Are tubeless tyres worth it?

[steve216c]

I tried using inner tubes with puncture repair on and off for several years. Not sure if it saved me from punctures through my marathons. What I didn't like was that if I had to deflate the tyre some of the puncture gung would occasionally stop the valve from working effectively, and I would end up with a 'slow puncture' on the valve seal.
The punctures I did have a side wall rip on a Big Apple blow out. That bike now has Marathons. I also rode over a 4 inch nail which even a marathon couldn't hold back, and the hole was too big for any self respecting puncture goo to be able to stop leaking.

In the end I stopped using the self repairing tubes which i had the feeling also added resistance to the ride. Touch wood, no punctures for 18 months or so other than a self inflicted one swapping tyres over.

[JohnR]

I didn't want to be defeated by the problem of seating tubeless tyres so I invested in Mr Wiggle's cheapest track pump and a pressure tank https://www.cyclestore.co.uk/giant_control_tank_tubeless_tire_setter-ID_71788 . Could I get enough of a gale blowing to get the Gravelking SK tyres to seat? No chance! (and I did remove the valve core). I was a bit limited on the pressure I could get into the tank (only 120 psi) as that was the limit of the brute force I could apply but I could hear the air blowing through the gaps between tyre and rim.

I have to wonder if the rims which Mr Thorn's workshop used https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/rims-tape/32-thorn-275-650b-584-disc-rim-black/ aren't ideal for easy fitting of tubeless tyres as there's a pronounced shoulder between the well and the seats for the beads.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/images/products/medium/47966_1.jpg
The rims are also at the narrow end of what's available which I think can't help with the fitting of big tyres.

Perhaps the Thorn workshop has a big compressor and air tank which can keep blowing enough air fast enough for long enough to get the tyres to seat?

Yesterday I received a pair of slightly used 54-584 Schwalbe G-one Bite tyres bought off the 'bay and tried one of those. It seemed to be slightly nearer to wanting to seat but not near enough. Maybe warmer weather would make the sidewalls more flexible and maybe using the tyres with tubes inside might help them to learn the required shape. The other possibility is to try using a 12V compressor intended for car tyres as that can maintain a supply of air while using hands to help guide the beads into position. Trying to go tubeless again is now put away as a project for warmer weather sometime next year. The Gravelking SK tyres seem to be a good choice for winter road conditions and I've noticed that they pick up less mud than the Schwalbe G-one speed tyres. Perhaps they are the equivalent of tip-toeing though the mud.

[JohnR]

Schwalbe make fitting tubeless tyres look easy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV7cQqwL_BQ&feature=emb_title. They also have published a list of rims tested for tubeless compatibility https://www.schwalbe.com/files/schwalbe/userupload/Images/specials/tubeless2018/tabelle_en.pdf (my Thorn rims aren't there).

I raised the question of fitting tubeless tyres on my Thorn rims with Thorn / SJS and one suggestion which I am planning to test, as I haven't tried it already, is to add more rim tape in order to make the uninflated tyres a tighter fit on the rims. I'll report in due course on the outcome as I'm currently waiting for some rim tape having made a researched guess about the appropriate width.

[leftpoole]

Well? Has it yet been decided that tubelass are or are not 'worth it' ??

[energyman]

Possibly ............ but on the other hand..................... 

[JohnR]

I thought it appropriate to update this thread with my progress. I never got the Panaracer Gravelking SKs to seal as tubeless so they spent the winter with tubes. I had one puncture early on after which I added sealant to the inner tubes  and had no further problems. When I removed the Gravelkings in April they were replaced by 50mm Schwalbe Almotions as I wanted something durable because a LEJOG was scheduled for July. The Almotions were fitted with the sealant in tubes for good measure and I didn't get any puncture problems. They are, however, relatively heavy tyres which give a firm ride even when inflated to a relatively soft 30psi.

Once the LEJOG was over I decided it was time to try fitting the G-One Speeds, preferably as tubeless. The first task was to fit Thorn's current recommendation for rim tape. This comprises a layer of the 10mm width of this tape https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/rims-tape/medium-16mm-jante-velox-rim-cloth-self-adhesive-rim-tape/ followed by a layer of this https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tyres-tubestubeless-tyre-spares/milkit-tubeless-sealing-tape-10m-x-21mm/ . The result is less of a dip in the centre of the rim than with the original tape which helps the blast of air push the tyres on the beads.

The original G-One Speed front tyre was still in good condition so I tried that first. After fitting the original tubeless valve with core removed and painting the inside of the rim and the beads with dilute dishwashing detergent I found that two blasts of air from my Giant pressure tank at 120psi got the tyre beads to lock onto the rim. What was more important is that the beads didn't significantly unlock when I removed the valve connector in order to add the sealant. After that I replaced the valve core and used the air tank to make sure that everything was seated again. The only problem was significant air and sealant loss at the valve stem which evidently didn't like the way I had made the hole in the rim tape. However, tightening the nut further and letting the sealant get to work eventually sealed up this leak and the tyre is needing only occasional pressure top-ups.

