Author Topic: efficiency of the Rohloff and other internal-gear hubs  (Read 11785 times)

John Saxby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2033
efficiency of the Rohloff and other internal-gear hubs
« on: August 02, 2017, 08:18:01 PM »
Just saw this article in cyclingabout cited on crazyguy, comparing the efficiency of the Rohloff SpeedHub against other IGHs, including the Pinion:  http://www.cyclingabout.com/speed-difference-testing-gearbox-systems/

The Rohloff website includes this article the the SpeedHub's efficiency:
http://www.rohloff.de/en/technology/speedhub/efficiency_measurement/index.html

The variable noises of the Rohloff shape my sense of what's happening Back There -- I've assumed, on the basis of noise alone, that 11 is the most efficient, followed by 13, 8, 9, & 4. 

geocycle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1327
Re: efficiency of the Rohloff and other internal-gear hubs
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2017, 08:52:38 PM »
Fascinating. Interesting how well gear 8 performs. Overall about what I'd expect with rohloff being around the same efficiency 95% as derailleurs. Shame they didn't test a derailleur set up but I'd have thought 95-98% is not unreasonable.
 

David Simpson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 444
Re: efficiency of the Rohloff and other internal-gear hubs
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2017, 09:31:41 PM »
The original articles were published here (in German):
Part 1 (Sept 2013)
Part 2 (Feb 2014)
Part 3 (June 2015)

The author, Andreas Oehler, is a mechanical engineer at Schmidt Maschinenbau, the maker of the SON dynamo hubs.

- DaveS
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 10:20:22 PM by David Simpson »

mickeg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2801
Re: efficiency of the Rohloff and other internal-gear hubs
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2017, 11:23:21 PM »
I always thought that the 2001 study was the gold standard for Rohloff and derailleur comparisons. 
http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf

In general terms the Rohloff was a couple percent less efficient than a derailleur system, but a new hub that had not been broken in yet was used in the tests so I have assumed that the hub in the test exhibited more friction than typical.  Whenever I discuss friction losses on a Rohloff with someone, I cite the results of the above study.

I recently learned of this comparison of belts and chains.  More and more Rohloffs are coming out with belt drive.
http://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/news/article/chain-or-belt-drive-which-is-faster-36074/

When I was in Iceland, I met I think about eight other Rohloff owners, two had belts.  One of the belt owners told me that he thought it was slower because his touring buddies on derailleur bikes were faster.  I suspect he had traveled with them enough before that he could make a comparison.  I did not even ask him if it was faster or slower, he offered that as a comment. 

That piece on belts above I found to be interesting because they also compared a chain that had no pre-load and a chain that had a small pre-load on it.  The reason that I cite this is because a frame with Rohloff that uses a spring loaded chain tensioner would be less efficient than a frame with an eccentric (assuming that the eccentric was not too tight) because the frame with eccentric would have a chain with a bit of sag (zero pre-load) in it.  And a chain with a small pre-load that has some efficiency loss could be one of the reasons that a derailleur system is not as efficient as you might expect it to be, the derailleur puts some pre-load into the chain.

And of course when you are talking about these small numbers, you have to start to consider chain lubricants too.  And once you go down that road you have to start talking about the friction differences with bigger or smaller sprockets. 

Thanks for posting that new piece that discusses pinions.

David Simpson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 444
Re: efficiency of the Rohloff and other internal-gear hubs
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2017, 12:19:30 AM »
As an engineer, I find these studies to be fascinating. However, the difference in efficiency between the various  internal gear hubs and derailleurs is smaller than the efficiency loss due to tyre differences or aerodynamics.

I have chosen a Rohloff+chain drivetrain for reasons other than efficiency, but it is good to know that I am not sacrificing efficiency.

- DaveS

mickeg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2801
Re: efficiency of the Rohloff and other internal-gear hubs
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2017, 02:31:33 AM »
If you had a Pinion and a Rohloff, you could have 252 gears.  And if my math is right a range of 3345 percent. 

I think Rohloff makes a left hand shifter, if so then you would likely have to put the Pinion shifter on the right side.


JimK

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1652
    • Interdependent Science
Re: efficiency of the Rohloff and other internal-gear hubs
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2017, 05:06:43 AM »
gotta say, that jump in efficiency from 7 to 8 is no surprise! 7 is definitely my un-favorite gear. Of course the noise difference adds a psychological dimension. But I love shifting from 7 to 8!

geocycle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1327
Re: efficiency of the Rohloff and other internal-gear hubs
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2017, 08:51:58 AM »
gotta say, that jump in efficiency from 7 to 8 is no surprise! 7 is definitely my un-favorite gear. Of course the noise difference adds a psychological dimension. But I love shifting from 7 to 8!

