Author Topic: Is tubeless ready to roll?  (Read 17722 times)

Pavel

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Is tubeless ready to roll?
« on: August 19, 2016, 09:39:29 PM »
I was reading about tubeless advances and have mixed feelings. It seems a great thing, especially for regular riding, but somehow I think that the lack of "do-it-yourself" and the lack of wide adoption in remote areas might be problematic for the traditional, self-suficient, long distance tourer.  Needing a compressor, needing high levels of cleanliness and other details may make tubeless an undesirable choice at this juncture, I think - or is it, in your opinions, worthy of a try?  The advantages do sound quite appealing.

Any thoughts? Has anyone gone this way yet?

Some good info here at Schwalbe -- http://www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/tubeless

mickeg

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Re: Is tubeless ready to roll?
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2016, 10:06:59 PM »
I think I average one flat a year and that is from riding three to five bikes during the year.  Last I heard you have to renew the sealant on occasion.  That would turn me off of the technology if I had to do that much maintenance on several bikes.

And this year I packed up one bike with S&S couplers in the case for air travel, needed to let all air out of the tires for that.  And I would not want any sealant in my wheels on a trip like that.

A friend of mine does a lot of mountain biking, he loves tubeless, but I have never asked him any detailed questions on it.  So, some people see benefits from it.

Last year I did some mountain biking in an area with a lot of thorns (the sharp pointy things, not the brand of bikes) and I used Slime in a couple of inner tubes.  I run presta valves, had trouble getting one valve to seal right.  For that trip I used tubes with removable valve cores.  I think the sealant hardened in the valve and when I broke that seal to add air it did not seal right later.

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Is tubeless ready to roll?
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2016, 10:36:13 PM »

And this year I packed up one bike with S&S couplers in the case for air travel, needed to let all air out of the tires for that.  And I would not want any sealant in my wheels on a trip like that.


The last x2 I have flown ( return trips so x4 flights) I haven't let air out of my tires.
I was only asked once out of the x4 flights if I had deflated my tires.
I answered," Doesn't everyone?".

Thoughts, folks?
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David Simpson

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Re: Is tubeless ready to roll?
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2016, 01:50:03 AM »
The last x2 I have flown ( return trips so x4 flights) I haven't let air out of my tires.
I was only asked once out of the x4 flights if I had deflated my tires.
I answered," Doesn't everyone?".

Thoughts, folks?

Short answer:

No deflation is required, unless your tires are close to the maximum pressure.

Long answer:

The Sheldon Brown site has a comment about deflating tires for flying: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/cycling-myths.html

There are two main points:

1. The cargo hold of a plane is pressurized to the same pressure as the passenger cabin, normally the pressure at 10,000 feet altitude. If you can safely take your bike up a mountain to 10,000 feet elevation, then your bike should be safe in a plane.

2. Atmospheric pressure at sea level is 14.7 psi. In the vacuum of space, the pressure is 0 psi. So if you take your tires into space, it is equivalent to adding an additional 14.7 psi into your tires. As long as your tires can handle that addition 14.7 psi, you should be fine.

This webpage has a chart showing the atmospheric pressure at different altitudes: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-altitude-pressure-d_462.html. At an airliner's cruising altitude (around 40,000 feet), the pressure is 2.7 psi. So if the plane is not pressurized, the relative increase in tire pressure is 12 psi.

- DaveS
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 01:55:44 AM by David Simpson »

mickeg

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Re: Is tubeless ready to roll?
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2016, 02:56:02 AM »

And this year I packed up one bike with S&S couplers in the case for air travel, needed to let all air out of the tires for that.  And I would not want any sealant in my wheels on a trip like that.


The last x2 I have flown ( return trips so x4 flights) I haven't let air out of my tires.
I was only asked once out of the x4 flights if I had deflated my tires.
I answered," Doesn't everyone?".

Thoughts, folks?

I had to deflate the tires because fitting the tires if they were inflated (Marathon Extreme 2.25 or 57mm wide each) when they were packed against the rear dropouts would be much too thick to fit in the 10 inch thick S&S case.  I tried, did not fit.

Danneaux

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Re: Is tubeless ready to roll?
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2016, 05:27:07 AM »
Hi All!

