New saddle and new problems

[JimK]

I just checked that elbow - fingertip rule of thumb on my Nomad. When I put my elbow at the nose of the saddle, my fingertips just hit the middle of my steering tube. So there is the whole length of the stem out ahead of that before hitting the handlebars. But I have comfort bars too, not drops. With drops, the tops of the bars, where the stem clamps the bars, that is the closest place you grip, and the hoods are again a few inches further forward of the saddle. With the comfort bars, the grips are closer to the saddle than the stem clamp.

Dan is certainly right, that the real question to resolve with seatpost layback is the saddle to bottom bracket relationship. That bike fit link I posted above does address that in the conventional way. My saddle is also all the way back as far as the clamp allows. I think sometimes about getting a seatpost with more layback. I certainly sit way far back on the saddle! But of course that is also the way the saddle is designed.

Yeah I too vote for that old saddle being a Team Pro. Sure looks nice! But the Flyer is great too.

[Danneaux]

Jim (and Matt),

The long(er)-layback rigid seatpost does the obvious for me in terms of positioning behind the BB, but it also does something else:

It puts the clamp closer to the center of the saddle rails.

Without the offset, the bulk of the saddle/rider weight is cantilevered off the back of the seatpost, making the rails more prone to fracture.

It took me awhile, but I realized this was a real factor for me in Brooks rail breakages (a half-dozen broken chrome rails on past Brooks...I learned how to re-rivet the leather tops to fresh rails pretty quickly). I have not had a problem since Brooks switched to powder-coated rails, but that's also when I switched to longer-layback seatposts to get the clamp more centrally located, so I'm not sure which is most responsible for the improvement. Certainly the saddle feels more secure (and has less faux "suspension" that was really rail-flex) with a more central clamp placement.

On my suspension seatposts, I am able to adjust clamp placement in concert with elastomer preload to achieve the same effect as a longer-layback seatpost. By "longer-layback", I mean a 'post with substantial layback as opposed to the minimally offset 'posts or zero-offset 'posts. Thorn's formerly available Zoom-made (Hsin Ling) model did the job nicely on Sherpa and now Seymour the Nomad.

Best,

Dan.

[Matt2matt2002]

Re the saddle question.

I must admit I have always thought of it as a B17
It came with the bike - second-hand.
I rode 8,000 miles in 21 months on it. ( I went for the new saddle because it was a good price and I liked the idea of a little more 'spring' at the rear).
The rear metal tag fell off a few months ago - but it sure is a Brooks.

Here are more shots in the hope someone can identify it for me.






A few dents but sure is comfortable


Quite narrow



So could it be a Team Pro?
'professional' is stamped on the side.....


Thanks again folks

Matt

[Danneaux]

Matt,

I think the sharp-eyed gentlemen before me spotted it correctly. Not a B.17, I believe it to be a Team Pro.

Lovely saddle, adored by many, much admired by me.

I just find I must go with the slightly wider B.17 myself, thanks to my slightly more upright riding position.

Best,

Dan.

[Matt2matt2002]

Thanks Dan.
I sure like the narrow mid section.
Hopefully my new B 17 will 'conform' as the miles roll by.
I do detect a positive effect from the springs, so that's a plus.

So; I kick off the year knowing a little more about my Raven.
An adventure. I like adventures. Large or small.

Matt

[Danneaux]

An adventure. I like adventures. Large or small.

Yes! Me too! And...the biggest one of all, Life! 

All the best,

Dan.

[Bill C]

Matt
 if you don't get on with the new saddle you might like to try a Brooks Conquest, they are being remade now and are more like the team pro that you already have, not 100% but i think its the  same upper


edit
i knew i'd seen it somewhere  http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/saddles/brooks-conquest.html   

[Matt2matt2002]

Here we go again folks.....

Great thoughts and advice as usual....

In no particular order.

Dan, you mentioned the rails sometimes breaking if under too much strain?
Here is my position.
I need the saddle that far forward to stop my knees hitting the bars!
 




I checked on my Team Pro Brooks saddle I removed last week and the rails were marked in the same position - quite far forward.
Am I putting too much strain on the rails?

I made sure the rails line up with the grooves in the clamp but note that the rails do not run straight/parallel underneath the saddle. And also the grips do run parallel. Why so? With the ability to move the saddle forwards and backwards I would have thought that both rails and grooves should aline at any position?

Here is a shot of the rails in the grooves.


I then noticed that the edges of the saddle are not equal distance from the center.



Could this be just how mine was made - or a fault?
Could I wear it in? I know each saddle must be slightly different but is this excessive?

JimK....
The finger tip rule....
I am well short of that distance. More mid palm hits the steering tube!

So - It appears that the new saddle pitches me forward and gives me an excessively up-right feeling.

