Author Topic: Worn chain  (Read 7529 times)

daviddd55

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Worn chain
« on: November 25, 2015, 05:38:44 PM »
I'm puzzled :). On my Rave Tour (Rohloff) the chain has stretched such that even when tensioning on the bottom bracket is at max the chain still come off. So I took out a link (well, as I understand it two links of course, male and female) and now the chain is too tight to go back together. I've had the bike years and am sure I've done this before, so what's going on?

geocycle

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Re: Worn chain
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2015, 05:59:07 PM »
Tricky, there is usually just enough adjustment so that if the chain is too slack at maximum adjustment of the EBB removing a link will give a tight but usable chain. Variables includes chain ring and sprocket size as well as chain stay length. Solutions are either a new chain or a half link.
 

jags

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Re: Worn chain
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2015, 06:51:44 PM »
did you reset the  bottom bracket. ;)

ipswichcycler

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Re: Worn chain
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2015, 09:02:40 PM »
The same happened on my nomad

onrbikes

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Re: Worn chain
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2015, 04:28:04 AM »
Here's my take.

when the chain gets installed adjustment is needed to get the tension correct, thus already losing valuable adjustment .

When the BB is at its limit its really only used up a fraction of "real" adjustment.

I now leave the chain loose until I'm able to remove the links to place back on again. But usual just buy cheaper chains and replace them.

There must also be a certain chainring/sprocket combo that would ideal that when the chain is replace the tension is near perfect, so when the BB is at the end of its stroke, the chain really is worn.

jags

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Re: Worn chain
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2015, 02:15:35 PM »
is there not a chain tensioner u can buy ?

mickeg

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Re: Worn chain
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2015, 03:33:42 PM »
...
when the chain gets installed adjustment is needed to get the tension correct, thus already losing valuable adjustment .
...

I dug out my caliper.  The distance from the rear axle to the bottom bracket can be shifted by a half inch with the Nomad eccentric.  I think (but do not know for sure) that the Raven uses the same eccentric. 

Since a chain consists of half inch long links, I suspect that the eccentric was designed that way.  Thus, if you used up too much adjustment when a new chain is first installed, you should still be able to remove a pair of links (one inner plate link and one outer plate link) to shorten the chain enough.

That probably is not an ideal solution, your saddle would suddenly be a half inch too far forward if you move your bottom bracket back a half inch.  If you adjust the saddle rail position, then your handlebars are too far away from your saddle.  This likely is something most people would like to avoid.

...
There must also be a certain chainring/sprocket combo that would ideal that when the chain is replace the tension is near perfect, so when the BB is at the end of its stroke, the chain really is worn.

The "ideal" combination of chainring/sprocket would also vary with different chainstay lengths.  I did not check the Thorn specifications, but I assume different bike models and possibly different size frames have different chainstay lengths.

I suspect that there are many "ideal" combinations, but how you define "ideal" may vary depending on how much stretch you want to have before replacement.  Derailleur bikes, I try to change the chain at 0.75 percent stretch.  On the Nomad, I am still on my first chain, but I will probably also use a 0.75 percent stretch criteria for that bike too. 

So, I do not think "ideal" means you need to have the bottom bracket in the rear-most position on a new installation, you just need to have enough adjustment remaining that you can take up all the slack you expect to need before chain replacement.  And the Nomad being an expedition bike, you probably would want a bit more adjustment available in the event that you can't find a new chain while you are in outer Mongolia.

Last time I checked, I was around 0.5 to 0.6 percent stretch on my Nomad, so I am getting close to replacement time.  But, I think I have enough adjustment left in the eccentric to make it to my goal of 0.75 percent.

My Nomad (size 590M) has a 44T front/16T rear and has 104 chain links (52 inner plate and 52 outer plate links).  Sometimes I use a 36T chainring instead, then I remove four links.  (I also have to adjust the eccentric slightly when I switch chainrings.)  Thus my chain is 52 inches when new, or 50 if using the smaller chainring.  At 0.75 percent stretch, the chain would be 0.375 inches longer when I want to replace it.  Thus, I need a range of adjustment of about half that, or about 0.1875 inches, that is well under the half inch range provided by the eccentric.

I suspect most people will run their chains longer than me.  I would rather replace cheap chains than have to also replace the rear cog too, that gets a bit more pricey.  (Yes, I know I can turn the cog around to get double the wear.)  I buy the cheapest KMC chains, I can get two or three new chains for the cost of one rear cog.

I am using the word "stretch" here, but the metal plates in chains do not actually "stretch", a chain gets longer due to the bearing wear in the links, so I hope my use of the word "stretch" does not cause confusion.  Maybe I should have used the word elongation.

Andre Jute

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Re: Worn chain
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2015, 06:47:23 PM »
is there not a chain tensioner u can buy ?

The point of hub gears and EBB is to avoid a chain tensioner.

mickeg

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Re: Worn chain
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2015, 06:54:02 PM »
is there not a chain tensioner u can buy ?

The point of hub gears and EBB is to avoid a chain tensioner.

I think the tensioners hang from the derailleur hanger that is missing on Thorn Rohloff models.

daviddd55

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Re: Worn chain
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2015, 08:25:54 PM »
thank you all for replies. I think my chain is stretched far more than the <1% or so mentioned here....more like 3%  ::). so it's probably kaput.

I'd forgotten about half links - but I will prob fit new cheap chain, whip rear sprocket around and keep same chainring for a while. I've probably replaced the whole tx 5 or 6 times in 9 years - not cheap - and have done close to 40,000km, 75% fully laden on tour. Expensive, but still love my Raven. It's my main vehicle (no car) but so strong and reliable. The rear rim has split twice and been replaced, but the front is original and still runs true - a testament to the quality of build at Thorn.

mickeg

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Re: Worn chain
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2015, 09:17:47 PM »
Sheldon Brown has a very good discussion of chain stretch.  But, I find it easiest to measure chain stretch by taking the chain off the bike and using my four foot ruler to measure stretch.  Sheldon talks about a shorter length ruler which I find does not have the precision I like to have.
http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html#wear

And you might want to look at this too, but this is only applicable to chainrings and cogs with an even number of teeth.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chain-life.html

SJS uses an odd number (17) of teeth on Rohloff cogs as a default, that is probably what you have.  But Rohloff uses 16 as their default if you bought your hub elsewhere.  I have an even number of teeth on both front and rear, I put a little notch in one tooth on my chainring and a notch on one tooth on my rear cog.  Then I always put the chain on so that a link with outer plates goes over the teeth with little notches cut in them. 

When the little notches get filled in with grime, they are hard to see.  One time when I had a small bottle of yellow touch up paint handy, I also painted the  notched teeth yellow.

JimK

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Re: Worn chain
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2015, 03:46:22 AM »
SJS uses an odd number (17) of teeth on Rohloff cogs as a default, 

I think the default was 16 in 2010 when I got my Nomad... anyway, that's what's on my bike!