rub on the inside of the Chainglider, so it is difficult to see where or how any inefficiency or noise ascribable to the Chainglider can arise.

ourclarioncall

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Re: Chain glider advice
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2021, 02:27:10 am »
I want a rohloff , chain and chainglider

But I’m totally bamboozled by the rear sprockets and chainrings

Does the chainglider only fit certain combinations and Certain brands?

Is there like a standard universal combination that is tried and tested that would be a good recommendation?

Andre Jute

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Re: Chain glider advice
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2021, 04:16:45 am »
I want a rohloff , chain and chainglider

But I’m totally bamboozled by the rear sprockets and chainrings

Does the chainglider only fit certain combinations and Certain brands?

Is there like a standard universal combination that is tried and tested that would be a good recommendation?

A Chainglider consists of two major and some minor parts. You don't need to worry about the minor parts as long as you choose the two major parts right. The two major parts are the sprocket cover and chainring cover, the latter having the runs of chain cover moulded with it as one piece.

There is a proprietary Chainglider dedicated Rohloff rear cover for the sprocket. It would be all right for Martin, who has experience of Chaingliders on several bikes, to mess around with the covers for Shimano or other hub gearboxes, but you, who don't yet know what's what in Chainglider land, would run the risk of scratching your expensive Rohloff HGB if you stray from the approved part. So buy the Chainglider sprocket cover made specifically for the Rohloff, of which there is only one, which takes all the approved sprockets. (Actually, there's another sprocket, but no one fitting out a touring bike would even consider it.) You can now choose between Rohloff sprockets with 15, 16 and 17 teeth.

Before you can choose the front Chainglider cover for the chainring, you must decide how many teeth the chainring will have, because there are three Chainglider front parts which each suits only one tooth count, 38, 42 or 44 teeth. Chainring tooth count and Chainglider front part must be an absolutely precise match or the mismatch will look horrible.

The three front parts of the Hebie Chainglider for 38, 42 and 44 teeth are each duplicated in a short and long version. It's not a big deal because the runs of chain covers must be trimmed to length anyway where they join the sprocket cover, and there is some overlap, but with an extra-long bike (like my 2m+ Kranich, for instance) or an extra-short bike (Surly Karate Monkey, IIRC) it could matter. In practice all that is required is for the bike builder or assembler to measure from the centre of the pedal axle to the centre of the rear axle, and to order the long or the short front part of the Chainglider for his choice of teeth on the chainring accordingly by a code letter for the length on the part number.

At this point, having chosen the number of teeth but not yet chosen the precise chainring your will use, you run into another minor complication, which is that the Chainglider is made to take chainrings of a fixed thickness, thinner than many desirable aluminium chainrings, like the Thorn one. Many of us have solved this problem by buying the Surly stainless steel chainring, but you should inform yourself of whether there is a Surly tooth count for whichever spider you want to mount it to. It's less of a big deal than it sounds, because suitable cranksets are readily and cheaply available, and you probably have something that fits already.

Another consideration with the crankset, either what you have or new, is that the Rohloff spec requires a pretty strict adherence to the approved chainline, but this is easily solved with the right axle length in your bottom bracket or even a few spacers.

All this repays care but is no more difficult than decisions elsewhere about your bike, for instance choosing the bike from the Thorn list that suits your body measurements and riding style.

I were you, I would choose 38x16 teeth, which is the default choice for many upmarket European bikes. For the longest time, and perhaps still, Rohloffs came from the factory with a default 16T sprocket, so it is very common. And 38x16 is, as Martin has pointed out, close to 45x19. Also, a Surly stainless chainring is available in 38T with bolt patterns for common spiders. That makes 38x16 an easy choice for you. It is also a very common starter combination, including with riders here who've since moved on to more exotic transmission combinations on their Rohloff, some requiring surgery. I used 38x16 for years and was perfectly happy, and changed only because after heart surgery I fitted a central motor which required a deep-dished chainring to make the chainline.

The chain is the least of your problems right now. I consider the KMC X8 the best balance between cost and performance, and others here also like it, but other chains also have adherents, such as the Connex chains I used before I switched to KMC.

If you decide to proceed as outlined in this post, ask and we can look up part numbers for you. On this page are some tables I used to decide that I would take the default 38x16T Rohloff transmission from among those which fit the Chainglider:
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGHebieChainglider.html

Good luck.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2021, 06:29:30 am by Andre Jute »

Danneaux

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Re: Chain glider advice
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2021, 04:29:02 am »
Quote
Does the chainglider only fit certain combinations and Certain brands?
Yes, I'll second what Andre said and and home in on one more caveat:

Choose your crankset's BCD/PCD (bolt circle) carefully when you order your bike. I am running a Deore crankset with 104mm BCD. Unfortunately, Surly stainless chainrings are not available in tooth sizes larger than 36t in a 104mm BCD and I am running a 36x17 combo. As was recently mentioned here, suitably thin steel BMX chainrings are available in larger sizes but tend to run toward non-stainless.

