Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty

[mickeg]

Quite frankly, I have never seen a flange failure on any kind of hub.  But, I worked in a bike shop in the early 1970s, things were built differently then, even racing bikes often had 36 spokes.  Since I am not often communicating in person with a lot of other bikers, flange failures would have to be common for me to see them.  I say this on all kinds of hubs, not just Rohloff hubs.  And Rohloffs are quite rare in USA, a neighbor of mine works as a bike mechanic and he has told me that my Rohloff is the only one he has ever seen.

Even spoke failures which are more common, I have not broken a spoke in over a decade (maybe two decades?) and I think the only spokes I have broken were on a Campy hub that had a date code of 1961.  I have never broken a spoke on a wheel that I built.

We all buy insurance for unforeseen events.  I carry spare spokes on bike tours and I added the flange rings to my Rohloff, I see these things as an insurance policy. 

[Pavel]

OK Robin ..thanks for those efforts.

It hasn't cleared anything up for the person who buys just  a hub from yourselves and wants to build it up " correctly " but I understand your caution. 

.The photos show  that you seem to have it OK'd to  build in different ways to the handbook instructions ,for example ...In the current German manual (which I'm presuming is relatively error free) it says the leading spoke crosses above the trailing spoke. Your builder has done it the other way round ...as well as the obvious flange showing all spoke heads facing outwards on another lacing.
I guess that doesn't matter because  SJSC take responsibility for these deviations from the  official document.

Andy Blance didn't comment whether he stood by  his statement regarding "pulling spoke " head orientation ( p35 living with a Rohloff hub ) . We'll have to wait for his return to clarify  .....I still  suspect it's a mistake .

Finally  it does seem wrong that  ,  as you say ,

WRT getting a NEW wheel built elsewhere or doing it yourself, you'll need to rely on your judgement./quote]. 

Surely any customer should have access to clear definitive instructions somewhere!

I would say that looking at the photos, all four of them, leaves no doubt as to leading spokes.  They go inside of the flange, in a cross 2 pattern and one should use only Rohloff spokes.

From my experience with a 20" Rohloff Moulton, I should have thought back and made the assumption that for very small wheels things are more critical, and may require greater precision and care.  That wheel had the spokes bent out of necessity by the builder, at a pretty extreme angle.  I knew nothing about it them, as that was my first Rohloff bicycle, but would not use such a setup again.  I had no problems with it, but only rode that bike on roads with a light load.

I wonder if I bought a bike from Trek, or Surly, if the owner would drop by into a forum thread, and clear things up or offer advice.

Never mind MasterCard, it's Robin, Andy and Danneaux; priceless.

[willywombat]

"I wonder if I bought a bike from Trek, or Surly, if the owner would drop by into a forum thread, and clear things up or offer advice".

Nothing has been cleared up ..only advice that you work it out yourself.

It's not clear , although I'm now 90% sure of the way they want it done :
Leading spoke head out, trailing head in , leading spoke crosses above trailing, use R spokes or Sapim race , tension correctly and lace according to spoke offset of rim obviously.

That's my interpretation ...still waiting on Germany to reply since latest attempt to clarify .

Robin's input is much appreciated but the lack of definitive answers ...(not from Thorn, but Rohloff ,remains frustrating.

I don't think that's unreasonable but maybe I'm expecting too much.

[macspud]

Andy Blance didn't comment whether he stood by  his statement regarding "pulling spoke " head orientation ( p35 living with a Rohloff hub ) .

Actually, if you look at the first photo that Robin has added the trailing/pulling spokes are head in, in the second photo the trailing/pulling spokes are head out, and in the third and fourth photos all spokes are head out. It would seem that the only spoke lacing not currently used by Thorn is all spoke heads in, lol.   

[Pavel]

in pictures 1 through 4 the leading spokes are head out.  Rotate the photos in your heads and it's easy to see.  Now chant, Leading spokes head out, leading spokes head out as much as necessary. The leading spokes are the ones that pull as power is applied.

At this point it's perhaps time to point out that sometimes it's best to admit to one's self that not all were meant to lace up wheels. I can see that pattern clearly, but for other reasons I've come to the humbling conclusion that I'm in that crowd that better make use of SJS's services.  I realize how expensive all the tools are and how infrequently one builds wheels, thus if it's for necessities sake, rather than a hobby onto itself, it's just best to rely on the pros.

It's been a good topic however, it has likely saved me grief and lack of a warranty.

[Andre Jute]

...I'm in that crowd that better make use of SJS's services.

Welcome to the majority. Building a bicycle wheel is an art form best practised by those who practice at it daily. And who, almost without exception, started their prentice wheel building efforts on a cheaper hub than a Rohloff.

