Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty

[Robin Thorn]

Hello everyone.
I'm afraid I'm only available for a few moments today so this will be my only post on this subject today.
Please be assured that whatever it is we do when we build Rohloff wheels will have been discussed with Stewart Stabik at Rohloff in advance and agreed. That's not to say that we may not have changed our policy on more than one occasion over the years!
Yes, in the past we did have some Rohloff flange failures (as did everyone else who sold any quantity) but we worked with Rohloff and now we've seen none on new wheels built in recent years.
 THE person to read your posts here and reply with our definitive answer is I'm afraid Andy Blance but he's currently touring in the far east on his Rohloff equipped Thorn bike, not back till 10th February. Even if he then needs to remain in quarantine at home for a couple of weeks I expect he'll be able to reply (without reference to his 100's of emails he will have at work).
So... I'm not giving any advice to anyone today as to how to build a Rohloff wheel (from new), all I will say is that at SJSC/Thorn we stand by what we do and offer (I think someone already pointed that out). WRT rebuilding an existing Rohloff hub the advice is simple: Use Rohloff spokes, copy the original pattern, use a really well recognised wheelbuilder.

[PH]

Andre's photo reminds me of another way in which SJS have always deviated from the Rohloff script, my Raven wheelbuild had the spokes cross over the nuts on the none drive side, the opposite to what was (Maybe still is) recommended in the manual.  This wasn't some random decision, I remember reading the rationale for it and although I've forgotten what that was, I remember it sounded like a good idea.

Ah, Thorn get a pass on that as Rohloffs rule is not to cross above the end cap screws on wheels with a diameter of 24" and smaller, over 24" it is permissible. 

I think that one might have changed over the years, I'm pretty sure back in 2004 it applied to all wheel sizes.

[PH]

I think it also means the reinforcing rings that Rohloff now recommend can't be fitted.

PH,
There is a version of the rings that can only be fitted by Rohloff service agents like SJSC that is fitted using heat to increase their size so that when they cool they are a tight fit. New hubs now come with these already fitted at the factory as standard , so I'd think that you could have those fitted if you wished. Should be a quick job seeing as there would be no spokes to remove to fit them.

The rings and your hub lacing were mentioned in this thread: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11802.msg99860#msg99860

Thanks, I remember that thread, it's a shame Dave's diagram has disappeared, it showed how the spokes on a 1X Rohloff build entered the rim at a similar angle to a 3X with a std derailleur hub.
I have no interest in having the reinforcing rings fitted, unless I'm advised by SJS to do so.  My understanding is that their purpose is to keep it together if there's a breakage rather than lessen the chances of one.  I can see why someone embarking on a long exotic tour might consider that an advantage, but I'm not so I don't.

[willywombat]

Well I'm pleased to see Robin ( if I may use first names ) come in on the discussion .

 I must firstly say I've been a fan of SJSC's and Thorn bikes for  over 2 decades,  living within  an hours drive of their premises and have visited many times over the years

I have had 2 Speedhubs from them now ( one indirectly ,as explained  in my original post that started this thread).

It seems astonishing that after all these years, bikes and wheels   being built and sold ,that , if you purchase a hub and wish to build it yourself or have a  local wheel builder do the job , with the current state of affairs,   you are unable   be 100% certain it has been done correctly .

The reasons for this are
1/ misprints in the official handbook which comes with the hub and is available to download, some  of which have been updated ..others have had  the same mistakes  since before 2005. ( all relating to trailing and leading spokes which make you question whether the photo images are correct or the wording. Also the "Pointer" tips re which spoke crosses over or under...is the wording here the wrong way round too?

2/ Examples from the past ..for example Andre Jute's wheel ..built by friends of Herr Rohloff has the spoke heads the opposite way round to those in the manual . Also Thorn themselves have built in this way...Robin did mention how things have often changed after OK'ing with Rohloff HQ.

