New Raven build -- advice sought

[djd828]

Dan, as usual, thanks...your well-reasoned devil's advocate viewpoint is always welcome.  And of course, your reasoning is swinging me back into the 32 spoke camp.  I do like the Andra rims but those silver polished new Velocity Cliffhangers are calling me.

Mickreg, I got the Andra 535 ERD figure from the Ryde website but, you are correct, the SJC website does list the Andra CSS Rohloff specific rims at 541 which corresponds to a 238mm spoke on the Rohloff chart.  I assume that the Rohloff specific rims may have a slightly different ERD than the normal rims?  In any case, it does look like the Rohloff chart is accurate.  Not sure why Rohloff recommends 12mm nipples and SJC 14mm.

Well, I think I am going to order the Rohloff tomorrow and then I will have several more weeks to choose rims.   If anyone else wants to chime in on the 32/36 choice, please do.

Thanks all,

Dave

[mickeg]

...
. I got the Andra 535 ERD figure from the Ryde website but, you are correct, the SJC website does list the Andra CSS Rohloff specific rims at 541 which corresponds to a 238mm spoke on the Rohloff chart.  ...

I noted that I used the spoke length from Rohloff chart, but I did not even know that Rigida became Ryde until I opened up the box that the rims were in, so I am 99 percent confident that I used the ERD from the SJS website. 

Years ago I found an ERD printed on a Salsa rim was different than on their web site.  I sent an e-mail to the company and asked which it was.  The customer service guy was shocked that they had an error, then he was shocked that nobody had asked that before, then he was even more shocked that it took a long time for someone in the company to get a correct answer for me.  Mistakes happen.  SJS builds up a ton of those wheels with Ryde rims, so if you get the Ryde rim, I would trust SJS to have the correct data on spoke length.

But, I used 36 instead of 32 so I did not ask SJS what spoke length they used, I looked it up.

If you order the Rohloff from Europe, I screwed up when I ordered it.  I used a credit card with a 3 percent currency conversion fee, I could have used a card with 1 percent fee.  Don't make the same mistake I made.

[djd828]

Thanks Mickeg---I happen to have a CC with no foreign trans fee so I am all set....and you have to like the US/EU exchange rate these days.

[martinf]

One more thing to consider for rim selection - the Andra 30 rims from SJS are available in specific Rohloff drillings (different angle for the spoke holes), which should make a slightly stronger wheel than a normal rim. Don't know if this is the case for Cliffhanger rims.

As for 36/32, I went with 32 for the Rohloff as 36 wasn't available at the time, and Andra 30 rims with the CSS coating to reduce rim wear. I specified 32H for the front wheel as well. If I ever need to replace a rear rim while on tour I reckon that if I can only find 36H I could pinch the front wheel rim for the Rohloff and temporarily fit a cheap front wheel.

There have been reports that CSS coating may reduce braking effectiveness, but I haven't yet found this to be a problem.

[il padrone]

One more thing to consider for rim selection - the Andra 30 rims from SJS are available in specific Rohloff drillings (different angle for the spoke holes), which should make a slightly stronger wheel than a normal rim. Don't know if this is the case for Cliffhanger rims.

A not-insignificant consideration. I have heard of riders having spoke breakage problems with Rohloff hubs...... solved when they rebuilt the wheel with the Andra 30 rim. The Rohloff's wider hub flanges places greater deflection on the spokes and using a normal drilling the spokes are bent out wider. Most of that bending occurs at the nipple leading to a stress point that soon fatigues. The Andra Rohloff drilling keeps your  spokes straight and happy

As for 36/32, I went with 32 for the Rohloff as 36 wasn't available at the time, and Andra 30 rims with the CSS coating to reduce rim wear. I specified 32H for the front wheel as well. If I ever need to replace a rear rim while on tour I reckon that if I can only find 36H I could pinch the front wheel rim for the Rohloff and temporarily fit a cheap front wheel.

There have been reports that CSS coating may reduce braking effectiveness, but I haven't yet found this to be a problem.

I also have a 32 spoke Rohloff on Andra 30 CSS rims. I have carried in excess of 40kgs on the bike on long stretches of very rough outback roads. No spokes have given any problems in over 5 years now.

[djd828]

A not-insignificant consideration. I have heard of riders having spoke breakage problems with Rohloff hubs...... solved when they rebuilt the wheel with the Andra 30 rim. The Rohloff's wider hub flanges places greater deflection on the spokes and using a normal drilling the spokes are bent out wider. Most of that bending occurs at the nipple leading to a stress point that soon fatigues. The Andra Rohloff drilling keeps your  spokes straight and happy

Here is what Velocity says about their drilling angle....I am not sure how it compares to the Rohloff specific Andra:

Spoke holes are drilled at an exit angle of around 4 degrees, and alternate from left to right flange bias at every other hole.