[martinf]

Four photos of wheels from Thorn cycles

1st pair of photos have the same spoke pattern as my Raven Sport Tour wheel built by SJS. Difference is that the hub in the photo is for a disc brake, my wheel is for rim brakes.

2nd pair of photos is the pattern SJS recommended for building a Nexus 8 Premium hub (similar but slightly smaller than a Rohloff hub) onto a 16" rim (Brompton). I intend to follow that advice.

[Danneaux]

I'm amazed at the reasonable price of Thorn's wheelbuilding services provided you buy the rim and hub from them and purchase base tape separately. Base price for silver-colored components is listed at £47.99 Inc VAT for a Rohloff wheel including Rohloff-approved spokes, appropriate nipples and labor:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/wheelswheel-build/wheel-build-labour-for-rohloff-hub-only-rohloff-double-butted-201820-silver-spokes-32-holes-per-wheel/?geoc=US

All this from Thorn's wheelbuilder Nick, a man who Robin tells us has built nearly 23,000 wheels. See: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13694.msg101841#msg101841

I've built only a couple hundred. Twenty-three thousand is not nothing! Even if one assumes that is wheels of all types, the number of Rohloff wheels produced is substantial, especially for a single builder.

If costed out of the package price, the labor is astonishingly inexpensive:
● Wheelbuilding services totaling£47.99 Inc VAT
...minus the cost of spokes and nipples (base silver colored) included with the service...
● A set of 35 (3 spare in the instance of a 32-spoke hub) Rohloff-specific spokes with nipples in silver is listed at the SJS Cycles website at £19.99 Inc VAT (if purchased separately) here:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/spokes/146-rohloff-double-butted-201820-spokes-with-nipples-silver-set-of-35/?geoc=US
...Leaving a labor cost of only £28 for expert lacing, truing and tensioning in a wheel Thorn will stand behind.

There's a black-colored option at slightly higher cost and you can purchase alternative nipples which you can then specify to include in the build or not.

Provided you buy the hub from them and they stock a rim you're happy with, this is a remarkably small price to pay for a wheel that is likely to remain problem-free for a very long time.
[Correction/Edit: Custom wheelbuilds are possible with special arrangement. See Robin's followup post at http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13694.msg101860#msg101860 ]

As for Thorn's 10-year warranty against hub flange breakage, reading closely there are clearly stated conditions (See: http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornLivingWithARohloff.pdf , pg. 34):
● It applies to Thorn's Rohloff-equipped bikes (complete)...
● with 32 spoke hubs...
● for the original owner...
● and is dependent upon using only Rohloff-approved replacement spokes should any replacements be necessary while traveling (spares included with each newly purchased bike for this purpose).
While this highlights another benefit of buying a complete new Thorn bicycle, this also points up the value of their wheelbuilds on a used Thorn or done separately as part of their wheelbuilding service. The same materials, care and procedures that allow them to offer the 10-year warranty against hub flange breakage as part of a new bike are baked into the used bike or separately commissioned wheel. That's surely confidence-inspiring. The hub is an expensive item, so one could do worse than following Thorn's advice on component selection, lacing, tensioning, and of course maintaining the hub with scheduled oil changes to prolong its life in ways proven over time.

Apart from any warranty, Thorn have a well-earned reputation for being customer-centric and doing what they can within limits to make things right if there is a problem with things purchased from them and they freely provide high quality advice based on their own experience over time and across many units sold and serviced.

Best,

Dan.

[Robin Thorn]

Just maybe, this is my last post on this subject. 2 things:
1) I'm not trying to NOT give advice to would be wheelbuilders, it's simply this:
I taught myself to build wheels 50 years ago, I started with truing, went on to dismantling and resembling, then on to new stuff, when I started SJSC I built 100's of wheels, when I expanded I first employed Andy Blance, who I taught to build wheels along with his own efforts as a DIY cyclist, together we honed our skills. I then employed John Bowell (his name still exists in the famous Norwich bike shop but he has long retired) who I had helped learn to build wheels himself years before when I was still a teenager) then , some 27 years ago I employed Nick who (if memory serves me correct) was taught by Andy, myself and John. Over these intervening years it's been Nick that has taken the baton and gone forward to build with such excellence, it's true we've had hours and hours conversations, we've had to battle with edicts from rim, spoke and hub manufacturers to determine the "truth" from the bunkum and covering of backs. What we do now is the culmination of 50 years of experience, we take on board all the things we are currently told by manufacturers but some of them we still think we know best. The reason I'm not giving advice as to what to do and why you should do it is simply a) I don't remember everything we decided and why over the decades b) as others have said before, learning to build a wheel using components that cost over £1000 is just not a great idea.
2) To avail yourself of our wheelbuilding service you don't HAVE to buy a rim and/or a hub, you can send us what you have and we will build it up, you can't though order this online, you'll need to talk with sales@sjscycles.com +44-1278-441500 to make arrangements.
If anyone wan't to discuss any of these issues off forum I can be contacted on robin@sjscycles.com or +44127841522

[macspud]

in pictures 1 through 4 the leading spokes are head out. 

