Hello again, and what else ... questions.

[Pavel]

Hello.  After a few years or critically bad health, I've spent the last four months or so bouncing back. Now I'm back on two wheels. Two wheel? Yeah, a motorcycle mostly and just lately the Thorn as well, again. The 12 year old that accompanied me on our bike trip is now 16 and has grown is so many ways.  She has just returned from the second of two trips to Europe, seeing for the first time, Greece, Italy, Germany and Holland. Yup, she's grown, and moved on.  As it was then, it is the same now, where part of my motivation for both sets of "two wheel" travel is to try to spark a fire in my daughter. The Ninja I bought a few months ago is destined for her in eight months as a 17th birthday present and now as I ride the Raven Sports tour again, I'm also plotting a broader two wheel strategy to try to get her interested in bicycle touring again.  The continental divide whispers, though as of yet, she does not seem to hear.  Hey, what are dads for, right? Secretly I'm hoping more for the Thorny route versus the Kawasaki way.

So on the bicycle side of things, I've got a number of choices.  My only dislike of my two thorns is that the steering is too quick for my tastes, even with appropriate loads and much too responsive with light loads.  My first though was to get a bike like the the Club Tour for myself and then a frame for her. My first question then is - has anyone got direct experience with both the Raven or Nomad AND the club tour?  What is the handling like?  Is it similar or vastly different with regards to what I think of as "hands free" drive-ability? Riding the Nomad or Raven "no hands" is a good idea if one is weary of life. I'm not. But I DO want that kind of feel? Will the Club tour provide ... or should I move on, away from my Brand of cycling religion? Am I looking for "low Trail" or "very high trail, do you think? I only care about low speed ( 8-16) mph ride quality - once I hit 25 mph downhill speeds I reach for the brakes. Any thoughts ... any advice? My two thorns aren't cutting it in this one aspect.

One thing I have considered doing is converting my Nomad to 650b wheels. Has anyone done this and if so, what are your thoughts?  That is one reason I'm eager for the new Nomad front disk fork. Where is it, already?? I wonder how that will change steering as it changes the trail to a lower value?

My other question is about my only other disapoinment with the set of choice provided by Thorn.  Gates drive.  I want it. I don't care for the supposed down-side of less reliability.  I cycle in Merika - and who cares if I have to hole up in an air-conditioned hotel for a few days waiting for a belt, or having to cary a twelve ounce spare.  But the choice is not on offer, so .... has anyone had their bike modified to handle a belt drive?  I've found someone states-side who will do the deed for only ~ $100 usd but the re-paint will be many times more.  Here is to ugly, I say, in that case.  But I thought I'd float the idea out there to see if there is some peril, outside the reputed "less bullet proof" old wives tale that I have not thought of.  Are there any horible aspects to the surgery? BTW, I met two couples while on the Trans-America tour, both sets running gates drive belts for thousands of miles, who all looked at me as if I was nuts when I asked them if they had any problems. I think it is a concept (like fatter tires and lower pressure) whose time has come. Andy ... are you listening?

So now that two years of toxic Chemo, where at times I thought I was a grilled-cheese sandwich,   and one year recovering from an analogous stem cell transplant, where someone's breath could kill me - are behind me - I'm looking to get back into the two wheel mode again, and experiment a bit. I want belt drive, and I think I want 650b wheels. Will it work? Give me some ideas, and stay tuned. 

[in4]

Welcome back and such a wonderfully, positive entrance too. After such a torrid time your desire to get back on the bike transcends the limitations of the written word. 

I believe I'm correct in saying that there is a disc fork allegedly on the way; you're not the first to mention it this week. Re the belt drive: I've not heard a thing about one being available on a Thorn. Perhaps that is on the CAD system at Thorn Towers too. I know other bike makers support their use. Sarah Outen whizzed across central asia using one, seemingly without any issues. http://www.sarahouten.com/
I did read a review of a UK manufacturer's belt drive rohloff feeling rather sluggish. Chimera perhaps?