I have actually performed a homegrown tubeless tire conversion on a friend's bike that worked and continues to do so some 7 months later with air loss comparable to or less than that of a conventional tire and innertube setup. While it is not as slick as the commercial rigs, my pal is pleased and sees no need to "pay good money" to get similar results from commercial products.

A DIY effort at going tubeless can be done inexpensively and even successfully, but not without some trial and effort the first go-'round. It gets easier on a second and successive wheel/tire conversions, but is not the relative turnkey effort provided by combining purpose-made components.

Despite this "success", I have decided not to go the (DIY) tubeless route myself for several reasons:

1) By the time the rims were taped and the tires filled to the appropriate/recommended levels with anti-puncture goo (Stan's), there wasn't a lot of weight savings over a conventional innertube and lightweight rim strip, given I tend to prefer fairly light tubes.

2) No matter how little, I don't like the idea of free goo inside the tire cavity or getting on the rim when I demount the tire in the field to fit an emergency tube. I might feel differently if I used disc brakes as on my friend's bike instead of the v-brakes on my Nomad.

3) So far, when traveling in goathead thorn country (i.e. large patches of America's Great Basin desert regions), I've had good luck stopping mid-tour to fit some Mr Tuffy tire liners for the period when I'll be <ahem> amidst thorns instead of just riding one. This has worked well for me and in that relatively brief period of time, I did not suffer from any Mr Tuffy end-caused tube abrasion, though I have seen such punctures happen in long-term use on my late father's bike. When I leave goathead country I stop roadside or in camp, remove and roll up the liners, then remount my tires and go my merry way as before.

4) If the Tuffy liners did not work (so far, so good), I think I would prefer either thicker, "thorn-proof" tubes (which aren't "proof" but are more resistant to puncture), perhaps filled with sealant. However, I am still leery because of the horrible mess caused in the past when a tire sealant was used on my sister's bike. The task fell to me to try and disassemble the lot when a puncture too big to seal occurred. I swear, the tire casing was glued to the tube which was glued to the rim strip and rim and forever after, the spoke nipples were reluctant to turn. Some sealant remained on the rim sides as a stain forever. Thank goodness it was a coaster-brake bike. What a dreadful mess.

5) Based on the homegrown tubeless conversion I made, I think it was potentially more trouble than it was worth. If you reduce the air pressure too much, the results can be (were for me) unpredictable in terms of air loss.

For those interested in a DIY conversion, I'll include some links below, but here is the basic procedure I used:
1) Demount your tires and tubes and rim strips and clean the rims so the surface is smooth and clean of any debris or goo.

2) Using Gorilla Tape (a sort of duct tape with more tenacious adhesive), cut a *roll* to width. By "Cut to width" I mean a width that allows the tape to cover from crochet (rim bead hook base at the inner sidewall to rim bead hook base at the inner sidewall  *including* the extra length needed to drop fully into the rim well. It is very easy to go wrong with the registration of the tape on the rim between the bead seats, and Gorilla Tape can be difficult to re-seat.

3) This taping is the most critical part, because it not only helps seat the tire to allow inflation without a compressor, it prevents leaks and aids tire retention. It can also make it *very* difficult to dis/mount a tire. The procedure here is to start the wrap and go all the way 'round, overlapping the ends and covering the valve hole. What is Unknown until you try it several times (because actual tires vary in bead-seat diameter as a result of production tolerances, age, and de/mounting/stretch) is how many wraps are needed. I ended up redoing the rear rim twice (so 3x total) and the front was good the first time.

I'll make the point again, because it may not be obvious to a first-timer: The layers of tape are intended to overlap the rim at the tire's bead-seating area, unlike many conventional rim tapes. This makes the rim effectively larger at the bead seat and a better seal against the tire bead. Get it right and you can (re)inflate the tire with a hand pump and it will retain air for a long time. Get it too small in diameter, and the tire will leak air and might not even seat well enough with a compressor to retain air. Get it too large and you can fold a tire lever trying to get the bead seated or removed from the rim. This is why the redos on the friend's rear rim -- the rim was either a wee bit small or the tire was a wee big big, or both. Once I got it right, it worked perfectly, but it took me trial and error to get there and I would expect to adjust the wraps of Gorilla Tape if the tire is replaced with another example.