Wrong. The first photo is of the non-drive side and has trailing spokes heads in.

[geocycle]

Wow, Nick has built 23,000 wheels!  That's incredible.  All I know that on my two Thorn bikes and several rebuilds by SJS since 2006 I have never had a problem.  Not only that, I have never had a rim go out of true or even touched a spoke key.  Thanks Nick!

[willywombat]

Hopefully, after all this discussion we will get all the apparent errors and ambiguities clarified by the Germans themselves so everybody can rest assured that whoever builds up a Speedhub , wherever , has clear definitive  instructions to follow...even if they don't have the necessary skills. It has all been about covering yourself for the warranty requirements to be met.
Thanks to Robin for the input , particularly the last post he makes above.  Yes  SJSC's offer an excellent service with wheelbuilding not only guaranteed but at a very fair price. I had resisted getting the build done in Bridgewater as
1/ I had bought the rim unavailable at SJSC's and knew of a respected local wheelbuilder
2/ I'd presumed the handbook had all the necessary information

3/ I have  already made 2 visits to discuss with him totalling 2 hrs driving but we still needed clarification ..hence the thread.
3/ By this stage the prospect of another drive to collect, packaging up the items, postage and insurance costs, time etc did not appeal.

However ...I need the hub building up and soon SO ... if Robin can OK it I'm going to bite the bullet and ask my brother to drive up and drop it off in person.
I've spent hours on this ...trying to get clarification ...since my last mail to Rohloff they've gone quiet as I suspect the penny has finally dropped and they decide what to do if anything. I will update if and when they get back to me.
As for 23,000 wheels ...Pah! I've trued a couple myself !
 

[leftpoole]

Hello!
I can build what I consider beautiful well functioning bikes.
BUT I cannot and will not build wheels. In my honest opinion this part of a bike is best left to professionals or at the very very least an expert.
I have read and reread most these messages and frankly I think it’s now pretty tedious!
Can ‘we’ not make a return to Thorn talk that anyone can enjoy?
Happy days everyone.
Best regards,
John

[Pavel]

in pictures 1 through 4 the leading spokes are head out. 

Wrong. The first photo is of the non-drive side and has trailing spokes heads in.

Remind me to never buy any wheels that you've built up.

 The non drive side in the fist photo, is with the brass coupling, side down.  Therefore the top of the wheel is on the right, and as you pedal, the force, were you to draw an arrow on the right hand side is from bottom to top.  The leading spoke is the one under tension, or in other words on the right hand Side of the photo the leading spokes are the ones that extend upwards from while on the left hand side, the force of pedaling against the ground makes the leading spokes the ones which extent downwards from the hub.  I'd have to have a lot of beer before my vision got so blurred in order not to see the leading spokes are button in.  Take another look.

No wonder this gets all mangled up in forums. Some folks can rotate objects in space in their mind. Some can't.  Me? I've learned much in this thread, and it's cleared up my initial confusion on an important topic, that the OP rightfully brought up.  The literature is confusing, that's for sure, but Robin's photos, strike me as perfectly clear.  I also have a new found respect for the art of wheel building, and my bravado has been pegged down several notches.  If I wan't rims only available here, I'll ship them across the pond.

On a related note, I've done my rounds here in Raleigh talking to and shopping around for a local wheel builder.  We have some really good mechanics in this area, and two have built up a very small number of Rohloff hubs.  In taking to them however, I was struck by how they were winging it.  Nope of them knew of any Rohloff specific approaches, nor about the advice to use only Rohloff spokes.  That was news to them.  So I gather they were going to build it up just like any other wheel, but I would have a year long warranty - perhaps.  Hmmm.

[mickeg]

Robin,

As a former bike mechanic, I would suggest you reserve the right to refuse to build a wheel with some components, especially if they are customer provided.  And reserve the option to refuse to issue a warranty on components you feel are not trustworthy.  Sometimes the customer has a crazy idea that is not going to work well.

But your offer to perform labor services with customer provided components is rare and something that I wish I saw more often, especially when it comes to servicing my 2003 Land Rover D2 at the local garage.