Regardless, I can see it now: Thorn Nomad, discs front and rear, s&s couplings and a gates belt drive with sprockets that last forever. 

Glad you are back in the saddle and all good wished for continuing good health.

[mickeg]

I have never ridden a Raven.  But if the Raven and Sherpa ride about the same, I can say that my Sherpa and Nomad appear to have steering that is comparably quick.  But, I often have a handlebar bag on the bike, that may affect the steering enough that my opinion might be less reliable than others.

I think a longer trail makes the steering less responsive.  Thus, you might be looking for longer trail fork.  But my level of knowledge on frame geometry is not very high, others should be consulted on this topic.

This link below is an old thread, but there is some discussion here of using rim brakes on larger diameter rims in a frame for 26 inch wheels.  You might be able to find some obscure V brakes that would allow a V brake to work on a 650b wheel of you search hard enough.
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11511.msg83572#msg83572

I have no clue if this would work, but it might allow a 650b rim in a frame designed for 26 inch wheels.  I did a quick search based in part on what I saw in the thread above to locate this item.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Taiwan-made-Patent-Alloy-V-Brake-For-20-406-451-26-and-700C-Rim-Black-/141415320899?hash=item20ed028d43:g:fwgAAOxyaFtR540b

Belt drive, I am content with chains. 

When I was in Iceland, I saw two people with belt drive Rohloffs.  One said they were carrying a spare belt since belts were not available in Iceland.  The other had the older style belt and he said that he had heard that the newer belt design was much more sensitive for chainline (or would that be belt-line?).  But I am repeating that third hand, so you should research that.  He also said that he thought that the belt had more friction than chains. 

But he said that he liked the ability to throw some water on the belt to clean it.  When I got back from my tour, my chain was so ugly with dirt that I put it in the metal recycle bin instead of attempting to clean it.  That is one advantage of buying the cheapest chains you can find, I would hate to discard a chain that had some life left on it if I had paid much for it.  But a cheap chain that was really dirty, I was happy to discard it instead of spend time to clean it.  This topic (cleaning it) however is one that probably favors belts over chains.

[Danneaux]

Hi again, Pavel!

Nice to see you back here and in a healthier state; I remember from our correspondence how long you've engaged in this battle, and I'm so delighted to see you on the road to recovery.

As for your questions, several Forum links may prove helpful:
On trail, fork, and tire selection affecting bicycle handling, see:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4245.msg19567#msg19567
On 650B wheels, see the topic starting here:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=3893.msg17072#msg17072
In my calculations, 26x2.0 Schwalbe Duremes are within about 1.0mm of the same OD as a 38mmx650B Grand Bois Lierre tire. 38mm is about 1.5in. Dashing out to the garage to look at my own Nomad, I see it looks like there is plenty of room between my present 26x2.0 Duremes and the chainstay and seatstay bridges and between the stays to fit a 650Bx42mm Grand Bois Hetre, one of the sweetest-running 650B tires you can find. 42mm is 1.65in in width.

...has anyone had their bike modified to handle a belt drive?

You're not the first to ask here, Pavel. For a very similar quest, see: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=3329.msg16743#msg16743
Related topic:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4397.0

Belt drives are well-discussed in the Forum archives and worth a read. Enter the search string "belt drive" (no quotes) for results.

Of course, modifying your Nomad will void the Thorn frame warranty and so far as I know, Thorn is still opposed to the use of belt-drive for a variety of reasons.

