Author Topic: Scott SUB 10 belt drive  (Read 19534 times)

energyman

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Scott SUB 10 belt drive
« on: July 13, 2012, 04:15:43 pm »
Anyone with an opinion of the above, better still anyone ridden one ?

Danneaux

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Re: Scott SUB 10 belt drive
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2012, 05:03:17 pm »
Hi Chris!

Some real-world, user reviews on it are available here:
http://www.rei.com/product/828257/scott-sub-10-bike-2012

Unfortunately, only four reviews on this one in the database at present, but the Sub-10 was generally well-reviewed, with some cogent criticisms for things that might -- or might not -- be important, depending on intended use and personal preference.

I tend to look at REI's reviews first, even if I don't intend making a purchase there. Because of their 100% satisfaction guarantee (like MEC and some other firms, especilly co-ops and buying clubs), the reviews tend to be a bit more realistic and balanced than elsewhere. In this case, I looked at the Sub 10 myself just yesterday afternoon (curious, and the bike section of any store draws me like iron filings to a magnet). Having looked at it and played with it on the showroom floor, I'd say these reviews give a reasonable, balanced view overall.

I would have loved to have ridden it for a lark, but that wasn't possible.

Hope this helps.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 06:14:45 pm by Danneaux »

Andre Jute

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Re: Scott SUB 10 belt drive
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2012, 05:25:18 pm »
Looks like the Gates belt drive is heading for everyday use at a premium over a chain that is bound to fall as the Gates volume increases and consequently the unit cost is driven down.

Can't say I'm impressed with the design of the single-bolt split on the Scott seatstay. Am I missing something or is that all there is? It may look "cool" and simple when new but a few hundred miles of jiggling will soon produce a bit of play, and then more.

Andre Jute

Danneaux

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Re: Scott SUB 10 belt drive
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2012, 05:57:53 pm »
Quote
...the single-bolt split on the Scott seatstay. Am I missing something or is that all there is?
Nope, Andre, that's all there is, from what I could see of it. My thoughts exactly. Sure looks clean and spiff now, but what about later?

A few years back, American publication Bicycling magazine used USD$1,000 as the marker point for an "entry-level bicycle". I would argue it is, in fact, considerably lower when one considers the huge volume of USD$199 pseudo-"Schwinns" sold by Wal-Mart. Still, the Sub-10 is at the lower end of things for a Gates belt-drive bike, as you've observed. I think they'll become more common at lowish price-points.

If this is the case, perhaps the manufacturer doesn't intend the frame to last forever. "Long enough" may be the goal here as with many similar designs. Also yesterday, I was in a LBS and overheard the employee cautioning a buyer that "carbon bikes really only last about 4 years". FOUR YEARS for an expected bicycle frame lifespan?!? Steel is, indeed, real in comparison. My 1970 Raleigh Gran Sports still looks and rides fresh, as does Dad's 1938 Hercules. There may be something to that employee's statement when real-word users get 'hold of carbon bikes. As I was walking out the door, a nice little Subie WRX STi ProRally-lookalike pulled up with a Yakima rack and *two* carbon bikes. The owner had fitted light alu racks to each, using unpadded P-clamps on the seatstays. Bikes and cars both do it for me, so after he entered the store, curiosity got the best of me and I drifted over for a look. The carbon clear-coat around each clamp looked frosty, and I'm guessing the clamps had damaged at least the outer layers of the carbon roving, beneath the clear-coat.  Yikes. The clock has already started ticking on those two.

I feel I'm seeing more deliberate temporal dependency in cycling designs -- moving closer and closer to the 18-month designed product life we're seeing in cell phones, cameras, and other high-tech consumer goods. If that is true, then it would account for such things as single clamping bolts on frame-breaks designed for belt access. Sure, it won't last as long, but does it have to (from the mfr's point of view)? Consumers seem to be getting used to the idea of non-durable but still expensive high-tech goods, especially those that are fashion-driven. I know people who traded in their perfectly good black iPhones when the white ones became available, and took a big contract hit to do so (our cell phones here in 'Merka are subsidized by the carrier contracts, rather than purchased outright...unless consumers choose differently and pay out-of-pocket and unlock a phone to put on their contract). They wanted to be different...just like everyone else...and then they weren't different anymore when everyone got a white one. Wait till Apple introduces the...red one.