Needless to say I want a Chainglider too, but so far have been out of luck unless I change both bottom bracket (an expensive Phil Wood unit), chainring, crankset and sprocket to something closely equivalent to the ratio I have that will fit the Chainglider.  Hebie might introduce additional sizes in the future. Alternatively, Surly may expand its range of 104mm BCD chainring sizes. I hope so. That way I would only have to buy a new sprocket and chainring to fit one of the existing Chainglider sizes/front-rear combinations.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 08:34:47 am by Danneaux »

martinf

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Re: Chain glider advice
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2021, 09:29:27 am »
A possible alternative for long transmission life without a Chainglider might be:

https://www.kmcchain.eu/10000km

Not tried these KMC components myself, and I am unlikely to ever need them for most of my bikes, which already have Chaingliders.

 

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Chain glider advice
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2021, 09:40:10 am »
Looks interesting, Martin.
I'll check the chain I have fitted in my Raven Tour.
It also has a Chainglider.
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spoof

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Re: Chain glider advice
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2021, 04:30:36 pm »
Hello in4/all,

I too have recently considered converting my MK2 Nomad to use the Hebie Chainglider as such messaged some of the lovely folk on here regarding their real world usage all of whom gave excellent advice.
I currently run a 40/17 teeth combination at the moment which I am very much a fan of in terms of usable low and top gearing. The closest ratio to this current setup that allows me to fit and use the hebie plastic shell will be the 38/16 combination (2.353 vs 2.375). As such I do require a new front chainring as well as new rear sprocket and very likely a new chain as well. The current chain is a shimano although I am used to the KMC brand that use quick links. Although I believe KMC quick links in the correct size are listed as suitable for use with shimano HG chains for example, I maybe wrong on this however, but re-using a not so old chain might be a valid option.

The latest rear chainglider part made by Hebie that is designed for rohloff hub sprocket cover is suitable for older threaded sprockets and also the latest rohloff splined sprockets that come with newer rohloff hubs. The later splined sprockets sit just 1mm further outwards so I don't think they will cause any issue when fitting a chainglider. They discontinued the old threaded style sprockets for Rohloff now but Thorn still manufacture their own branded compatible threaded ones which you can buy at the link here...

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sprockets/thorn-sprocket-for-rohloff-hubs-19t/

I noticed not much clearance looking at pictures of other users who fitted the chainglider to their Thorn Nomad MK2 bicycles. Indeed, the chain is already quite close proximity to the rear stays but others have seem to have done it so maybe the rear plastic doesn't cause collision with the frame work. It is on this basis why after research I decided to buy a 16T in the threaded sprocket style since many users with it fitted to their Nomad, at the time of posting, likely be using with this style rear cog. Sliding dropouts must have slightly wider rear stays as such a more generous clearance for allowing room for the rear hebie plastic and also infinite micro adjustment of their chain tensioning. This isn't quite the case with the Nomad MK2 EBB (solved with Nomad MK3) which has the recommended "pit stop" when the chain tension requires adjustment as to provide adequate spacing of dents made in the EBB shell. It did occur to me that adding a chainglider might possibly change this meaning that a stretched chain causing any issue inside the plastic shell might prove a problem which is good to find real world users feedback using them.
Grateful for any users advice on these topics, since I have yet to convert my Nomad to chainglider and if do decide, I might run my current setup out before doing the conversion. I use the Deuter pant protector for clipping in my trousers to save any best trousers getting oily.

Kyle

Andre Jute

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Re: Chain glider advice
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2021, 07:48:24 pm »
So many experts and we overlooked a crucial point: The three front parts of the Hebie Chainglider for 38, 42 and 44 teeth are each duplicated in a short and long version. It's not a big deal because the runs of chain covers must be trimmed to length anyway, and there is some overlap, but with an extra-long bike (like my 2m+ Kranich, for instance) it could matter. In practice all that is required is for the bike builder or assembler to measure from the centre of the pedal axle to the centre of the rear axle, and to order the long or the short front part of the Chainglider accordingly.

I've added this point to my post above, without highlighting it unduly by an "Edit" notification in red. It's just another of the many small inputs into a Chainglider conversion, same as any other decision in the specification of a bike actually is a chain of small decisions.

Danneaux

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Re: Chain glider advice
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2021, 08:55:50 pm »
Good man.
Quote
...In practice all that is required is for the bike builder or assembler to measure from the centre of the pedal axle to the centre of the rear axle, and to order the long or the short front part of the Chainglider accordingly...
...With the eccentric (on a Thorn) in the full-forward position to make sure of the maximum reach needed.

Best,

Dan.