As with any belt drive conversion, frame alignment and frame stiffness are critical. You *might* need to use a belt follower (snubber) to keep the belt engaged at lower tensions *if* you don't use a center-track belt and drive pulley design (and maybe even then, depending on a variety of factors). The Nomad's 19mm seatstays are certainly robust and stiff, which would be in your favor. Aftermarket seatstay splitters vary in design, effectiveness, stiffness, and longevity. Some are Not Very Good while others are fine. S&S make one that matches their frame couplers in miniature. Other designs tend to be of the stepped-overlap variety, held with everything from one to two 5-6mm allenhead machine screws; I've seen some that used chainstay peg bolts and sleeve nuts. One (offered by Ceeway for smaller 16mm stays) is an inlaid keyway design: http://www.ceeway.com/acrobat%20files/Belt%20Drive%20Coupler.pdf The best design I've seen to date is Avaghon's overlapped Rohloff OEM dropout sliders, but this would not be compatible with anything but an original fitment or Rohloff OEM replacement.

One key thing to keep in mind wrt to belt drives and IGH hubs: Where chains can and should run slack, belts must be under tension, and this tension loads the hub and crank bearings. There can be quite a lot of tension; depending on application and pedaling style, Gates recommends 28-53lbs of tension. Remember, IGH drivetrain chains typically run with 10-12mm of slack. Belt-drive pulleys need to be aligned to reduce tight spots to a minimum. Ideally, the drive-side bearings should have either more robust bearings or extra bearing sets to compensate for belt tension, but this is rarely the case. This is why Rohloff are very careful to warn of how tension limits affect hub longevity. I "know a guy" (he contacted me and correspondence followed) who ran his belt at too-high tension and suffered premature bearing wear on his Rohloff hub and needed the drive-side bearings replaced earlier than expected. This was plainly user error; the solution is to use the Gates tension tool (belt ruler or Krikit Tension Tester or download their app, which "listens" for the sound of a properly tensioned belt when it is "plucked" like a guitar string. 

Rohloff's cautions are here:
https://www.rohloff.de/en/technology/gates-carbon-drive/index.html
Rohloff FAQ entry here:
https://www.rohloff.de/en/service/faqs/index.html#jfmulticontent_c9449-5
Gates Carbon Drive owner's manual here:
http://www.g-boxx.com/pdf/Gates-Rohloff-manual-en.pdf
Gates Carbon Drive FAQs:
http://www.gatescarbondrive.com/products/faqs#faqId=%7b8CBEA3F7-F55D-487D-9437-7503117CBA3E%7d
Gates overview:
http://www.gatescarbondrive.com/products/overview

There's a lot to think about with a belt-drive conversion, more than with an OEM fitment, where the problems have all been handled in advance of purchase. It can surely be done, but requires some care in the execution.

All the best,

Dan.

[mickeg]

Dan, when you said this:

... Belt-drive pulleys need to be aligned to reduce tight spots to a minimum. ...

it reminded me that when I change chain rings on my Nomad, that there is enough slop (or play) between the crank arms and the chain ring that my chain ring often is not perfectly concentric with the bottom bracket center.  Thus, as you turn the crank, the chain will tighten and loosen.  If it is significant, I try to adjust it to be concentric, which is an iterative process of loosening and tightening the chainring bolts, while I try to shift things around.

I wonder if this would be problematic with a belt?

I use different chainrings for travel than I use for around home riding, so it is not unusual for me to change chainrings a couple times a year, whereas I suspect most Rohoff owners do not loosen the chainring bolts for years at a time.

[Pavel]

Ahh, it's good to be back here. I knew I'd get a link or two, an idea or two ... to follow. Thanks everyone for the inputs, I shall now be busy the whole week reading the provided links. Information; friendly, helpful information - that is why this forum is the best.

Just to add a few details more, I wen't bike (s)hopping yesterday. I test rode six bikes, five Surlys and one Soma. It was enlightening on several fronts and has changed some of my intent. The most notable lesson learned yesterday was that in what I'm looking for, the Thorns (sadly for me) are about as good as it gets in the sort of bike style I'm willing to live with.  I'm not willing to live with a bike like the Surly Pacer with NO ability to mount neither front nor rear racks. I rode that one last on a whim and instantly liked the ride best. What a great single focus bike -and premier than any photo can illustrate. But my balance is not very good anymore, and so carrying my luggage on my head is out - and so thus is the Pacer. Why is life like that?