I then tried some experiments with the rear rim. First was to see if one of the Gravelking SKs would seat, given that it had spent over 2000 miles getting acquainted with the rim. It wouldn't. I concluded that the sidewalls are too floppy. The attached photo shows: (left) the old G-One Speed which clearly remembers the shape it should be; (right) the Almotion (also a folding tyre) which also remembers the required shape and in the front, the Gravelking SK which is trying to fold itself up. Both the only G-One Speed and the Almotion (which doesn't claim to be tubeless ready) showed willingness to lock onto the rim. However, I decided to use a new G-One Speed and that wouldn't quite cooperate as the sidewall had a few kinks from where it had been folded and these left big enough gaps that the air escaped faster than I could put it in. Running this tyre with a tube for a hundred miles with an inner tube sorted out the kinks after which my next attempt was more successful although I took some precautions: (i) Lubricate the beads and inside of rim; (ii) two blasts from the air tank (without valve core in place) to get tyre onto rim then leave tank; (iii) quickly add sealant and re-inflate then, while leaving the tank connected; (iv) get the valve core and tool ready in one hand so that (v) removing connector and inserting valve core didn't result in total pressure loss and the tyre coming away from the beads. Then (vi) add more pressure before tigntening the valve and spinning the wheel (once the tyre was initially on the rim I had put the wheel back in the frame so that the weight of the wheel didn't try to collapse the tyre when at low pressure) to spread the sealant. Pressure loss was minimal (about 10 psi overnight) and 27 miles today should have helped the sealant fill any remaining leaks.

My conclusion so far is that some tubeless-ready tyres are better than others: A tyre which retains the right shape when off the rim is much more likely to seat than one which is too floppy. So that's a black mark against the Gravelking SKs which is unfortunate as they are fairly flexible tyres, have decent grip for winter roads and plenty of life remaining. So they'll probably go back on when the roads start to get mucky with the inner tubes + sealant to keep them in place. I found a 57mm G-One Allround in Amazon Warehouse for £20 which is a possible alternative winter tyre (and does fit inside the mudguards) and am watching out for another at a good price.

I hope this might be of interest / use to someone.

[PH]

Thanks, interesting stuff.  In some ways I'm grateful I don't have any tubless ready rims to tempt me...

[Luker99hy]

My experience of tubeless, for what it is worth, has been good and I like them.

My previous bike was a gravel bike with 650b wheels. The wheels were Mason-Hunt and the tyres WTB Byway 47mm. The ride was so comfortable. On one ride I passed a hedge trimmer and picked-up a thorn in my front tyre. I stopped; removed the thorn, heard the hiss, rotated the tyre by hand and then rode on. No reduction in air pressure. Stress free! Carried plugs but never needed one. I also inspected the tyres after every ride for damage. Any cracks or small holes were filled with Stormsure flexible repair adhesive to prevent anything getting into the tyres. Not too sure what happens if you need to remove a tyre. People say it is much more difficult to remove a tubeless tyre. The tyres were set-up by my LBS initially so cannot comment on how easy they are to set-up.

My Mercury has 700c wheels with lightweight tubes filled with sealant. I chose this option as the Thorn bible suggested that tubeless was only suitable for 650b. Now having second thoughts as I am hoping to buy a Shand Stooshie and they say there is no issue with 700c and tubeless!

[mickeg]

It is my understanding that you need to do some sealant maintenance annually and in some cases more often than that with tubeless.

I average one puncture a year on my bikes.  And I typically ride five or six different bikes a year.  I can't seen doing that much sealant maintenance on my fleet to try to avoid an annual puncture.   So they are not on my planning list.  That said, if I rode one bike and used it often where I was collecting small punctures, I might consider tubeless.

[geocycle]

I have tubeless on my 700c audax bike. I use Schwalbe pro one in 28mm. The good news is they ride beautifully at 60 psi. But they have been a lot more hassle than any tubed tyre. I have had sealant through the sidewalls, a puncture that wouldn’t seal, a tyre that wouldn’t seat, valves getting clogged up…. It’s a long learning experience but in my experience not one I’d repeat on relatively narrow tyres.

[JohnR]

Any cracks or small holes were filled with Stormsure flexible repair adhesive to prevent anything getting into the tyres. Not too sure what happens if you need to remove a tyre. People say it is much more difficult to remove a tubeless tyre. The tyres were set-up by my LBS initially so cannot comment on how easy they are to set-up.

