Enduro vs Orange P7 Rohloff?

[Al Downie]

http://www.wheelspincycles.com/products.php?plid=m1b0s2p1490&z=1263

I'm torn between these two bikes - they're both around the same price for equally good, no-compromise specs. My main application will be off-road playing about at the weekends (and the P7's credentials in this area are impeccable), but I do want to be able to load it up and go on some extreme adventure tours too (eg: dirt tracks in Tibet).

Thorns advice is pretty categoric - don't put more than 12kg on their off-road bikes. The blokes at Wheelspin however, have informed me that the new P7 frames have bosses for a rear rack, and touring won't be a problem.

I'd be very grateful for any advice or opinions that might make the decision easier!

[jawj]

Hi Al!
I might be able to offer a little advice in this area, being a very happy owner of a P7 fitted with a Rohloff. I went for the P7 specifically as it could be fitted with the hub and I have another (rather ancient...) P7 that I love - so seemed like a natural choice.

I spent today riding around the North Downs on it after having not been riding off-road for a long time and all the reviews are spot on, it is incredible. Up, down, climbing, jumping - grin factor 10 11 []

Having said that (and let's not forget this is Thorn's forum!) the Enduro gets some very good reviews too. I was truly torn between the two bikes but I went for the P7 as I'm a grease monkey in a bike shop so got a discount on the hub, forks, brakes, etc.

The P7 can also take much longer forks. I used to do a spot of downhilling and love going fast on lumpy stuff so 130mm of fork squidging is handy. Please note though - the P7 hates shorter forks! I tried my rigid Pace RC31s on it and the bike was almost unrideable. Not good if you want to tour with rigid forks.

And so to the rack mounts. The P7 does indeed have some handy upper rack bosses on the wishbone bit of the seatstays but... no lower mounts. Bit odd, but there is a lot going on around there with the sliding dropouts and disc mounts. I phoned Orange about where to fit a rack as their website does say it's great for touring. The answer from their technical dept?

"Aye, drill 'oles in t'dropouts."

[:0] Erk.
To be honest, the dropouts are very beefy and could probably take it, but I haven't got round to it (read: plucked up the courage).

Anyway, I am sometimes on the verge of selling it... Not because it's not a great bike but simply because I may have bought a size too big. I have a rather short body and long legs so be warned - they're looooong bikes.

Sorry to witter on so, I'll summarise some other and main points below:

Enduro -
For: Much easier chain tension adjustment; Better cable routing; Proper rack mounts (12kg is loads!); Ability to fit rigid forks.
Against: less fork travel (though you could just ride better...) []

P7 -
For: It rules off-road; Potential to carry more on a rack; Can take longer travel forks if you want them.
Against: No specific cable routing, though I've managed to get mine very neatly running down the disc hose the whole way; Getting chain tension right is faff. It took me many tries to get it right and plenty of Loctite on the bolts to get it to stay right. When the chain starts to wear and go slack I think I'll just chuck on a new chain rather than go through piddling about trying to get the wheel (and flipping disc rotor!) straight.

So am I an unhappy P7 owner wishing I'd bought an Enduro? Not really, to be honest! The P7 truly flies and is lots of fun. I kinda wish I'd bought a Raven Nomad (which I might still do, or perhaps a Stirling...) - just something that could fulfill every single one of my cycling needs from touring to tearing down the singletrack.

If I were you, Al, I'd go for one of these more all-round bikes. I'm very sure they'll be A LOT of fun off-road, more than capable of making you grin while playing at the weekends and could definitely handle loaded extreme touring (well, the Nomad anyway, let's wait and see what the Stirling will be!). The Enduro, as Thorn say, is a "precisely focused... MTB". It's a proper mountain bike and great at that but perhaps a little too specific for your needs?

(Still reading?) []

[PH]

At the moment you’re comparing advice from a manufacturer who knows that advice may lose them a sale, with advice from a retailer who knows that advice may gain them a sale.  I’m not saying the latter is wrong,  I’m saying if it were me I’d get the manufacturer to recommend a suitable weight.  If it is able to take more touring weight, I’d then be asking what the difference is, heavier frame? Stronger tubeset? Longer stays?  Only when you have these answers could you make an informed decision.  To really even it up, ask Orange if they’ll give you a 100 day trail.
I have a feeling that your perfect bike doesn’t exist.  The way I see it you have three choices. 1) Compromise. 2) Get two frames, not as extravagant an option as it might seem, depending on how quickly you want to change, you might only need the frame. 3) Get a bike custom made, Mather, Jacksons, Mercian and Lee Cooper are among those experienced at making Rohloff bikes.

[Al Downie]

> At the moment you’re comparing advice from a manufacturer who knows that advice may lose them a sale, with advice from a retailer who knows that advice may gain them a sale.