Yes I agree!  But why is 8 more efficient than 11 in the test?  That doesn't make sense to me unless it is within error?
 

mickeg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2801
Re: efficiency of the Rohloff and other internal-gear hubs
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2017, 04:40:31 PM »
I think most of the perceived extra friction in gear 7 compared to 8 is from the noise.  But before the first oil change I felt that gears 1 through 7 were much worse than after the first oil change.

***

This is only a guess on my part, but perhaps the extra measured resistance in gear 11 (direct drive) compared to gear 8 is because the seals in the hub offer more friction when the hub is turning over faster.  When you look only at the data from gears 8 through 14 in Figure 8 at this link:
http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf
you see a clear trend of reduced efficiency with greater hub speed.  As I mentioned above, the hub used to obtain this data was new, so it probably still had pretty tight seals and other tolerances.  I can't think of any other reason for gear 8 to be more efficient than gear 11.

Andre Jute

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4128
Re: efficiency of the Rohloff and other internal-gear hubs
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2017, 07:54:53 PM »
When you're getting into these really rather modest differences of a few percent, you have to watch your margin of error very carefully. In addition, in use, you have to exclude both placebo and impressionistic effects, placebo here meaning whether the rider is a roadie who drinks the derailleur koolaid from a camelback or whether he is an engineer who prefers the Rohloff for many perfectly sensible reasons, and impressionistic effects things like the noise around gears 7 to 8 making the bike feel less efficient. I find it heartening that both points have already been made; it demonstrates a proper skepticism.

Also, in these small margins, you have to start asking who is taking the test and what is his track record. This is difficult to explain to so many engineers, but statistical data always has an interpretative element starting with how the test is set up (you can change the outcome by changing the hypothesis), and can easily be turned into an art form (ask me, it's what I made my name on when I was in advertising).

Mind you, like George, I bought the Rohloff for another reason than pure efficiency, though I was aware of the various tests and sets of numbers, of which at the time I bought my Rohloff-equipped bike the roadies were still trying to make a thing. At that time I remembered that I ran with De Villiers Lambrecht a few times (his regular partner at that time was Ivan Latsky) and that he shortly became the world's first barefoot 4-minute miler. He was never faster with the more efficient spiked shoes that by then had long been at a peak of development. The guys from the engineering department at our college could easily spend an hour explaining why he should be faster on spikes. There a canyon a mile deep between "should" and "is".

What I find particularly disturbing about such close statistical comparisons where the margin is a handful of percentage points or often much less, is that they relate very poorly to actual usage. This is for a whole passel of reasons, but two stand out for me. One is that the underlying assumption is that (in this case) the derailleur and Rohloff bikes will be used by robots tuned to peak response, or at the very least highly experienced and fit athletes able at every single gear change to extract the last gramme of efficiency from the machines. The other disturbing underlying assumption is that the kinesthetic satisfactions and other psychological interplays between man and machine have zero value, zero input to the end result; it's BS and every statistician with real life experience knows it.

Let's give you an example from my cycling experience of how wrongheaded the first assumption, of peak operating efficiency is, even though on the face of it it sounds perfectly reasonable. I have two bikes, a Gazelle Toulouse and a Trek Smover, which are both Dutch vakansiefietse, the sort of stadsfiets (an upright commuter) with all the "luxury" extras that the Dutch save for their holidays. Both have eight speed Shimano Premium gearboxes. Both are tuned to precisely my preferred seating/operating position: the ergonomics are identical and the bikes weigh the same to within a few ounces; basically, you need to be an expert to tell them apart. But the Gazelle has a manual gearbox and the Trek has an automatic gearbox. Now, an engineer can test the two bikes and discover that the Trek consumes power (from the hub dynamo that drives all the electronics to change the gears and operate the active suspension) to operate itself, while the Gazelle does not. Conclusion: the Gazelle must be faster. Not so in the least. The Trek, over a circuit I rode at least five times a week, was always faster, simply because the human would never change gears as optimally as the computer. I don't want to brag, but I knew this in advance, long since having discovered that across Europe in a day, from London to Nardo in the boot of Italy, a big soft car with a huge engine and an automatic gearbox (Stirling Moss and I both had 7 liter Ford Galaxy for journeys like that) was oodles faster than a nippy, noisy, uncomfortable, loud little Porsche. By all means refer back to my question about who is taking the test, above. I will instantly agree that a better cyclist would be faster on the manual Gazelle and so narrow the difference between it and the automatic Trek, but will he do it every time? I don't think so. Riding at racing peak all the time is something unpleasant obsessives may do, but I don't know any of those, and suspect that it is an impossible attitude to maintain.