I'd ridden the LHT loaded before and though it a decent but "dead" sort of ride. Riding it unloaded made me think that ride was flat and dead feeling exactly the same. And the size 58, my size, made me appreciate the sloping top-tube concept. I'm too shy to say why. Strike the LHT for all time.

The Surly Ogre was next.  I can see the possibilities in that ride. The thing is a very well executed 29 concept for riding on grass and rough dirt (don't know about single track) and the swept back Jones Loop bars have given me some ideas for my Thorns (may fix what ails me - but $140 bucks - wtf? ). It was a complete compromise on asphalt, however.  I was all over the road like a drunk. Part of that were the knobies and part the geometry, but it is obvious to me that a touring bike it is just too much honed to a type of riding that I'd love to try, but here where I live I'd have to car the bike to it's habitat. Not my style.  Why can't I be living in the South West? There the Ogre would be a wonderful choice, though I think I'd prefer the 27+ or 650B option on a bike of this sort, rather than the 29 wheel size. I consider the 650B to be the goldilocks approach.

The bike I was interested in most was the Soma Fab Wolverine. It shows that one can not pick a bike from specs any better than on could pick a wife that way. The Wolverine was sooo perfect, I thought, from my computer seat. It has everything I want in a do-it-all bike and for less than 600 bucks I could also have a built in Belt drive Rohloff option for later. That is cheaper than modifying the Raven Sports tour for gates and re-painting it. But it's do it all nature, in being able to do off road made it the most skittish bike of all of them - and REALLY made me appreciate how much of a great ride the dang Raven is. Again; why does life have to be like that ... when I happen to have $600 bucks! (won't last long in my wallet though )

So now I'm rethinking completely my strategy.  I have an expedition bike in the Nomad, but no expeditions over the horizon.  I'm not sure I've even got that in me anymore, though that can change on a dime.  As we speak (type I mean) the Nomad has 700cm wheels, shod with 37cm tires and room for fenders mounted on it, while the Raven has the Nomads wheels and hub. What the Nomad does not have of course - are breaks. Lousy break, that, eh? But the ride with these 700 wheels is so much closer to what I want the Nomad to feel like with less than a full load, that it really makes me optimistic about this new Disk Fork (where art thou?) and going, later, with a 650b setup with tyres about 2 inches wide. Swept back bars will take care of my other mild dissatisfaction and that bike my perfect companion. True love ... forever.

But one love per lifetime is, of course, never enough! I find that next to my Nomad the Raven may be to too similar in personality  - so plans for another mistress continue. A sleek, Pacer like, swift, steel, steed?  A mountain bike fit for Rohloff the second?  So many temptations and so many provided links to follow and digest.  

Just thinking out loud here. That seems to be half the fun, is it not? Thanks for the input and ideas.  Too bad one can't get fitter just based on searching and dreaming.

[Pavel]

Oh and the Club Tour is so much now a bike that might be in the cards. Much more likely now than before yesterdays experiments with Surly. The Surly's are great in that the hype and the prices has almost carried forward a small revolution here in the states, I believe.  But man oh man ... the mind spins on the idea of "what if", "what if the Thorns were available here stateside so more people could partake?" As of yesterday I'm of the opinion that the Thorns are "the finest expample of ... ", well read Andy's blurbs in the Great Catalogues of temptations - even if he did blaspheme with disk brakes. It's kind of like pork - not bad once you try it and get used to the notion. And they do stop fast. 

[Danneaux]

Dan, when you said this:

Quote from: Danneaux on August 10, 2016, 11:11:39 PM
... Belt-drive pulleys need to be aligned to reduce tight spots to a minimum. ...
...I wonder if this would be problematic with a belt?

