CSS Brakes Losing Braking Power

[mickeg]

I bought my CSS rims about three years ago, that was before the recommendation to only put one CSS rim on a bike due to poor braking power that develops as the rims get polished by repeated braking over time.  I have CSS rims on the front and rear of my Nomad and I have always used the Koolstop Rigida CSS brake pads.

When I heard that recommendation, it surprised me because my brakes were great and I was sure they would stay great forever.  But, the front is less powerful than it used to be as the rim has been polished more over time.  It is not bad yet, and hopefully it won't get bad.  But, it is no longer great. 

So, I have a rather crazy idea that I am wondering if anyone knows if it would work.  I am using V brakes, regular brake levers that have the amount of cable pull you would normally use on a cantilever brake, and am using Travel Agents that convert the amount of cable pull so that a lever that uses a short cable pull can work with V brakes that require a long cable pull.

The Travel Agent is the weird round thing in the photo that substitutes for a brake noodle.  If you are not familiar with a Travel Agent, more info here:
http://problemsolversbike.com/products/travel_agents/

If I remove the Travel Agent and use my cantilever brake levers directly on the V brakes, that would almost double the amount of pressure that I would apply at the brake pad when I apply the brakes, compared to using the Travel Agent.  The down side is that with less cable pull, I would have tighter clearance between the brake pads and the rim when I am not using the brakes, thus my wheel would have to be perfectly true.

So, the question is should I remove the Travel Agent?  Is there a down side that I have not thought of?  I have not made this modification yet, am not in any hurry to do so, but I thought I would run this idea past some of you to see if you thought there might be any downside that I have not thought of.

I am using a mini V brake on my foldup bike and using a normal cantilever type brake lever on that, the mini-V has 80mm of length from the brake pivot point to the cable attachment.  I have never used a travel agent on that brake.  The brake feels a little soft, but I do get great braking, almost too much braking power.  But on my Nomad, the V brakes arms are much longer at 110mm, so there would be a lot more leverage applied than with my foldup bike.

[Danneaux]

 Mickeg,

If the front is well on its way toward becoming polished, then I think I'd try a set of Kool-Stop salmon pads before I started changing out the Travel Agent or swapping brakes.

I was faced with a similar dilemma some years ago when I fitted Matrix (Trek) Titan rims on several of my bikes (they were supposed to be good, so I went for the bulk-buying discount, much to my eventual dismay). The rims were billed as "super hard anodized", and indeed they were. Unfortunately, though they worked nicely to begin with, they became polished enough after ~6,400km/4,000mi to feel like chrome-plated steel in the wet. It was no fun sailing through stop signs with the brake levers hard against the handlebars, held in place by my white knuckles.

Switching to really soft brake pads helped for a time, though I was eventually able to salvage one pair of rims only by shattering the hard-anodized surface and then milling it down to the base aluminum. What a chore, only to end up with a standard rim.

I think I'd try the soft-pad route for awhile. You may find with a less abrasive compound, the wear/polishing rate will decline and you can postpone replacement a bit longer.

All the best,

Dan.

[mickeg]

I thought that if it was as simple as softer pads, that SJS would not have started recommending only one CSS rim on a bike but instead would have recommended softer pads once the rims get worn in.

So I had not even considered different pads.  I have lots of other softer pads I can try, but none as soft as the Salmon.

I will probably do nothing for about two weeks, I might try different pads first.  But I will wait to see what others think too.

Thanks.

[il padrone]

How many kilometres (or those old school 'mile' thingies  ) have your CSS rims done?

I ask because mine are now up to just over 28,000 kms and are running fine with the Swissstop Blue pads. They brake excellently in the dry, and at times can sho a little lag in the cold rain (as happened a little this morning). But this rian riding effect was pretty much apparent from the early days, has not got noticeably worse over the 5 years of use, and has really never caused me any real concern, beyond needing to pull on a bit harder in wet weather stops. I'm pretty aware of it by now.

[geocycle]

How many kilometres (or those old school 'mile' thingies  ) have your CSS rims done?

I ask because mine are now up to just over 28,000 kms and are running fine with the Swissstop Blue pads. They brake excellently in the dry, and at times can sho a little lag in the cold rain (as happened a little this morning). But this rian riding effect was pretty much apparent from the early days, has not got noticeably worse over the 5 years of use, and has really never caused me any real concern, beyond needing to pull on a bit harder in wet weather stops. I'm pretty aware of it by now.

Yes, that's exactly my findings.  I've done 19,000 miles on my CSS rims with one change of swissstop blue pads (deore v brakes, xtr levers).  I live in a wet region with 3m of rain a year yet have never experienced this complete loss of braking that Mick and Matt have reported.  It is all a puzzle to understand why some clearly have some scary situations and others don't.

[JimK]

yeah I am at 14,000 miles, still with the original pads - on XTR brakes. The stopping power remains awesome dry, not so great wet but even then they get around to it.

[mickeg]

How many kilometres (or those old school 'mile' thingies  ) have your CSS rims done?