The Galaxy and Porsche "convenience differential" making the big, wallowy American car (I tuned the suspension, of course, but you can't turn a pig's ear into a silk purse) faster describes a psychological effect and will do as an example of my second objection, to machine studies that neglect human considerations.

***
Turning now to an engineering objection to basing decisions on such marginal differences between machines of such fundamentally different approaches, I will say outright that the differences measured are irrelevant. Note that I'm not attacking Andreas Oehler's precision, nor his right to do these comparisons, something it is necessary to say since I earlier refused to take a lamp study from his hand because it was tainted by his employment by Schmidt Maschinenbau, the makers of the SON dynamo, who buy the components of their lamps from B&M, both of whose lamps were in the test. My point is analogous to George's above, where he says the Rohloff was new and would run in and (implied by George) then be more efficient.

The problem is in fact far larger than George's objection. It is that the derailleur when new may well test marginally better than the Rohloff, but from new the Rohloff can only improve, albeit slowly, as it runs in. Chalo Colina, the noted Boeing tool machinist -- he's the guy who designed the 48-spoke Rohloff rim that some of you may lust after -- said that a Rohloff runs in just about the time other hub gearboxes lie themselves down to die. But the derailleur from new is on a permanent downhill slope, and as it wears it loses efficiency, whereas over the same distance the Rohloff picks up efficiency. 

A much more relevant test of a touring gearbox would be at the halfway point in the life of the Rohloff transmission, when the derailleur setup would long since have laid itself down to die, and would therefore offer zero efficiency.

But hey, let's skew the test in favour of the derailleur transmission, as Oehler & Co do (involuntarily -- I'm not accusing them of dishonesty, but I once operated the second-largest -- after the US Census -- research budget in the world and know how easy it is to go wrong), and take the test with the derailleur at the halfway point of its life, when the Rohloff is still running in, and I'm betting that the Rohloff will be more efficient than the worn derailleur.

I haven't finished yet. The same applies to every ride. The derailleur at the midpoint of the ride will have picked up some dirt and be less efficient than at the beginning of the ride. The derailleur will offer even less efficiency at the end of the ride. The Rohloff, fully enclosed, will offer the same operating efficiency at the beginning, the middle and the end of the ride.

In short: In a fair test, extended over the life of the two transmission systems, with real users under real-life conditions, who thinks the Rohloff won't come out ahead on both efficiency and satisfaction?

***
For these rather good kinesthetic, psychological, statistical and engineering reasons, I think tests like these are interesting  but anyone inclined to take the face value of their results as important inputs to purchasing decisions should wait on a bit until he can get more experienced advice.

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8281
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: efficiency of the Rohloff and other internal-gear hubs
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2017, 08:25:50 PM »
Quote
The derailleur at the midpoint of the ride will have picked up some dirt and be less efficient than at the beginning of the ride. The derailleur will offer even less efficiency at the end of the ride. The Rohloff, fully enclosed, will offer the same operating efficiency at the beginning, the middle and the end of the ride.
True, but the far greater sources of derailleur drivetrain inefficiency are not dirt and not the freehub/freewheel assembly itself nor the chain (which ofttimes is identical to the one used on IGH drivetrains).

Rather, it is the effect of cross-chaining (i.e. deviation from a perfectly straight chainline, worst in big-little and little-big combos at the extremes) and the increased friction caused by wrapping the chain 'round very small jockey and tension pulleys. FrictionFacts ( https://www.friction-facts.com/ ) found pulley size played a large role. The Shimano Altus uses much larger than normal derailleur pulleys and this results in lower frictoinal losses and longer chain life.

My "vintage" derailleur randonneur bikes with half-step-and-granny gearing have stupendous drivetrain life for derailleur machines because I designed them so my most-used gear combinations offer the straightest chainlines and I opted for larger and wider chainrings and cogs than is currently fashionable. I'm using thick 50t/45t or 48/45t chainrings and 5- to 6-sp cogs and replace the chains frequently, all with good result. In contrast, I can burn through one or two 9-sp crossover drivetrains each summer when I am doing Big Distances (i.e. May-September and 7,000mi or so). "Drivetrains" means chains, the most-used chainring on a crossover setup, and the most-used cogs in entire cassettes (careful shopping will usually yield a whole new cassette for little more than a single new cog or two -- when they can be found).