<nods> Apparently very much so because the system cannot run slack or the belt will jump Similarly, the belt cannot be too tight or it will be overly snug in places, and so apply additional load to the belt and drive components. The belt tension should be pretty constant, without tight spots or with tight spots minimized, which requires the "chainring" bolts be loosened and the 'ring centralized. The job would only need to be done once unless the "gearing" was changed by fitting a different or replacement "chainring" pulley.

In a separate category...

Careful reading of the Gates manual (page 9-14) indicates the belt needs to be retensioned following removal using the eccentric BB or moving the hub in ramped dropouts/sliding drops. Disc calipers might need readjustment as well. A belt drive would add a bit of time to puncture repairs.

Best,

Dan.

[Pavel]

Dan; I've been reading and enjoying your "Trail guide" and it agrees with what I've been able to distill from both my personal observations and the contradictory internet voices. The writing is so good that it is so far the best summation I've ever been exposed to.  Much thanks!
( http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4245.msg19567#msg19567 )

No factor however lives unrelated to other resultant factors and I find it interesting that, while I'm sure that the medicine for what ails my bike handling preferences is to go to "low trail" french style geometry, in mounting 700cm wheels on my Nomad and finding it MORE rather than less satisfying, I would then conclude that the larger wheels "fly-wheel" effect, or the centripetal  (or is it Centrifugal - I always get mixed up now) effect is what I'm feeling, making up for the act of going the wrong way on my Trail.  

I guess the fatter tires, vs skinnier tires are also involved.  Perhaps it is time for me to move onto a 29" machine, rather than a 27+?  (why do they have to confound us so, with the arbitrary nomenclature? )

[mickeg]

Emphasis added:

...I find that next to my Nomad the Raven may be to too similar in personality  - so plans for another mistress continue. A sleek, Pacer like, swift, steel, steed?  A mountain bike fit for Rohloff the second?  So many temptations and so many provided links to follow and digest.  
...

Or, if your Nomad is a later model that can take a suspension fork?  See photo.

[JimK]

Great to see that you are back on the saddle, Pavel!

[Pavel]

Mick ... my Nomad is indeed a suspension fork compatible version, and a few times I've had sus forks in baskets ready to buy.  In each case I paused due to my awareness of how little I know of that side of cycling. Thinking I should take more time to do research has always been the source of the idea fizzling out.  My view is that in order to buy a good quality product at a wise price, I better learn more first.  But it is a whole world unto itself!  I have had only one bike with a suspension, a Fuji mountain bike bought back in ~93 and it came with a suspension fork that was more properly described as a pogo-stick.  Horrible, it was.

Plus I marvel how people can go for weeks at a time bike-packing, the way they do now, without panniers.  I always think there is a support vehicle just out of the frame.   I don't think I could do it, taking the hammock stuff as well as a fall back tent and the other things I like to take for comfort.  I don't travel with a lot of weight but I do need a fair bit of volume.

So the mountain bike I was thinking of would be something like the Soma B-side, but with a steel front fork. ( http://www.somafab.com/archives/product/b-side-v-3-27-5-650b)

That it seems would open up my horizons and experience and maybe go a little fatter at the same time with the tires. Or can the Nomad do trails, set up as it is without a sus-fork?  Hmmm.  I wonder how it would fare?

About your setup.  Which fork did you go with?  Is it a 100mm, or some other size?  I'm also really curious about your views  on how it handles and if it is significantly a different experience with the sus-fork.  Do you go on any long trips like that? I guess I then could set the Raven for touring and convert the Nomad to a sus-fork adventurer.  Another about face!   My mind swims with all the choices and the lack of more understanding.

[Pavel]

Thanks Jim. I got back in the saddle in spring, when I was fist able to. It was a happy co-incidence that the Raven sport tour arrived at that same time.  New gear sure makes the heart fonder and legs stouter.  Then i had a bit of a health set-back and so now I'm not quite yet in the saddle, but more like in the computer chair, planning and plotting on how "best" to get back on that Brooks and where to aim that front wheel.

