Author Topic: Chain Flutter on Rohloff Bike?  (Read 19533 times)

eblair

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Chain Flutter on Rohloff Bike?
« on: June 29, 2006, 10:06:33 PM »
I have a (non-Thorn) Rohloff bike.

At certain cadences--roughly between 80-100--and high force I sense a short flutter or vibration through the frame/cranks during the power downstroke of each leg. A sort of "thrr,thrr,thrr". Not a noise, more like a resonance. And only on the quarter of the revolution when each leg is pressing hard.

It is independent of bike speed--I can get it at five mph up steep hills or 25 mph if I'm really cranking hard. It will happen in all 14 gears. The only factors are cadence and pedal force. If I slow the cadence, or spin  with less force the flutter subsides.

So it would seem that the only things that are directly linked to cadence and force are the bottom bracket/crank, the chainring, the pedals, and the chain. As far as I can tell the bracket/crank, chainring, and pedals are fine. I've replaced the chain and have adjusted its tension from quite loose to quite tight with no effect. I still get the flutter.

My only theory is that the the upper run of the chain--which is under tension--has a resonant frequency that causes a mild flutter at certain combinations of tension and frequency of pedalling. I've found suggestions on the net that this can occur; I know that some power meters use chain vibration frequency to measure tension (and hence power); and the effect _feels_ like it could be a chain resonance.

I don't recall this effect on any other bikes, only on my Rohloff. (The fact that the Rohloff has no chain tensioner shouldn't matter, one would think, if the _upper_ part of the chain is what resonates, and only the lower part is affected by a chain tensioner.)

Has anyone else experienced this on his bike, Rohloff or not? Is there anything to do about it? (In theory the resonant frequency should depend on the length of the upper chain which is fixed; the tension, which is what it is when you pedal; and the square root of the mass of the chain. I suppose I could get a heavier chain--I use an 8 speed 3/32"--but that would only lower the frequency a little, I would think.)

 

stutho

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Re: Chain Flutter on Rohloff Bike?
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2006, 08:33:28 AM »
Hi eblair.

Can't say I have had this problem (I ride a Thorn Raven) but several people in the past have claimed they can feel vibration coming back off the hub - through the pedals.  

Two questions.
Is your hub new?  (i.e. <2000 miles)
What is your peddling style, are you a spinner or a stomper?  (Just for comparison)
« Last Edit: June 30, 2006, 11:14:10 AM by stutho »

max

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Re: Chain Flutter on Rohloff Bike?
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2006, 11:35:16 AM »
I've felt something which sounds like this on derailleur-equipped bikes. I'd put it down to the chain 'bedding in' to the teeth on the chainring, as I hadn't noticed it was restricted to a cadence range, just the high force - but what you describe is just like what I've felt - the 'thrr, thrr'!  The resonance theory seems plausible to a non-engineer.
 

eblair

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Re: Chain Flutter on Rohloff Bike?
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2006, 03:27:41 AM »
I don't think the problem comes from the hub. The frequency is tied to the pedal strokes only, not to the rear wheel speed or gear selected.

As to mileage, the hub has about 800 miles on it.

"Stomper" vs "spinner" is tough. I'm torn between "weak stomper" and "ragged spinner". At age 61 and 165 pounds (not to mention an artificial hip) I don't think I'm overstressing the bike. I do almost always keep the cadence at 80-90.
 

graham

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Re: Chain Flutter on Rohloff Bike?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2006, 08:45:52 PM »
If you've done 800 miles on the hub and the chain was new at the same time, I would think that the chain has now worn slightly and is hitting the chainring teeth as it engages. You probably notice it more with a Rohloff hub, because generally it is actually a lot quieter than most (generally poorly maintained) deraileurs. My Raven tour has done about the same and I can now start to feel and hear the noise of the chain. And intend to change it very soon, because I'll be wearing my chainring now as well.
I think the idea of keeping a set of chains for a bike and rotating them every 500 miles sounds good, and one I intend to start doing. Chain seems to last about 2000 miles for us on the tandem, and if we wear a chain right out and then replace it, we need a new chainring by the time the second chain is worn out. I'd expect to do a lot better than that by rotating several chains.
 

PH

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Re: Chain Flutter on Rohloff Bike?
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2006, 01:21:12 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by eblair

I don't think the problem comes from the hub. The frequency is tied to the pedal strokes only, not to the rear wheel speed or gear selected.




I'm not sure how it would be possible to distinguish between the two.  The drivetrain on a hub gear in affect becomes one unit.
I think I may have experienced what you describe, it doesn't bother me so I haven't paid enough attention to notice a pattern.

PH

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Re: Chain Flutter on Rohloff Bike?
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2006, 01:37:21 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by graham


My Raven tour has done about the same and I can now start to feel and hear the noise of the chain. And intend to change it very soon, because I'll be wearing my chainring now as well.



[:0]
My Raven is coming up to 10,000 miles, I've no intention of changing the chain till it needs it.  When I do I'll also turn the sprocket and chainring round.  So a minimum of 20,000 miles will use 2 chains, 1 chainring and 1 sprocket, about £80.
One of the main reasons for me to run a hub geared bike is the ease of maintenance and the economy of running costs.  If it required the same care and expense as my derailleur bike to keep running smoothly, I wouldn't bother.

freddered

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Re: Chain Flutter on Rohloff Bike?
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2006, 07:08:31 PM »
Check out my Topic (Drive Train Clicking) in Thorn General category.  I basically reversed the chain and reseated the cranks.  Now it's back to its previous silence.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 07:08:59 PM by freddered »
 

stutho

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Re: Chain Flutter on Rohloff Bike?
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2006, 12:28:33 AM »
PH:
What chain are you running?

I am at about 2000 miles on a SRAM 68 with very little ware (<1/32) BUT 10000 miles I am impressed! Didn’t think they would last that long.

PH

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Re: Chain Flutter on Rohloff Bike?
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2006, 11:49:36 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by stutho

PH:
What chain are you running?

I am at about 2000 miles on a SRAM 68 with very little ware (<1/32) BUT 10000 miles I am impressed! Didn’t think they would last that long.



Same here I think, the all nickel plated SRAM one.  I've kept it fairly clean and very well oiled, which probably helps.  When it does wear out I'll replace it with this one that my LBS highly recommend.  

My derailleur bike gets a new chain after about 3,000 miles and a new cassette every 2nd or 3rd chain. I find it's easy to get it wrong and wear out a cassette with the first chain.

stutho

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Re: Chain Flutter on Rohloff Bike?
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2006, 10:00:02 PM »
I get about the same as you on my derailleur. Hope I get the same on the Rohloff.  I have never tried a Wippermann chain.