This info is taken from their rim info page which can be found here:

http://www.velocityusa.com/tech/rims/

[mickeg]

When I cited the table for spoke lengths in their manual, that was the 32 spoke chart.  This link is newer, you should use this table that has both 32 and 36 spoke columns.

http://www.rohloff.de/fileadmin/rohloffde/technik/speedhub/speichenlaengen/erd_32_36_Speichenlaenge_07_2015_de_en.pdf

I looked up my original order for spokes, I bought 232mm spokes for a 36 spoke build.  The Rohloff table says that spoke should be used on an ERD of 535 to 538. 

Even if the rim is 541 as cited by SJS, that would mean my spokes are only off by 2mm, and a spoke that is 2mm too short is not a big deal.  (Too long and you might run out of threads before you get it tight, that is a big deal.)  I just looked at my wheels, the front looks like my spoke length is right on but my rear wheel looks like I might have about 2 mm of spoke threading outside of the nipple on the rear wheel.  See attached photo.  So, I probably could have used 234 mm spokes and that spoke would be about right for a 541mm ERD according to the Rohloff table.

So, to summarize, my rear spokes might be 2mm too short, but my front are right on.  Not sure how to interpret that when it comes to back calculating ERD.  (Fortunately, my bike works fine so I do not need to worry about this stuff any more.)

I previously suggested that you order your spokes with the hub since the spoke length is odd for a Rohloff and Rohloff sells packs of spokes to make it easier to find the spokes you need.  But, I am starting to think the best thing to do is to buy the rims you want and ask your wheel builder to measure the ERD from the rim.  That takes more time, but you have the time.

Some bike shops have a spoke threading machine and can make custom length spokes.  I used to buy my spokes from a local shop, they commonly cut to length instead of maintaining a large inventory of spoke lengths.  I used to bring my hubs and rims in to them, they would measure ERD, calculate length, and cut and thread my spokes for me.

Regarding the angle of the nipple at the rim, that is why I used Sapim nipples on my Nomad.  I checked my order form, I bought 12mm nipples.  Sapim claims that their nipples are better for getting those odd angles on the rim.  In the photo you can see I do not have a lot of nipple sticking out of the rim, but there was enough to get my spoke wrench on it.

http://www.sapim.be/nipples/brass/polyax

I used Wheelsmith spokes, in part because I always use their spokes.  And Peter White likes them, that is a pretty strong endorsement.  They sell their spokes in bags of 50, so I have more spares than I could ever use.  And the Sapim nipples came in a bag of 100.

In USA it is very hard to find Sapim spokes, so I did not spend a lot of time looking. 

I use the green spoke wrench on the Sapim nipples.

[djd828]

Thanks so much Mickeg for the valuable info and the photo.  Yes, I think I will order the rims before I do anything else.  As far as the nipple length 12mm vs. 14mm, I assume that SJC used 14mm nipples on their Andra's to get more of the spoke protruding from the rim.  That is just speculation because I don't think a longer nipple does anything to increase when strength.

On another note, I did end up ordering the 32 hole Rohloff after taking into account the responses from forum members who offered their opinion.  I can't thank everyone enough for your help with this project.

Dave

[mickeg]

...
On another note, I did end up ordering the 32 hole Rohloff after taking into account the responses from forum members who offered their opinion.  I can't thank everyone enough for your help with this project.

Dave

I think 32 would make sense for the front too, no need for 36 up front when you have 32 in back.

[Andre Jute]

I think 32 would make sense for the front too, no need for 36 up front when you have 32 in back.

+1

Even if your rims have the Rohloff-specific drilling, the Sapim Polyax nipples offer an additional layer of security. My wheels, built for the people from whom the correct drilling angles were first devised, use both (in fact all three: there is also a Rohloff-specific Sapim Strong spoke with an advantageous special elbow angle, though I don't know if it is sold to the public or only OEM's -- ugly though, with an inelegantly sudden, short, fat butt) and they are a marvel of precision and longevity. Many builders consider the Polyax nipples to be an essential alleviation of the sudden angles imposed by wide hub/short spoke configurations.

The Sapim Strong spoke is already a level or even two up from what anyone else, especially the designers with roadie-weight-weenie backgrounds, consider necessary even for loaded tourers. If you're saving a few grammes by fitting 32 rather than 36 spoke wheels, Sapim Strong spokes are probably overkill, whereas you must anyway use nipples of some kind and thus may as well use Polyax which are pretty lightweight.

[il padrone]

Rigida (now called Ryde) Andra30 rim review

http://www.cyclingabout.com/review-rigida-andra-30-rim/

[macspud]

I wonder why we don't hear about the Ryde/Rigida Andra 40 rim (http://www.ryde.nl/andra-40). With 25mm inner rim width to optimally fit 37-62mm tyres, as oposed to the Andra 30 rim (http://www.ryde.nl/andra-30) with 19mm inner width to optially fit 25-57mm tyres. I would have thought that they would be more suitable to many tourers who want wider more baloon like tyres, the wider inner width meaning that the wide tyres can be run at lower pressure without become overly squirmy when cornering hard.