I ask because mine are now up to just over 28,000 kms and are running fine with the Swissstop Blue pads. They brake excellently in the dry, and at times can sho a little lag in the cold rain (as happened a little this morning). But this rian riding effect was pretty much apparent from the early days, has not got noticeably worse over the 5 years of use, and has really never caused me any real concern, beyond needing to pull on a bit harder in wet weather stops. I'm pretty aware of it by now.

Yes, that's exactly my findings.  I've done 19,000 miles on my CSS rims with one change of swissstop blue pads (deore v brakes, xtr levers).  I live in a wet region with 3m of rain a year yet have never experienced this complete loss of braking that Mick and Matt have reported.  It is all a puzzle to understand why some clearly have some scary situations and others don't.

The comment by geocycle that I have had "complete loss of braking" is not anywhere correct.  My original comment, I pasted below:

... But, the front is less powerful than it used to be as the rim has been polished more over time.  It is not bad yet, and hopefully it won't get bad.  But, it is no longer great.

When my CSS rims were new, the brakes were better than any brakes I have ever had on any other bike, but now are down to about average.  But with the SJS recommendation to new buyers to only put one CSS rim on a bike, I was more concerned about the future than current conditions.

Those of you that have commented above have more miles or km on your rims than me.  I think my front Koolstop Rigida CSS pads are about half worn through, the Swisstop pad were unavailable when I bought my Koolstop pads.

But thanks for your comments.  It makes me feel better that my brakes are unlikely to get much worse, and might not degrade at all.

I am using an XT brake on the front, I am changing that to a different brake with longer reach so that there is no interference with my fender.  I plan to do that in a couple weeks.  At that time I might try different pads, I might keep the pads I have.  No decision made yet.

[geocycle]

Sorry Mickeg, didn't mean to misrepresent your post.  IIRC I think it was Matt2Matt who had a difficult experience on one of his shakedown tours. 

[Matt2matt2002]

Matt2matt here.
Swiss top blue for me.
No idea on rim misge since bike is 2nd or 3rd hand.
Great in the dry. Suicidal in the wet.
Dan's quote of sailing through stop signs in the wet was something I experienced as well. Not funny at all.
However I stuck with them and the served me well on my Pamir trip last year. ( rained x2 in 2 months)
Not sure how many miles they clocked up but I changed them.last week as it happens.
The ones I took off were well worn.
I'll check my stats and let you know their milage.

Yes, interesting that SJS recommend only one wheel with them.
Says something about their braking ability.

Would I buy them on a new build?
Probably not.

New ones can stop.me on a penny. Even in today's wet 20 mile ride.

Matt

[julk]

I also experienced the unable to stop at road junctions effect in very wet conditions, great in the dry though.
I reached the point where I had to start braking a long way in advance in very wet conditions, not always possible.
I had the front wheel de’CSS’ed and a standard rim fitted for peace of mind.
Much happier now…
Julian.

[Matt2matt2002]

I just checked my stats and the previous Swisstop Blues did 2,023 miles

1,000+ was across the Pamir Highway. Lots of braking there.

I guess I could have carried on using them. The grooves were not completely worn away. Maybe one quarter was gone on 2 of the pads.
But I am getting ready for my one month trip to Sri Lanka so thought I'd put new ones on in preparation.
It's June - but I like to let things bed in.
 
Matt

[mickeg]

...
Great in the dry. Suicidal in the wet.
Dan's quote of sailing through stop signs in the wet was something I experienced as well. Not funny at all.
...

Yes, interesting that SJS recommend only one wheel with them.
Says something about their braking ability.

Would I buy them on a new build?
Probably not.
...

Mine are not bad when wet (yet?), but I am considering putting softer pads on them.  I might do a rather wet month long trip later this year, I am thinking about carrying softer pads for one wheel in my spares as a backup if I have any problems.  I might buy the Salmon pads for that.

Would I buy CSS again?  I think I would.  For both wheels?  Not sure yet.  I like the way that I am not wearing off any Aluminum and that is why I bought them.  And if I removed the Travel Agent adapter (described above in my first post) I could get a lot more pad pressure on the rims, so if they get really slick in wet conditions, that is a possible contingency plan too.

When I was a kid and later as a young adult, I had chrome plated steel rims on several bikes, so I know how ineffective rim brakes can be on wet days with rims and brake pads that do not like wet conditions.

I have commented before that I wished the rims were wider for when I use 57mm wide tires.  Thus, I can say that I would not buy Andra 30 again.  But that is a different topic and unrelated to the CSS issue.

I did 890 miles (~1400 km) of Pacific Coast route in USA on a bike without CSS.  There were a lot of hills in the 8 percent grade range.  The photo is of my brake pads when I got home.  I would rather wear out brake pads than expensive rims, but my point with the photo is that if I wore down the pads that much I am sure I wore a lot of Aluminum off too.  That trip was with Mavic A719 rims and they are not cheap.

[Hamish]

My polished rims lost braking power in the wet.. I just switched to a normal black v brake pad and it's loads better now.