My Mercury has 700c wheels with lightweight tubes filled with sealant. I chose this option as the Thorn bible suggested that tubeless was only suitable for 650b. Now having second thoughts as I am hoping to buy a Shand Stooshie and they say there is no issue with 700c and tubeless!

Thanks for the pointer to Stormsure. I've been wondering about the best fix for any visible cuts and holes.

I had no significant problems with getting the G-One Speed tyres off the Thorn rims last autumn and they must have been there for at least 9 months since the bike was built. Any sealant between tyre and rim will act as a weak glue (no bad thing as it helps keep things together if there's a loss of pressure in normal use) but they pull apart without difficulty. However, there are innumerable combinations of tyres and rims and some may be tighter fit than others (I assume that the Gravelking SKs might work tubeless on rims where they are a tighter fit than on my Thorn rims). I think the challenge with tubeless is not getting the tyres off but getting them inflated after putting on a rim when there's the need to get air through the valve faster than it leaks out through the gaps which is where the air tank is usually needed. I carry a spare tube in case there's a major deflation during a ride plus some tyre boots for patching the tyre on the inside. I've got some plugs but don't theink they will play well with a thin tyre carcass. I'm also intending to put an empty 60ml sealant bottle in the bag so I can suck up most of the sealant from inside the tyre if I need to use a tube. I've also encountered the valve clogging problem but replacement valve cores are cheap.

The benefit is in the more comfortable ride plus less weight (no tube plus a lighter carcass for the same level of puncture tolerance). Getting my bike back into tubeless mode has reminded me about the better comfort. I'm still trying to home in the optimum pressures. They are currently just under 30 psi without impairing rolling resistance.

[mickeg]

Just an FYI here.

I commented above that tubeless is not on my planning list.  But if it was, I would consider something like this.
https://www.vittoria.com/us/en/bike-accessories/tire-inserts

The theory is that if you get a puncture and lose a lot of pressure, your bike is still ridable.  I saw a youtube video by GCN on this and it gave the pros and cons on it.  Apparently this technology has been tested by some of the pro teams in pro racing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66KPtappr-c

[Moronic]

I'm still in the goofy honeymoon stage where my 650b tubeless G-Ones wor great, haven't worn out, haven't punctured and haven't needed more sealant.

So I think they're fantastic.

On the fitting JohnR, Jan Heine at Rene Herse recommends fitting tubes first as standard practice with their tyres, which have very flexible carcasses and are notorious for being hard to set up. Except that he doesn't do any miles on them with tubes - just fits them, inflates the tyre till it locks to the rim, deflates, unhooks one side, removes tube, refits the side, add sealant, amd inflates. Seems to think it always works.

I'm hoping to give his Switchback Hill tyre a try when my G-Ones wear out, so I hope he's right. Not that there's anything wrong with the G-Ones, they're amazing. It's just that Heine says his thres ride like tubulars, and I used to love tubulars formthe way they rode, so I'd like to give them a go.

[Luker99hy]

The theory is that if you get a puncture and lose a lot of pressure, your bike is still ridable.  I saw a youtube video by GCN on this and it gave the pros and cons on it.  Apparently this technology has been tested by some of the pro teams in pro racing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66KPtappr-c

What a novel idea! Who would have thought of filling the void between tyre and rim with something solid just in case air escapes due to a puncture? They charge a fortune for it and you also need tools and sealant. Damn clever marketing!

Bet this guy wished he had put a patent on his idea. https://youtu.be/TNaax5OoNbU Shame he didn't think placing the join in the insert over the valve therefore avoiding the need to make a cut. I'm off to B&Q!

Whatever next? Some wag will no doubt join the insert to the tyre so you don't need air, or sealant, at all and you never get a puncture! Oh wait a minute.......... I guess the wheel is literally going full circle 

[Danneaux]

What a novel idea!

It is! 

'Round my neck of the woods, the cross-country crowd did something a little different back in the early days of MTBs:

They drilled a second valve hole in the rim, 180° away from the original and punched a second hole in the rim tape at the same point.

A second tube was then fitted, so one tube lay under the other. I've done this for others and it was a bear to install the two tubes and the tire but doable with care; the big thing to remember was to keep the innermost tube flat, untwisted and out from under the tire bead.

The outer tube (valve in the standard hole) was then inflated to regular operating pressure; the innermost tube was in effect a second rim tape at this point.

In a race, if the outer tube punctured the rider could simply pull out the thorn or whatever then fill the innermost tube with a CO2 cartridge and keep riding; the punctured outer tube was generally thick enough at two layers to enough to prevent whatever caused the puncture that remained from popping the innermost tube. It worked well enough but at the cost of more rotating weight. There's an Instructable how-to here:
https://www.instructables.com/Bicycle-dual-inner-tube-system/

Best,

Dan.