I really love my Rohloff-hubbed Nomad. The Rohloff is the best alternative for my kind of long-distance riding with modern equipment.

Best,

Dan.

martinf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1167
Re: efficiency of the Rohloff and other internal-gear hubs
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2017, 10:17:36 PM »
I've been running hub gear bikes and derailleur bikes since the 1970's.

Until the advent of the SRAM 7, Shimano 8 and Rohloff, no hub gears had wide-range gearing, so for loaded touring in hilly areas derailleurs were the only reasonable choice for most people.

For many years I used oil-lubricated Sturmey-Archer 5-speeds with a 225% gear range for a lot of my riding, but always had a derailleur bike with a gear range of at least 400 % for touring.

For racers and other riders who like to use very close gear steps, again, derailleurs are the only choice. I tried using close range gearing with 1 tooth steps on 5 of the 8 cassette cogs, then bigger jumps to get some low gears as well. Most of the time I shifted 2 or 3 gears at once, so concluded that that type of gearing didn't suit my riding style.

In all the published tests I have seen, derailleur bikes seem to beat hub gears for efficiency.

In real-life conditions, I haven't found much difference in riding times between most of the hub gears I have used and derailleur gears, so long as they were on roughly comparable bikes.

One exception was the Shimano Nexus 7, which was noticeably slower on a 22km commute than both the 5-speed hub it directly replaced and a similar bike with derailleur gearing. Even this hub improved somewhat with use, and improved more when I substituted oil lubrication for the original grease in the hub.

My experience of Shimano Nexus 8 Premium hubs is different from the data published by Andreas Oehler. I suspect that he used the standard version with plain bearing planets, which may be a bit less efficient than the Premium version I have, which has roller bearings in the planet pinions like the Alfine 8. I also replaced the factory grease with oil, which may also explain some of the difference.

I think that my Nexus 8 Premium with about 2,800 kms of use is, at the moment, probably slightly more efficient than my two Rohloffs, which aren't really run in yet. And, when I originally put the Nexus 8 Premium on my old mountain bike as a direct replacement for a wide-range derailleur system I noticed no significant difference in "before and after" trip times over a 50-odd km training circuit I did several times with each gear system. This wasn't what I expected, I noted average speeds of 23.85 kph with the derailleur over a total of 403 kms and 24,05 kph with the hub gear over a total of 238 kms. One reason for this unexpected result may have been that the derailleur system was fairly worn, so maybe performed less well than a new system.

I reckon that hub gears definitely beat derailleurs for overall time efficiency when you add maintenance time to riding time. So long as the hub gear is reliable (not all are), with hub gears I spend much less time repairing/replacing parts and cleaning the chain and sprockets and also leave longer intervals between maintenance on hub gear bikes.

From the 1970's until recently, for local use, mainly commuting and utility rides, I put up with the limited overall range of 225% and rather large gear steps (18%,27%,27%,18%) of the Sturmey Archer 5-speed hub in order to enjoy the advantages of low maintenance and relatively good reliability, combined with very long service life.

With a Rohloff, I can now get the same low maintenance (and hopefully similar high reliability and long service life) as the Sturmey Archer 5-speed hub and also have a wide enough gear range for touring/off-road riding.

The Shimano Nexus 8 Premium hubs, and probably the Alfine 8, seem to be a better choice than the Rohloff for me for local riding, as the 8-speeds generally have enough range, they seem reliable enough and cheap enough to replace if they do fail, and I feel more comfortable about leaving a moderately priced bike locked up rather than worrying about possible theft of an expensive Rohloff bike.

An additional benefit of hub gears is that a Chainglider can be used. I was initially rather sceptical about this and suspected that it might add friction and be less efficient. So I did four 25 km rides without and four with a Chainglider, on a non-optimal setup for a chainglider with fairly thick TA chainring and 1/8" chain, again with no significant speed difference. 5 years on, I accept that a Chainglider will further reduce maintenance and pay for itself by extending chainring, chain and spocket life, at least when used for my type of riding (all-weather commuting/touring/survey-work in Southern Brittany, incuding riding on sandy and muddy tracks but excluding alkali dust).


Andre Jute

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4128
Re: efficiency of the Rohloff and other internal-gear hubs
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2017, 11:07:59 PM »
Rather, it is the effect of cross-chaining (i.e. deviation from a perfectly straight chainline, worst in big-little and little-big combos at the extremes) and the increased friction caused by wrapping the chain 'round very small jockey and tension pulleys. FrictionFacts ( https://www.friction-facts.com/ ) found pulley size played a large role.

