New saddle and new problems

[Matt2matt2002]

Happy New Year to everyone.

Santa brought me new Brooks B17 + springs. I had been riding a second hand B17 & very happy with it. But when I saw the sprung version at a good price, decided to see what Santa could do. 



Fitted it yesterday and had a couple of goes adjusting the upwards and downwards angle. Got it just right, however....

It appears to be wider that than my old one. Wider halfway along - not at the rear.
Here's a snap looking down.



Old saddle on top. Can you see its a few mil. wider?
Question. If I tighten up the front saddle bolt nut will it pull the leather tighter - and narrow the width?
I'm quite prepared to ride it until I fit it, just wondered.

Also....
I have no rearward adjustment on the seat post and now feel as if the distance between me sitting on the saddle and reaching for the bars, has been shortened.
I am riding in a more upright position than of before.

Here's a shot of the front end. I fitted an extension Click-fit arm to the top.
Intended to allow me to fit the Go-pro.
I also lowered the T-bar to under the bars.



Here is another shot showing the new location of the T-bar.



It's a Thorn Stem 40 degree 110mm

If I want to increase the distance between the bars and saddle, should I consider buying the Thorn 150mm 12 degree or the 150 degree 6 degree one?

Any other ways to increase this distance?

Lastly, some of you may recall that I had a big problem with my bars and the Rohloff shifter a few months back.
The LBS fitted a new one and I asked then to fit new brake cables at the same time.

I just noticed that the front brake cable appears quite short. Haven't had a problem turning the bars. I only became aware of it when fiddling about with the T-bar and Go-Pro.



The picture is straight on to the cable so the curve - such as there is one, doesn't show up too well.
But any opinions on the length?

Here's the present state of affairs.



all the best for 2015

[jags]

Happy new year to u Matt.
your arse will get used to that saddle in no time leave well enough alone

did you make any videos yet.

anto.

[in4]

My Conquest is sprung like your Champion flyer: Mine has a little lateral movement in the saddle but being sprung I guess it should have so I'm not tightening anything; I've only 1300 miles on it so its a mere babe.
What did help me was making some very fine adjustments to my cockpit length. By moving my saddle slightly forward and by raising my adjustable headstem I have a much more comfortable riding position. My sit bones feel better placed and my Conquest's width ( similar to your Champion's I guess ) is an asset (!) as opposed to a hinderance (!)

[JimK]

I don't think tightening that tensioning bolt will narrow the saddle up at all. One thing you could try, if you really want, is lacing the saddle. You would drill half a dozen holes or so along the bottom edge of each side and run some shoe lace between the sides to snug up the distance. But really, both lacing and retensioning are generally things you do with a well-worn saddle, to relieve the sag that develops as the leather stretches one way or another.

The classical solution to the positioning problem is to get a new seat post with a larger lay-back. Not an inexpensive solution, of course!

That extension Click-fit arm looks nifty. I didn't know those existed! Looks perfect for the go-pro!

The only problem I see with that short front brake cable housing - it looks from the photo a bit like that brake noodle isn't seated so securely? There should really be no question of that somehow jostling out of position! If the cable housing were tugging on that to pull it out of line somehow, that would seem worth addressing. Of course if the housing leaves the lever housing too sharply, up at the bars, then that might stress the cable and make for a wear problem. Anyway it's hard to tell exactly from the photos.... just a couple things to double check maybe.

[Matt2matt2002]

Thanks In4
Adjustable headstem?
What make n model please? Not aware of these.

My saddle can only be tipped up or down. What do you have on your seat post to allow forward/backward movement?

Mtt

My Conquest is sprung like your Champion flyer: Mine has a little lateral movement in the saddle but being sprung I guess it should have so I'm not tightening anything; I've only 1300 miles on it so its a mere babe.
What did help me was making some very fine adjustments to my cockpit length. By moving my saddle slightly forward and by raising my adjustable headstem I have a much more comfortable riding position. My sit bones feel better placed and my Conquest's width ( similar to your Champion's I guess ) is an asset (!) as opposed to a hinderance (!)

[Matt2matt2002]

Thanks Jim
That clickfit arm doesn't raise my Go-pro very high or is it very rigid. I get a bit of camera wobble from it and the Cateye light I attach does not clear my bar-bag.
Nice idea but think carefully before buying.

Thanks for the saddle suggestion. I'll ride it a few 100 miles before tweaking.

What do you think about a longer bat stem to give me more room between saddle and bars?
I am in too much of am up-right position

Matt

I don't think tightening that tensioning bolt will narrow the saddle up at all. One thing you could try, if you really want, is lacing the saddle. You would drill half a dozen holes or so along the bottom edge of each side and run some shoe lace between the sides to snug up the distance. But really, both lacing and retensioning are generally things you do with a well-worn saddle, to relieve the sag that develops as the leather stretches one way or another.

The classical solution to the positioning problem is to get a new seat post with a larger lay-back. Not an inexpensive solution, of course!

That extension Click-fit arm looks nifty. I didn't know those existed! Looks perfect for the go-pro!

The only problem I see with that short front brake cable housing - it looks from the photo a bit like that brake noodle isn't seated so securely? There should really be no question of that somehow jostling out of position! If the cable housing were tugging on that to pull it out of line somehow, that would seem worth addressing. Of course if the housing leaves the lever housing too sharply, up at the bars, then that might stress the cable and make for a wear problem. Anyway it's hard to tell exactly from the photos.... just a couple things to double check maybe.