3/ Andy Blance ..in his comprehensive article available on this site entitled " Living with a Rohloff hub " (2019 version ),himself appears to say that the  Trailing spokes should be oriented with the heads on the outside of the flange which is at odds to the photos in the current handbook . To be fair ..this is based on an assumption that his use of the term " pulling "spokes refers to the Trailing spokes. Why not all use the same terminology to avoid confusion! He also states it must be done exactly as Rohloff say ..,...well it appears Rohloff say the opposite although that depends whether you  take notice of the  wording or the images !

So ...clear as mud at the moment .

Some may consider this all to be a storm in a teacup and that it doesn't really matter but for some of us  it may take years to save  for a premium item like the speedhub and we want to be certain that it's built to maximise longevity.

Tbh if Andy Blance hadn't gone to great lengths to write in depth about how Rohloff were fed up with wheels being built incorrectly and that they were targeting these individuals ( ie by presumably being picky re warranty issues and limiting their responsibility of possible flange breakages) I doubt this morass of uncertainty ( thanks AJ) would have been noticed or even a cause for concern .

All of the information must be clarified as soon as possible . It's not good enough  that I have an expensive  hub sitting at my wheelbuilder's premises  that can't be built up for fear of doing it wrong. Yes I could ask SJSC to sort it ,and then rest assured re warranty ,but that's rather like being held captive and it would incur more time and expense on my behalf.  The fact that Robin Thorn himself won't put his neck on the line re the definitive answer speaks volumes . Perhaps Andy Blance will, or Rohloff themselves could clear  up  all the issues in a written statement.

[willywombat]

Just got an email back from Marko at Rohloff HQ

He confirmed there was an error in translation and said it had been corrected on p55 ( p61 on the pdf ) ...

I already knew this and had gone to great lengths to explain about my concern was with  the errors in the appendix on p125/126 ( again different on PDF version ..shown as p131/132 )

He simply said they "remain unchanged " so whether that means they'll leave them with the errors or are intending to clarify I cannot say so I've emailed yet again to ask about this.

I've also asked if  any wheelbuilding mistakes  are made as a result of the errors ( and no correct literature is available )  Rohloff will take responsibility if it causes problems . I've done this to, hopefully ,get them moving to produce a definitive , error free version but won't keep my hopes too high.

I guess this issue may well benefit SJSC's as if it isn't cleared up most future purchasers will be forced to get them to build up the wheels in order to  maintain peace of mind re the warranty...  On the other hand it has highlighted the purported importance of a correct wheelbuild to avoid issues such as flange breakage which could make some people more wary of buying the hub in the first place.

The saga continues...

[Pavel]

With Robin's input, I'm inclined now to have SJS Cycles build my next Rohloff wheel, but I wonder if they have available the Velocity Dyads, which are my first choice for a light, but still strong wheel?

I hope Andy Blanche chimes in on this thread upon his return.  It's a tremendous advantage in buying Thorn as a brand to have such access to experience - as well as this fine forum.

[mickeg]

... The reinforcing rings are meant to address this problem on existing hubs, but I don't see why Rohloff haven't beefed up the flanges on new manufactured hubs, that seems to me to be a better solution.

Could be lots of reasons, perhaps the aluminum they get to cut the shell from is only available in a certain size?  Or perhaps the equipment used to  cut the shell can't do it?  Could be many reasons, I am not going to speculate but I agree that would have been a better solution.

...
It seems astonishing that after all these years, bikes and wheels   being built and sold ,that , if you purchase a hub and wish to build it yourself or have a  local wheel builder do the job , with the current state of affairs,   you are unable   be 100% certain it has been done correctly .
...

You described me, I bought my rims from one source, hub from another, spokes from yet another and nipples from another.  And my hub came with instructions in a language that I could not read.

But the instructions were available in english on the internet, so I downloaded those.  I probably only spent 10 minutes on the manual and concluded that all I really needed to do was to make sure I lace it up so that it would match the photos.  That is what I did and I did not think anything of it.  Has been trouble free since.