That's exactly why I've asked for advice from 'users'! On one hand I'm prepared to acknowledge the level of experience and expertise that Andy and his colleagues in Thorn have, but I know they have a vested interest in selling me a Thorn bike! On the other hand, I'm also a bit concerned by the lazy, 'shrug-of-the-shoulders' answers that the folk at Wheelspin have given when I've spoken to them on the phone. And to make the decision even harder, I've read lots about the trip in Tibet, and while the general concensus is that a mountain bike with front suspension is the weapon of choice, there are plenty of anecdotes about crazy monks travelling the same trails on a daily basis on infamously crap Chinese bikes called 'The Flying Pigeon'. As I write this, I've just received my copy of the 'Adventure Cycle-Touring Handbook', and I'm interested to note the picture on the front cover of a small-frame Catalyst laden with what looks like WAY more than 12kg!

Jawj! Thanks very much for that - it's exactly the advice I was looking for. I've been told that the new P7 frames have proper Rohloff cable-routes brazed on, AND sockets for a rack at the rear dropout. BUT... your comments about handling with shorter forks, and the chain tensioning faff are especially useful. So if you had your choice over again, and could only buy one bike, you reckon it'd be a Nomad? Would you put 80mm forks on it?

[jawj]

Al, short answer: yes.
The P7 is great off-road and the longer forks let you get away with a lot, but with a little more finesse (and perhaps a bit more grudging braking when it gets really lumpy downhill) 80mm is plenty. I've had some of the most fun mountain biking on rigid bikes so I'd very much like to see how the Nomad fares off-road with the tasty rigid forks it comes with. Having said that, the P7 has much shorter chainstays than the Nomad, which affects handling quite a bit. These stays are still an inch longer than on the Enduro, but, looking at the pictures and numbers, I think the P7 has better mud clearance for it.

The Raven Nomad brochure is very persuasive, darn them!!! :-)

(By the way, who told you about the rack mounts and cable-routing for the Rohloff? I'm not a cynic, just a little sceptical, but these 'new' features aren't mentioned on the Orange website. I doubt very much they'd go down the ultra-specific Rohloff cable-routing road... Try and blag some close-up photos of the frame you'd actually be buying before committing.)

[Al Downie]

Hi Jawj,

> these 'new' features aren't mentioned on the Orange website

Yep, that's been the subject of a few telephone calls to Wheelspin Cycles (I think they're the only shop seelling the Rohloff P7 package). I've been assured that there *are* Rohloff-specific cable-guides and rear-rack mounts at the dropout on the new frame. BUT... despite asking a couple of times they haven't put any photos on the website (they're currently showing a single-speed bike on their Rohloff pages), nor have they emailed me any photos, and I'm starting to wonder how reliable their advice is.

However! I've just found out that I've 'won' a singlespeed P7 on Ebay, and that might just satisfy my weekend off-road lust, leaving me with less of a compromise to make on my touring machine. Off to look at the Nomad brochure again. This is killing me!

[PH]

quote:Originally posted by Al Downie

Hi Jawj,

However! I've just found out that I've 'won' a singlespeed P7 on Ebay, and that might just satisfy my weekend off-road lust,

Sounds like the best of both worlds.  Are you going to Rohloff it, if you can get the sliding dropouts it’s very easy.  A friend does this, within 5 minuets of getting home from work on his Raven Sport he can be out playing on his MTB, you wouldn't realise it's the same wheel.

[jawj]

Hey Al,
How's the new P7? Is it a joy?
I've decided to go for a Thorn fitted with the Rohloff permanantly and, partly inspired by you, to get some tasty singlespeed wheels for the P7. I love SSing off-road and SS or not, I'll still have the abilty to go a little bit mad on the downhills... :-D

Let us know how you're getting on with the new and bike and, more importantly, which Thorn you go for!

[Al Downie]

Hah! As it happens, I've also just taken delivery of a Rohloff hub (disk-brake model), built into a Sun Singletrack rim, with cables, shifters and bits & bobs, which I bought on Ebay for £600. AND a Rohloff sliding dropout for the P7. In fact the Ebay purchase also included a chain-tensioner, so if I decide to make the P7 a single-speed again (which is quite likely), then I can experiment with the Rohloff hub on a pristine 10yr-old Rockhopper with brand new XT components which I *also* bought on Ebay for £175. I went a bit bonkers on Ebay recently - in fact the bank stopped all my purchases because they thought my card had been stolen by an obsessive Ebay lunatic.

I do love the single-speed. But I also love tinkering, and all of the above should keep me quiet for the next couple of weeks...

[jcabuckley]

looks nice but i'd still go with the thorn!