[JimK]

You can always slide the saddle rails forward and backward through the clamp on the seat post... but from your photos it sure looks like you have yours all the way back.

Yeah a longer stem is certainly a simple way to get more length. But if you just feel too upright, maybe you just want to lower the bars? From your photo, it looks like your grips are above the level of your saddle. Just move a few of those spacers from the below the stem to above the stem. I would probably put a couple between the auxiliary bar and the stem, too! Give you more room in there.

There is some rule, I forget exactly... like put your elbow up against the nose of the saddle, with your forearm horizontal... your fingertips should just reach the handlebar? I will have to look that up. But anyway if you just feel too high, rather than too cramped, then maybe lowering the bars is the thing to try. Ultimately you could flip the stem, too. That will lower the bars a lot - maybe more than you want!

yeah, take a look at: http://www.lmb.org/?option=com_content&view=article&Itemid=216&id=183:how-to-fit-a-bike

[JimK]

That finger-tip rule of thumb is really for drop bars. You'll probably want your finger tips to line up with the grips or even be a bit short of the grips.

Here is a crazy photo of my bikes. The grips on my Thorn line up along the drop bars of my 520 just a bit short of the hoods.

[Danneaux]

Hi Matt!

Terrific photos you took; they really do illustrate the issues you're facing.

Others have offered good suggestions about the more obvious things, so I will tackle the more obscure, heavily influenced by my own experience.  

I have found it best when setting-up my bikes to use saddle height and saddle fore-aft adjustment to address my relationship to the bottom bracket. I do that first. In my case, that almost always means a seatpost with large layback if I am also using a Brooks saddle...because their rail placement is a legacy of their genesis in an era when bikes had much slacker seat tube angles than we see presently.

Once I've set my position in relationship to the bottom bracket, *then* I set my relationship to the handlebars. This also includes my reach and the forward angle of my back.

[My preferred setup is pretty easy: I like my (drop) handlebar-tops about the same height as my saddle-top. With my hands resting atop the brake hoods (my most-used position), my back leans forward at 45° to horizontal when viewed as a line drawn from shoulder joint to hip joint compared to a flat plane, and a line drawn from my hands to my shoulder joint is also 45°. This just feels right to me and apportions the load equally between my hands and bottom.]

There is a lot of mythology and rules of thumb about fitment that are just that -- rules of thumb that don't apply equally to everyone or every situation. In 1978, I recall the common practice was to fit a stem of a length necessary to obscure the front hub when holding onto drop handlebars. This did nothing wrt body positioning or arm length, and it was never clearly stated *where* the handlebars were to be grasped at the time. Far better to set the bike up so it is comfortable and efficient for you, no matter the means. It helps to start with a properly sized frame, then take each measurement in turn and in light of other adjustments.

Too often, I've seen people slide the saddle forward or back to adjust reach. Of course this can work and sometimes accidentally puts one in a better position overall, but one should be aware it also changes the relationship between feet/legs and the bottom bracket, the axis of rotation. If you set that relationship first, than it is much easier to address reach and body angle as separate issues.

Oh! I can offer one observation about Brooks saddle width: They are handmade, and some are notably wider in the "waist" than others. I prefer mine to be as narrow as possible in that place to prevent chafing, but it doesn't always happen. I usually return (if unused) or trade or sell-on examples I find too-wide there, but yes, lacing offers a means to draw the saddle in at the sides,but I would suggest treatingt he saddle with a light coating or Proofide or by some other means first so the leather isn't completely dry. Please don't use the tension nut. The saddles arrive close to the maximum tension needed when new, and adding more can have unintended consequences. An acquaintance tried to narrow his new saddle via the tension nut and managed to pull the leather in two just behind the nosepiece. The saddle was fresh and new and untreated and the added tension exceeded the elasticity of the leather fibers. I hadn't thought it possible, but with threads remaining and enough turns of the nut...!

All the best,

Dan.

[Matt2matt2002]

Thanks Dan & co.
As always, lots to think about.
Sometimes I think I enjoy tinkering with the bike as much as riding it!
Almost.....
 

Matt

[phopwood]

I had a similar problem with my RST frame.  I felt to far forward and also I could not get the saddle level, so I invested in one of these http://www.freshtripe.co.uk/Freshtripe/Seats%20&%20Seatposts_files/VO%20GC%20seatpost-3.jpg  it allows more rearward adjustment and better up down adjustment.

As Dan says the position of the saddle is directly related to the position of the bottom bracket which can move if you have an eccentric bottom bracket.


Peter

[rualexander]

Is your old ssddle definitely a B17?
It doesn't look like one to me, certainly not a recent model.
It has copper rivets so must be a 'Special' if it is, but it doesn't have the three holes along the top that the B17 has.
How old is it?
Compare it to this picture of a current B17 Special from the top http://www.oipolloi.com/brooks-england-b17-special-saddle-british-green-leather completely different.
The 'radius' of the rivets on the frame is different too.
Does it have bag loops?
I reckon its a different model, thats why its narrower.

[geocycle]

I think it's a team pro, a very nice one at that. These are narrower than b17 and do not have the saddlebag loops.

[in4]

its got champion flyer embossed on it  

oops! 40w moment there.

[rualexander]

its got champion flyer embossed on it 

That's his new saddle, it's the old one that doesn't look like a B17.