I have read lots of manuals over the years where someone used an electronic translation program to change the language to english and it read really confusing, in that regard I found the Rohloff documents to be quite simple. 

With Robin's input, I'm inclined now to have SJS Cycles build my next Rohloff wheel, but I wonder if they have available the Velocity Dyads, which are my first choice for a light, but still strong wheel?
...

I have Dyads on my Lynskey and a Dyad on the front of my rando bike.  Nice rim.  But, not sure if the spoke angle at the rim would have enough angle for a Rohloff, to the best of my knowledge they can't be ordered with a Rohloff drilling.  I have them on derailleur bikes.  I used Polyax nipples.

[willywombat]

I used Polyax nipples.

 Yes I saw your recommendation for these and the reasons for that choice ,  but would  their use be within Herr Rohloff's rigid specifications 

I might suggest that if all the errors are down to translation confusion then downloading the German manual and translating it using google on the offending pages  might produce a more reliable document to work from!

I actually just looked at the German version and I suspect it is actually error free ..would need confirming but I guess with the native language version that's   more likely to be the case as mistakes would be more easily spotted.

 

[Pavel]

In regards to the dyads, they make them in 26", 650B, and 700cc.  I was thinking of either the 650B or if my daydream of a Rohloff Audax or my fantasy of a Mercury happen to materialize, I'm thinking (wishfully?) that the larger diameter will obviate the problem of the steep angles requiring the special Rohloff drilling.

But even on the 26" wheel I'd chance it perhaps, as they would then go on my Raven RST for lightweight to medium weight riding on decent roads.

That's the thinking, in any case, but no means a certain thing, but rather an investigation to all the possibilities.  It's going to be a four, perhaps five months before I can afford another bling, bling wheel.

[Andre Jute]

In regards to the dyads, they make them in 26", 650B, and 700cc.  I was thinking of either the 650B or if my daydream of a Rohloff Audax or my fantasy of a Mercury happen to materialize, I'm thinking (wishfully?) that the larger diameter will obviate the problem of the steep angles requiring the special Rohloff drilling.

That's a 622mm rim I'm showing. It's a sturdy, hefty thing with angle drilling for a Rohloff hub. When I was shopping for a high-quality bike like the Thorn but without the welded frame, I discovered that all the best German baukasten (a baukast is a custom bike builder, but in American terms more like semi-custom, as they fit only a very short alternatives and options list that the boss personally approves of, the whole ten yards of the German nanny-state -- compare to Thorn, who will bend over backwards to give you what want unless you're stupid) supplied Rohloffs only in hefty, angle-drilled rims, including for 28in wheels. I've been riding over ten years on a set of computer-built wheels which are still the same spec as came from the factory, tight as a drum, no cracks, no bother -- and of necessity I ride straight through potholes at speed on almost every ride because there's nowhere else to go without risking a spill, so those wheels haven't been mollycoddled.

"Wishful?" Maybe. It's a pity I didn't save that drawing from Dave, referred to upthread, but perhaps you can find it with Waybackmachine. Or you can always draw out the entry angles of the spokes in various sizes of rims on your computer. Were me, if I were to build a Rohloff-hubbed wheel, I would choose only a rim available in the correct angle drilling -- and I'd still use the Polyax nipples to normalise any slightly off angle and bed the spokes in right; it isn't worth trying to save the extra few cents the best nipples cost. I'd also avert my eyes and use the butt-ugly (heh-heh) Sapim Strong double-butted spokes in their special Rohloff variant -- IIRC these have specially angled heads and in-flange lengths between the head and the bend. I imagine the spokes Rohloff supplies are these particular items, further investigated for manufacturing burrs which create pressure points for cracks to start, but haven't checked.

BTW, I don't think the manual is machine-translated. That's a high-quality semi-professional or professional job by someone who speaks both languages fluently but is not necessity an engineer. I'd not let that translator at my literary works for a translation from English to German but my technical books for a first rough and second refining pass which I could then polish -- she (most likely a lady from the internal evidence of the style) would get the job in a flash.