Before I splash out on a longer bar stem, any other suggestions?

( JimK - I'll remove a few spacers and see if that works before ordering a new bar stem )

[JimK]

I think Dan's point is valid, that getting the clamp more centered front-to-back on the rails will reduce stress on the rails. But adjusting the saddle front-to-back to optimize the fit of one's body on the bike, the saddle is designed for that. So I wouldn't worry too much about that - it's a fine detail. The leather not being centered... I think that is just the way natural materials are. It'll all shift as you ride on it, anyway!

Mid-palm to steering tube... hmmm... if the feeling of uprightness is like your hips are too far over the pedals... yeah, you really do want a long lay-back seatpost! The Thomson is one possibility:

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thomson-elite-setback-seat-post-410mm-x-272mm-prod31023/?geoc=us

I am not expert on this at all... the seatpost diameter has to be right, or at least a touch small & then with a shim...

another possibility might be:

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/sp3.htm

- oops, this is probably too short for a compact frame!

[leftpoole]

Here we go again folks.....

Great thoughts and advice as usual....

In no particular order.

Dan, you mentioned the rails sometimes breaking if under too much strain?
Here is my position.
I need the saddle that far forward to stop my knees hitting the bars!
 




I checked on my Team Pro Brooks saddle I removed last week and the rails were marked in the same position - quite far forward.
Am I putting too much strain on the rails?

I made sure the rails line up with the grooves in the clamp but note that the rails do not run straight/parallel underneath the saddle. And also the grips do run parallel. Why so? With the ability to move the saddle forwards and backwards I would have thought that both rails and grooves should aline at any position?

Here is a shot of the rails in the grooves.


I then noticed that the edges of the saddle are not equal distance from the center.



Could this be just how mine was made - or a fault?
Could I wear it in? I know each saddle must be slightly different but is this excessive?

JimK....
The finger tip rule....
I am well short of that distance. More mid palm hits the steering tube!

So - It appears that the new saddle pitches me forward and gives me an excessively up-right feeling.

Before I splash out on a longer bar stem, any other suggestions?

( JimK - I'll remove a few spacers and see if that works before ordering a new bar stem )

Hello,
If your knees hit the bars the solution is pretty obvious, move the bars forward. Or indeed get a longer frame
The saddle is designed to move fore and aft on the rails and as such is doing it no harm, but knees hitting bars is dreadful!
Regards,
John

[Matt2matt2002]

I put a  after I said about knees hitting the bars.

Not that bad of course but way too close.
Strange that this should be caused by a wider saddle pushing me and my bum forwards.

Thankscfirv gexsuggestion of the seat post Jim.
I think a longer barcstem will be cheaper but will keep it in mind.

I never would have thought a wee tweak would cause such a dynamic change.

[JimK]

could be that the setup of the rails on the Flyer pushes the saddle more forward than the Pro, so it is not so much the width of the saddle that changed as the position of the saddle.

[JimK]

this might be an option... on sale!

http://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;navigation=1;menu=1000,2,110;product=16219

or

http://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;navigation=1;product=49218;page=1;menu=1000,2,110;mid=227

Do these offset / setbacks / laybacks all get measured uniformly?

Your top tube doesn't slope so much... you could probably use:

http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/seatposts/vo-grand-cru-seat-post-long-setback.html

[Danneaux]

Strange that this should be caused by a wider saddle pushing me and my bum forwards.

Matt,

I think the root of the problem is visible in your saddle-overlay photo. The various Brooks saddles I've seen vary not only in width or design, but in where the rear begins to flare. The wider saddles intended for more upright riding begin their flare sooner -- more forward -- than the racing saddles, so the thighs contact the wider sides sooner, pushing a person further ahead.

If your position in relation to the bottom bracket has changed, then so has your position on the bike. Fitting a longer-reach stem will open up the cockpit, but you'll still be sitting more forward in relation to the pedals. A change to straight handlebars would also open up some room for you, but still leaves you in a more forward position on the bike.

Rails a bit unparallel and lack of symmetry in the cover-to-rail gap is typical, I've found, and so I try to hand-select my saddles to minimize the problem. These are handmade items, and so some variation is expected without it being considered a defect. However, I have seen some really skewed covers on rare occasion, and these I do consider "defects" worthy of return. The rails should square-up when clamped securely.

Looking at the whole of things (if 't'were me) and reading your description of how it feels, I'd try a long-layback seatpost.

All the best,

Dan.

[geocycle]

Could the spring on the flyer be angling you forward?  The team pro is perfectly flat.  For the flyer to achieve the same position the springs must have to be compressed slightly?  If you're not particularly heavy or the spring is very strong being new it might be you are not getting quite the horizontal platform you had before? I've not tried one so I'm guessing here.