Anybody with experience of the Andra 40 rims?

There are serious advantages to balloons and semi-balloons in the 47-55mm range, the fatter the better. On a different sort of bike I use 60mm balloons (the biggest a Thorn can take is 2.15in or 55mm) and have been absolutely bowled over by their speed and comfort; the whole affair is really counterintuitive: for a start, low pressure balloons have lower rolling resistance than thin high pressure tyres...

The inside width of your rim across the bead retainer must be no narrower than 2.5x the width of the widest tyre you want to fit but there is benefit in going wider still. That ERTRO now permits a lower multiple for balloons is a wrong decision, nothing to do with engineering, taken because in the growth of wider, lower pressure tyre sales a lot of rim manufacturers would have been stuck with unsaleable stock of outlawed narrow rims, in short a permission hostile to cyclists taken for the profits of component makers. So buy the widest (inside measurement) rims that fit your other specifications, which then allows for future changes of mind on tyre width. Personally, if I were fitting out a bike that could take a maximum 55mm tyre, I wouldn't fit a rim less wide across the beads than 22mm. My current bike has 24mm bead spacing Exal XL touring rims, but they're a bit hard to find in the open market. (I've ridden balloons up to 60mm on rims as narrow as 16mm across the beads, and no disasters befell me, but the tyres were noticeably squirmier, so probably I lost the rolling resistance advantage; on a difficult or even just a loaded tour, that could make a difference.)

The inside width of your rim across the bead retainer must be no narrower than 2.5x the width of the widest tyre you want to fit but there is benefit in going wider still.

Andre, I think you meant. The inside width of your rim across the bead retainer must be no narrower than 0.4x the width of the widest tyre you want to fit , or in other words, the width of the widest tyre you want to fit must be no wider than 2.5x the inside width of your rim across the bead retainer, but there is benefit in going wider still.

The Andra 30 with 19mm inner rim width and stated optimal tyre widths of 25-57mm has an inner rim to tyre width range of 1.32x - 3x (47.5mm being 2.5x)

The Andra 40 with 25mm inner rim width and stated optimal tyre width of 37-62mm has an inner rim to tyre width range of 1.48x - 2.48x

Looking at the figures, to me, the Andra 40 certainly looks preferable for any tyre even approaching what would be called wide i.e. 40mm plus?

[Danneaux]

Anybody with experience of the Andra 40 rims?

Only second-hand, Mac'. A friend in Bavaria just took delivery of a new bike with equipped with them as OEM parts. He is very pleased. His are 700C, fitted with 50mm tires. He is almost 2m tall and weighs a lot, so is pleased to have super-duty components available when he adds a touring load.

His bike (same brand as Andre's, but a different model chosen specifically because it was tested and rated for his intended body weight plus touring cargo weight) is designed for Schwalbe Big Apples, which he intends to run someday.

I think the big deterrent to fitting '40s is they weigh ~790g vs the '30s 647.5g in a 559mm ERD (26in size). The Andra 30 is already a pretty heavy rim. Adding ~140g *more* at the rim is really noticeable, though once up to speed and ridden in a steady-state, it wouldn't be bad. There's a sort of flywheel effect when using really heavy wheels at speed. It is acceleration that suffers, so you'd really feel the difference in stoplight sprints when commuting and when cranking slowly uphill.  For comparison, the Mavic MA-2 double-ferruled 36x700C training rims I have fitted to my rando bikes weigh 452g each.

There is a connection between Ryde and Sapim, described by me here: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=3571.0

Best,

Dan.

[martinf]

I think the big deterrent to fitting '40s is they weigh ~790g vs the '30s 647.5g in a 559mm ERD (26in size). The Andra 30 is already a pretty heavy rim.

I reckoned the Andra 30 rims on my Raven tour were over 700g, so I checked the Ryde website:

http://www.ryde.nl/andra-30 and http://www.ryde.nl/andra-40

In 559 26" size Andra 30 are quoted as being 735g, whereas Andra40 are quoted as 750g.

If it's correct, not much of a difference.

[macspud]

I think the big deterrent to fitting '40s is they weigh ~790g vs the '30s 647.5g in a 559mm ERD (26in size). The Andra 30 is already a pretty heavy rim.

Dan, according to the Ryde website the Andra 30 559(26") weighs in at 735g whereas the Andra 40 559(26") weighs 750g. So according to the Ryde website there is only a 15g difference between the two rather than the 142.5g that you've quoted.

Edit:
Ah, I see that martinf has answered along the same lines whilst I was writing this reply.