[willywombat]

well despite another call and email Rohloff seem to have difficulty comprehending the alleged errors so I printed out the offending pages , highlighted the errors and mailed them back a photo. I'm attaching the pages below and if anyone disagrees with the points please say why . With regards to the spoke crossing info, under "pointers", I'm unsure whether this is correct or not as I don't know the correct way so have put a question mark. After looking at the German manual it seems wrong but that's based on my understanding that Zugspeiche is trailing and Kreuzspeiche is leading. Feel free to correct.
Finally I've also attached p55 which they had actually  noticed and got correct !
Apologies if it's all getting a bit boring .

[Robin Thorn]

Well, i got a reply from Andy, here's what he said:
Hi Robin
Everything we do regarding building wheels has been approved by Rohloff.
Rohloff say that the spokes shouldn’t cross over at a screw - but they admitted that they only said this in case some 16” or 20” rims were going to be used and we were told that with larger dia rims (26”) it would be, as we first thought, better to cross them there.
All the other stuff - flange height, flange support rings, spoke burrs, tension et al has been added, by “decree” since and we have followed these decrees to the letter.
I've spoken to Nick, our wheelbuilder (he has built nearly 23,000 wheels)
Our CURRENT policy is to build all Rohloff wheels with Rohloff spokes.
I'll attempt to attach 4 photos of wheels awaiting being built into bikes (later)
I'm not going to go further into our policy and reasons except to say again that WHATEVER it is we do or have done we stand by.
WRT getting a NEW wheel built elsewhere or doing it yourself, you'll need to rely on your judgement.

[Robin Thorn]

Four photos of wheels from Thorn cycles

[PH]

... The reinforcing rings are meant to address this problem on existing hubs, but I don't see why Rohloff haven't beefed up the flanges on new manufactured hubs, that seems to me to be a better solution.

Could be lots of reasons, perhaps the aluminum they get to cut the shell from is only available in a certain size?  Or perhaps the equipment used to  cut the shell can't do it?  Could be many reasons, I am not going to speculate but I agree that would have been a better solution.

In fairness we do ask a lot of a Rohloff hub compared to a derailleur one, though considering the investment, that's hardly surprising.  Flange failures on standard hubs are hardly unknown, google images  brings plenty of results.  I'm not sure there is a design improvement without a complete reinvention.  Neither am I sure how common it is, I know of seven other Rohloff bikes and I'm the only one to have a flange break, not a big enough sample to conclude anything, but enough to dispel any idea that it's happening all the time. 
My original Rohloff has done over twice the mileage of my derailleur bike, I'm not even certain how many hubs that's had, at least three,  changed because I've bought a complete wheel, or because a new hub is the same price as a few parts,  I haven't broken one, though unlike the Rohloff I haven't done the same mileage on any of them.

[willywombat]

OK Robin ..thanks for those efforts.

It hasn't cleared anything up for the person who buys just  a hub from yourselves and wants to build it up " correctly " but I understand your caution. 

.The photos show  that you seem to have it OK'd to  build in different ways to the handbook instructions ,for example ...In the current German manual (which I'm presuming is relatively error free) it says the leading spoke crosses above the trailing spoke. Your builder has done it the other way round ...as well as the obvious flange showing all spoke heads facing outwards on another lacing.
I guess that doesn't matter because  SJSC take responsibility for these deviations from the  official document.

Andy Blance didn't comment whether he stood by  his statement regarding "pulling spoke " head orientation ( p35 living with a Rohloff hub ) . We'll have to wait for his return to clarify  .....I still  suspect it's a mistake .

Finally  it does seem wrong that  ,  as you say ,

WRT getting a NEW wheel built elsewhere or doing it yourself, you'll need to rely on your judgement./quote]. 

Surely any customer should have access to clear definitive instructions somewhere!