Oh, I agree. We've before this speculated on a straight chainline as a contributing factor in getting greater mileages per chain on a Rohloff, which would presumably also be true for other transmission components in contact with the chain. And the absence of a tensioner and its associated wheelies on most Rohloff installations will also have a beneficial effect not only on efficiency, as noted by another poster above, but also on wear in the other transmission components, so that the benefit is carried forward as another factor in the Rohloff first closing the gap to the derailleur system and then opening up an advantage of its own as the derailleur system wears.

But, as Martin has already noted, the efficiency of hub gearboxes, and particularly the Rohloff as the most reliable hub gearbox known, doesn't lie only in the mechanics but, to most of us, I think, in its convenience, its very modest requirement for maintenance, especially when coupled with the beatified Chainglider.

Ironically, considering the fuss some people make about the initial cost of the Rohloff, its largest efficiency will in the end lie in its very modest per-kilometer cost. My Rolloff-equipped bike, rising 10K, is just run in, with at least another 100K to come, but it is already (if it were scrapped today, zero residual value) around 40% per kilometer cheaper than any derailleur or HGB bike I've ever owned. Compared to all the bikes I previously owned, my Rohloff bike's future is essentially cost-free. Now that is an efficiency worth contemplating at length.

mickeg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2801
Re: efficiency of the Rohloff and other internal-gear hubs
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2017, 01:15:22 AM »
A comment on MartinF's comments on Sturmey Archer, Sram, Shimano IGH hubs, I suspect that the hubs that are grease packed instead of oiled will always show some additional resistance with the possible exception of when you are in a direct drive gear.  That was also mentioned in the reference that I cited that was published in 2001.  But I think the grease packed hubs have looser seals that have less drag than the seals on the oil bath hubs.

I have a Sram Dual Drive rear hub on my foldup bike, that is a grease packed IGH and when I am not in the middle gear (direct drive) I suspect that I have some additional friction.  If you are not aware of the Dual Drive, it is a three speed hub (much like the older Sturmey Archers) but it can take an 8 or 9 speed cassette, photo attached.

***

I agree with Dan's comments on chainline for resistance.  But I would go further and propose that if you are slightly off on chain line (my Rohloff bike is about 5mm off on chainline) that the chain will wear into that specific line and not be that much of a drag.  But on a derailleur bike where you are chainging (bad pun, sorry) gears frequently, then I think that the friction will be bad. 

***

I agree with Andre, we are talking about small numbers here, not a big deal.

But on my Florida tour this past February I was thinking that the sound of my drive train was pretty bad for a day and I was wishing I had my chain lube in my handlebar bag instead of in the bottom of a pannier.  I suspect I had a high friction drive train for a noisy day.  From now on I plan to keep my chain lube in the handlebar bag on a bike tour so I can use it ANYTIME that the chain gets noisy.

***

I agree with MartinF and Dan on close spaced gears and half step gearing.  On my Pacific Coast trip I tried half step gearing plus granny (eight speed 11/32 cassette, triple with 46/42/24) and it was not that much of an advantage because every time I wanted to shift I had to shift several gears because the grade was constantly changing. 

But, when I did my Florida trip in February, it is exceptionally flat except that the bridge approaches are their equivalent to everyone else's hills.  I do not think I ever used my granny gear.  But since it was flat I only shifted for minor changes in windage and then I wanted to make small adjustments.  I had that same half step gearing on my Sherpa (46/42/24 triple and Sram eight speed 11/32 cassette) and it was great because it was so easy to make small gearing changes.  Second attached photo is my Sherpa half step plus granny gearing.

I like that half step plus granny and eight speed cassette gearing so much that I used that same exact gearing a few months ago when I built up my new Titanium bike.  Last photo is of that bike.


« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 01:19:46 AM by mickeg »

martinf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1167
Re: efficiency of the Rohloff and other internal-gear hubs
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2017, 07:32:24 PM »
I have a Sram Dual Drive rear hub on my foldup bike, that is a grease packed IGH and when I am not in the middle gear (direct drive) I suspect that I have some additional friction.  If you are not aware of the Dual Drive, it is a three speed hub (much like the older Sturmey Archers) but it can take an 8 or 9 speed cassette, photo attached.

I have had two Sram Dual Drive hubs. I replaced the grease with oil, they seemed very efficient.

I try and remember to park oil-lubricated hub-gear bikes leaning to the left - on most models of hub gear the LHS bearing is smaller than the RHS, which allows the oil to pool without leaking too much.

If anyone wants to play with one, I still have a Sram Dual Drive available for the postage.