On of the bumps on my road to recovery has left me with a small heart problem, the impact of which now is unknown, thus far, on my long distance cycling desires.  It's getting better but for the next year, or maybe half a year,  I don't really know with confidence if my two wheel adventures shall be self power or motorized by necessity. Both options have their allure, but in truth the bicycle stirs me more.  It is odd that a short bicycle trip with a bit of scenery, fresh air and sweat is sweet, but a long tour with more of each of those, and a LOT more sweat is sweeter still.  My wife just does not understand that.  I suspect that many here - do.

So I sit, learn, plan and hope. 

[mickeg]

Mick ... my Nomad is indeed a suspension fork compatible version, and a few times I've had sus forks in baskets ready to buy.  In each case I paused due to my awareness of how little I know of that side of cycling. Thinking I should take more time to do research has always been the source of the idea fizzling out.  My view is that in order to buy a good quality product at a wise price, I better learn more first.  ...
...
About your setup.  Which fork did you go with?  Is it a 100mm, or some other size?  I'm also really curious about your views  on how it handles and if it is significantly a different experience with the sus-fork.  Do you go on any long trips like that? I guess I then could set the Raven for touring and convert the Nomad to a sus-fork adventurer.  Another about face!   My mind swims with all the choices and the lack of more understanding.

A friend of mine organized a mountain bike trip, a total of 10 of us in Canyonlands National Park, Utah, USA.  Four days, most of which was the White Rim trail which is a 4X4 road.  I do not have a suspension mountain bike, but I decided I would rather get a fork for the Nomad than rent a bike.  The other 9 people used full suspension mountain bikes.  Someone on this forum (I do not recall who) had a RockShox fork, maybe a recon model?  I communicated some with him on forks.  I was leaning towards something like that or maybe a step down to the XC32 model.  But, I saw a RockShox XC28 which is a cheaper 100mm model show up on Ebay for absurdly cheap price.  I put in a low bid and got it for something like $65 USD including shipping, new but some shop wear on it.  I bought a new headset race for it and installed that, and put it on the bike.  And I needed a new star nut too.  I wanted to set up both forks so I could easily switch the forks back and forth.

Also put on a cheap used suspension seatpost.  Not having rear suspension, the others in the group were definitely faster than me on the tougher terrain.  The attached photos are from that trip.

I am not a mountain biker so I really can't comment on how it compares to a mountain bike. 

Then last summer a friend of mine and I did a trip in North Dakota, USA, the photo in my previous post is from that trip.  I again put the suspension fork on for that trip too.  I documented that trip at this forum posting, skip half way down to the posting that starts out with the word UPDATE in bold text.
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11321.0

Since I have rim brakes and the hub on my front wheel is not disc ready, I wanted to stay with rim brakes, it is hard to find new suspension forks now that have rim brakes unless it is such a cheap fork that you probably would not want it.  Also, I found it hard to find a fork that had a long enough steerer tube.  Virtually all the used forks had steerer tubes cut much shorter than I needed. 

I have not toured with the suspension fork, have no plans to do so.  Regarding handling with the rigid fork while touring, the roughest I have been in was in Iceland, see this thread.
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11917.0

I recently switched my shifter to the end of the drop bar, it was located in a different spot.  This change was so that I could steer with both hands AND also have one hand on the shifter at the same time.  That was a problem mountain biking and touring on rough gravel with my previous setup.

I am keeping my Nomad and my Sherpa, different bikes for different kinds of trips, the Nomad for the rougher trips, if I do a trip that is all on pavement and I won't need the S&S couplers, then I will probably use the Sherpa.  I have several other bikes for other purposes too.

[Danneaux]

As we speak (type I mean) the Nomad has 700cm wheels, shod with 37cm tires and room for fenders mounted on it...

Pavel, I can't begin to tell you how much I'd like to see a photo of your Nomad in this configuration. If you have the camera handy...? 

I'll bet stops are...exciting. I remember similar setups as a kid, and the toll they took on my shoe-sole brakes.

Best,

Dan.