Apropos nothing much, I guess, but we're beginning to see a fall-off in another durable good hereabouts, the tattoo. They surely last awhile and for a bit they were the hot thing among the young-and-trendy and those who thought they were or wanted to be. Well, now they've become hot among the crowd at the senior-centers, they aren't so cool anymore for the twentysomethings. When Gramma puts a harsh on your Edgy, it ain't so great, and the fastest growing demographic at the removal clinics is...you guessed it...twentysomethings. What's the old design-school saying? "Nothing says Yesterday like something designed for Tomorrow".

Best,

Dan.

JWestland

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Re: Scott SUB 10 belt drive
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2012, 07:25:15 pm »
In the UK (at least) Charge Bikes does hub geared models made from steel drilled from luggage racks including mud guards. I got one of their bikes, nice clean design, Tange welded frames of good quality and they are well put together. Hmmmmm good Tektro brakes...hmmm

Charge Tap is much cheaper at £699 and also has an Alfine 8. No disc brakes though. Giant does an Alfine 8 model at £899. Charge Mixer is £1199 so that's not going to help price wise, but it has an Alfine 11 (and disc brakes again). Giant is available everywhere.
I am less knowledgeable on mountain bikes, but there's harder to find hub geared ones too.

So I guess the real question to me would be: How much are you willing to spend extra for a belt drive?


Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)

triaesthete

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Re: Scott SUB 10 belt drive
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2012, 09:35:26 pm »
Have a look at the latest update on the Thorn "Living with a Rohloff" PDF. Andy B has added a good deal about belts on page 16. All of it makes sense as ever.

If your need/expect/accept: low maintenance, low cleaning, shop service, higher cost per mile, lower efficiency  they might be for you.

I notice the following in some popular German motorcycles that have had belt drive for the last 10 years or so:
belt pulley sets have to be bigger diameters than chain sprocket sets for similar power outputs
belts are wider than chains for the same power
belts need some tension to reduce skipping and wheel bearings have to be bigger/better as a result and installlation requires tension measuring tools to get within the narrow required range
belts need guards in places chains don't to stop debris locking the back wheel
older belts and  pulleys show pronounced tooth wear
belt drive models are slowly being replaced by chain drive models
belts cost a lot more than chains but have remarkably similar lifespans but lower interim care requirements in the real world. Pulleys cost way more than sprockets

In my Utopia there would be a fully enclosed bicycle chain case just like that found on many old Eastern bloc motorcycles. All the impecunious lumpenproleteriat rider had to do was open it every so often and put the flung off grease back on to the chain for re-use. Adjustment or replacement was rarely, and cleaning never, required. Simples. And not so far from Andre's Utopia either.

 

Andre Jute

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Re: Scott SUB 10 belt drive
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2012, 11:22:09 pm »
So I guess the real question to me would be: How much are you willing to spend extra for a belt drive?

Or how long you want to wait for the price to fall to some reasonable level.

belts cost a lot more than chains but have remarkably similar lifespans but lower interim care requirements in the real world. Pulleys cost way more than sprockets

My Utopia Kranich is the outcome of my longtime interest in a low-maintenance bicycle, a happy meeting of a personal interest with a manufacturer who had the same obsession. But from the beginning I wondered if these belts weren't a bit limiting. Essentially you take the gearing the manufacturer gives you because it is impossible/difficult/expensive to change gearing with a belt transmission. It's not like shortening a chain, or adding a few links.

And I'm not sure, looking at the crud toothed belts pick up in automobile engines, that a belt will be able to stay clean without a chain case or at least a cover, especially for people who cycle in street clothes, as I do. This summer has been too miserable, but normally in the summer I wear khakis or cream trousers, so a spotless transmission is essential.

In my Utopia there would be a fully enclosed bicycle chain case just like that found on many old Eastern bloc motorcycles. All the impecunious lumpenproleteriat rider had to do was open it every so often and put the flung off grease back on to the chain for re-use. Adjustment or replacement was rarely, and cleaning never, required. Simples. And not so far from Andre's Utopia either.