This all works better if your tire has not been cast in a radial-sectional mold, which leaved little ribs across the bead that can cause small air leaks. With care, those bits of rubber flash can be trimmed using the scissors from a small (Classic) Victorinox Swiss Army Knife, but it is far better if circumferential molds have been used; they leave a smooth bead.

4) Cut a hole in the tape over the valve hole and install a proper, commercial valve intended for tubeless installations. Homemade versions will not work well here, and in any case you will need a two-piece valve that can be disassembled to pour in the sealant.

5) It takes some bouncing of the barely inflated tired to seat the beads and some roll-out to finish the job, then some fairly frantic pumping to finally seat the beads. I don't really know how better to describe the process, but assuming you've laid down the correct number of tape layers for your tire and rim combination, it goes pretty smoothly and would allow for field installation of an innertube in case of punctures too large or too numerous for the sealant to plug or if you want to get going quickly without applying a patch to the inner tire casing. All that said, I had some trouble with the first (rear) rim getting the tire bead to seat evenly, so that alone required several tries in addition to the re-wraps of (fresh) Gorilla Tape. The front rim again presented no trouble and all went fine in one go.

6) Assuming you got everything right, you now have a workable DIY tubeless tire setup.

I expect that with time and temperature, the Gorilla Tape will become very difficult to remove cleanly even with a heat gun and considerable effort with solvent. It makes it impossible to get to the spoke nipples, but with great care (and a good deal of frustration), a spoke can still be replaced while the tape is intact by reusing the original nipple, though getting it out far enough to catch threads can require considerable patience because the nipple top wants to stick to the sticky underside of the Gorilla Tape above it.

Further, I expect the tape's adhesive could become less effective with time and water entry through the spoke nipples onto the adhesive layer, causing air leaks and the need for a redo.

Now, the promised links:

A custom Google search for DIY tubeless, in case you wish to give it a try:
https://www.google.com/#q=make+your+own+tubeless+bike+tires
A guide that hews closely to what I did:
https://www.ridemorebikes.com/mtb-tubeless-conversion-guide/
A video showing a Stan's No Tubes kit...other methods will show in the sidebar on the right side of your screen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH1O2W7E_wQ

Hope this helps. The DIY approach is inexpensive and can make for an interesting afternoon's project. Short-term results depend mostly on patience and devotion to task, while long-term results are unknown.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 02:52:47 PM by Danneaux »

Andre Jute

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Re: Is tubeless ready to roll?
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2016, 10:10:37 AM »
I read that with considerable schadenfreude, Dan. Better you than me. Tubeless tyres surely can't be worth that much mess, effort and installation uncertainty. Thanks for saving me the time and expense (Gorilla tape and glue is very pricey here.)

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Is tubeless ready to roll?
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2016, 12:09:56 PM »

And this year I packed up one bike with S&S couplers in the case for air travel, needed to let all air out of the tires for that.  And I would not want any sealant in my wheels on a trip like that.


The last x2 I have flown ( return trips so x4 flights) I haven't let air out of my tires.
I was only asked once out of the x4 flights if I had deflated my tires.
I answered," Doesn't everyone?".

Thoughts, folks?

I had to deflate the tires because fitting the tires if they were inflated (Marathon Extreme 2.25 or 57mm wide each) when they were packed against the rear dropouts would be much too thick to fit in the 10 inch thick S&S case.  I tried, did not fit.

Thanks Muck. I had suspected as much .

Strange how airline staff still continue to ask for deflation.
Never drink and drive. You may hit a bump  and spill your drink

mickeg

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Re: Is tubeless ready to roll?
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2016, 12:55:05 PM »
Several years ago I had a slow leak on a tube.  Changed the tube, after a few bike rides, the replacement tube developed a slow leak too.  I never could find what was causing the punctures, there apparantly was some sharp object in the tire.  I took one of the leaky tubes and, cut a slit in it lengthwise where the tube had gone on the rim tape, cut out the valve stem, and used that as a tire liner.  I never had another problem with that tire causing punctures.  It was not a very good tire liner and would probably be ineffective against thorns, but it was good enough.