The proprietary Country chain case on my Kranich cost about as much a complete Csech motorbike in Czeckoslovakia in the year the Wall came down, and lasted about one-fiftieth the expected lifespan of a Czech motorbike. It is just too lightly built (and fragile in conception, though that gave me no trouble) for what despite its luxurious appointments is basically a touring/commuter/utility bike, a sort of upmarket Raven for Germans with sensitive backsides. I replaced the Country with a Hebie Chainglider which is giving stout service. And yes, I'm running an experiment in which a Rohloff sprocket/Surly stainless chain rung/KMC X8 chain are running inside the Chainglider without any extra oil, just with the factory lube on the chain. The experiment is currently at 1100km, and there is no extraordinary wear, or indeed any wear whatsoever, visible or measurable, and nothing (oil, metal fragments) flung off the chain into the Chainglider. At this stage I'm making no prediction about how long before I feel the need to add oil, except that it appears that the system will easily  make 1600km/1000m, at which point I'll decide whether to continue with the experiment.

It does seem, unless something goes wrong, that I'm heading towards a conclusion that a Hebie Chainglider with a chain running inside is a match in cleanliness for a bare belt drive, and more easily adapted to the cyclist's style or the terrain.

Andre Jute
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 11:25:55 pm by Hobbes »

energyman

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Re: Scott SUB 10 belt drive
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2012, 09:03:52 am »
Thanks for all that.

Now I've found the Revolution Belter '12 and it is a lot cheaper but single speed
[ http://www.edinburghbicycle.com/products/revolution-belter-12 ]

Time to make ones mind up.

JWestland

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Re: Scott SUB 10 belt drive
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2012, 01:22:04 pm »
I've a fixie at 42/16, one gear is generally fine if...

You don't expect flat out sprinting, as the gear you need to be able to tackle wind/hills will fall below your optimum (unless you are The King Of Spinners) :)
42/16 is too light for me, so will get a bigger ring in which is easy as it's a chain one but...it might be worth checking what your best gear is, if you only had one, as you can't change it as easily with a belt... (see Hobbes comment)

Edinburgh cycle collective is known for good bikes, so you can't really go wrong.
If you must have a belt... ;)


Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)

energyman

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Re: Scott SUB 10 belt drive
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2012, 03:55:24 pm »
The Internet being an amazing font of information................

SPOT bikes do belt drives.  Anyone out there have one ?
[They don't do Rohloffs though. :(  ]

energyman

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Re: Scott SUB 10 belt drive
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2012, 05:17:04 pm »
I now ride a belt drive bike and you know, it's just like riding a bike but with the advantage of not getting my trousers oily or having to maintain the chain and the other oily bits.
Its just the name that is a bit naff............

JWestland

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Re: Scott SUB 10 belt drive
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2012, 10:15:40 am »
Which one did you get? :)

And how is belt tensioning etc?
Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)

energyman

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Re: Scott SUB 10 belt drive
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2012, 12:16:38 pm »
I bought the SPOT ACME from Tim at Sideways Cycles of Alsager.  The belt tensioning system is rather neat (see the SPOT website http://spotbrand.com/bikes/product-page/acme/   for details - bit technical for me).  Tim advised that re-tensioning is highly unlikely, not like chains.  The belt has a groove along the centre to anchor it to the cogs something I havn't seen mentioned on European belt drive bikes.
Done a couple of short rides and it feels nearly as good as my RST but very much quieter.

JWestland

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Re: Scott SUB 10 belt drive
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2012, 10:30:33 am »
For that money it'd better be nearly as good as a Raven Tour  ;D

I am still not sold on the belt drive principle due to the much higher price of the bikes (less common, so lower stock, so more expensive...) and my chain driven bikes are all very silent (thorn xtc, derailleur, crappy Raleigh with 3 speed SA) the only noise I get is the freewheel on the SA and the chain on the Fixie needs replaced, after I took a link out.

But it the bike looks great and hub gears are fantastic for commuting purposes due to being bomb proof, low maintenance etc.
Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)

energyman

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Re: Scott SUB 10 belt drive
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2012, 11:03:56 pm »
Belts will come and go I think but I wanted to have one before they go again.  A couple of years ago I test rode a titanium £4k bike and all I could think of was that the saddle was agony.  After all it was just another bike..........