...
4) If the Tuffy liners did not work (so far, so good), I think I would prefer either thicker, "thorn-proof" tubes (which aren't "proof" but are more resistant to puncture), perhaps filled with sealant. However, I am still leery because  ...

My mountain biking trip I did last summer in North Dakota was in an area known for thorns (the sharp pointy kind).  I used my Nomad Mk II on that trip.  I bought one thorn resistant tube which I put on the rear and used a normal tube on the front.  Put Slime in both tubes.

One day while stopped to check the map and take a short break, I suddenly heard air rushing out of a tube.  And, it was my bike, not my friends bike.  Tire went flat in only a couple minutes.  It was the thorn resistant tube on the rear wheel.  Upon removing the tube from the wheel, I found that tube was not uniformly thick (the thickness of the rubber is what makes it thorn resistant) but the rubber was much thinner adjacent to the valve stem.  And the valve stem had separated from the rubber.  Since the sealant was coating the portion of the tube where centrifugal force had moved the sealant too, there was insufficient sealant to seal the tube failure at the valve stem/rubber interface where the leak had developed.

My spare tube was not filled with Slime, as I was confident that I would not have any tube failures.  So I tried to avoid putting my tires in any places where I might puncture for the rest of the day and was successful.  To keep this story reasonably short, I did not put Slime in my rear wheel for the rest of the trip and had no incident.

So, the only tube failure I had was the stupid thorn resistant tube.  It is very possible that if I had not invested in that tube, that I might have had no flats at all.  I have no plans to ever buy another one.

Danneaux

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Re: Is tubeless ready to roll?
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2016, 04:17:55 PM »
Quote
Gorilla tape and glue is very pricey here...
For reference, about USD$15 for a roll 1-7/8in x 35 yards here, so a bit more economical on this side of the Pond. A single roll is good for several wheels, depending on overlap required and re-does.

All the best,

Dan.

Pavel

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Re: Is tubeless ready to roll?
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2016, 04:40:41 PM »
thanks .. one and all.  Good points to consider, and my own (curmudgeonly, old cynical man) perspective, was that this looked like a fun thing to keep one in the circle of bleeding bicycle green (hey it's our righteous duty) but likely too much fuss on a long trip, far from home.

I am however disappointed by all you like thinking old over-experienced, nay-saying buzzards. I wanted not only to be shown wrong, but in fact to be "shown the light". With no sublime new technology, no magic bullet, nothing at all to aspire to - it's just my old, feeble knees that are the motivational problem. Thanks a lot!  Real friends would have lied. Looking right at you Dan, and Andre.

Danneaux

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Re: Is tubeless ready to roll?
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2016, 04:52:46 PM »
Quote
Real friends would have lied. Looking right at you Dan, and Andre.
Au contraire, Mon Ami!

Remember, my caveats and description above are for a DIY tubeless conversion. The commercial products are pretty much turnkey with rim strips  replacing the fussing with tape, working with tires and rims in an engineered Systems approach. Much more successful, infinitely less fuss for the average installer and certainly so in practice.

With everything prepackaged, life is much simpler.

So, you can stimulate the economy in good heart.  ;)

All the best,

Dan.

Andre Jute

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Re: Is tubeless ready to roll?
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2016, 12:30:31 AM »
Quote
Real friends would have lied. Looking right at you Dan, and Andre.
Au contraire, Mon Ami!

+1.

Real friends don't let you waste time and money reinventing square wheels.

mickeg

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Re: Is tubeless ready to roll?
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2016, 03:06:13 AM »
...
Strange how airline staff still continue to ask for deflation.

Lots of rules against carrying compressed gasses in unapproved containers on aircraft.  Especially if the container is not labeled with the type of gas in it.  And, I just described an inflated tire. 

So, sometimes airline personnel get a little carried away on the rules and I don't argue.

David Simpson

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Re: Is tubeless ready to roll?
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2016, 05:48:46 AM »
Lots of rules against carrying compressed gasses in unapproved containers on aircraft.  Especially if the container is not labeled with the type of gas in it.  And, I just described an inflated tire.

You also just described me after spicy food. However, in my case the airline rule makes sense, for the safety and comfort of the other passengers.  :)

- DaveS