Another Rohloff questions

[TimCPike]

While all the experts are assembled:

I was wondering, why has there not been an audax bike/fast tourer equipped with a hub gear?

This led me to believe that one of the following must be the answer (this is where you all correct me):

The Rohloff system adds too much weight to the bike

Suitable gear ratios are not available

If they break down the bike becomes completely unridable

They have a tendency to break

Maintenance is awkward/requires oddball tools

The gear shifter can't be suitably mounted onto such a bike*

Audax is a British thing and hub gearing is a continental thing (and they just haven't met)*

They cost a lot

Only those marked * would seem to carry any weight to me, which leaves me with a question in my mind of "so?" and "well they could easily get round it is they wanted/there was a bit of demand".

Now with the otherwise reduced maintenance from the lack of chain wear/road grime getting into all the moving parts surely it would be more suitable for long distance riders who don't have the time to suffer mechanical failures.

Any thoughts people?

[PeLu]

quote:Originally posted by TimCPike

While all the experts are assembled:

I was wondering, why has there not been an audax bike/fast tourer equipped with a hub gear?

look at:
http://tandem-fahren.de/Mitglieder/Christoph_Timm/transalp2001.html

This may answer a few of you questions. According to Dipl. Ing.

The Rohloff system adds too much weight to the bike

This may be a reason for some weightweenies, but it is actually less than most people think.

Suitable gear ratios are not available

What else do you want to have as even steps throughout the whole range? Maybe larger steps at both ends....
If the steps are too large, you may use double chainwheels (and sacrifying some of the advantages).

If they break down the bike becomes completely unridable

They have a tendency to break

According to Carsten Geck, Rohloff, Product Manager, there is no broken Speedhub up to last February or so (and I have no other message read in the meanwhile). Does anybody know about one failing? (not things like oil leaking or shift cable breaking).

Maintenance is awkward/requires oddball tools

Only maintenance is changing the oil from time to time and turning the  sprocket around (or changing it).

The gear shifter can't be suitably mounted onto such a bike*

There are solutions, as posted in another thread here, but it is actually an issue.

Audax is a British thing and hub gearing is a continental thing (and they just haven't met)*

I think hub gearing is more of a British tradition than a continental thing. The British hubgears where the world's best for about half a century.

They cost a lot

Probably.

PeLu

[TimCPike]

quote:Originally posted by PeLu

quote:Originally posted by TimCPike

While all the experts are assembled:

I was wondering, why has there not been an audax bike/fast tourer equipped with a hub gear?

look at:
http://tandem-fahren.de/Mitglieder/Christoph_Timm/transalp2001.html

This may answer a few of you questions. According to Dipl. Ing.

The Rohloff system adds too much weight to the bike

This may be a reason for some weightweenies, but it is actually less than most people think.

Suitable gear ratios are not available

What else do you want to have as even steps throughout the whole range? Maybe larger steps at both ends....
If the steps are too large, you may use double chainwheels (and sacrifying some of the advantages).

If they break down the bike becomes completely unridable

They have a tendency to break

According to Carsten Geck, Rohloff, Product Manager, there is no broken Speedhub up to last February or so (and I have no other message read in the meanwhile). Does anybody know about one failing? (not things like oil leaking or shift cable breaking).

Maintenance is awkward/requires oddball tools

Only maintenance is changing the oil from time to time and turning the  sprocket around (or changing it).

The gear shifter can't be suitably mounted onto such a bike*

There are solutions, as posted in another thread here, but it is actually an issue.

Audax is a British thing and hub gearing is a continental thing (and they just haven't met)*

I think hub gearing is more of a British tradition than a continental thing. The British hubgears where the world's best for about half a century.

They cost a lot

Probably.

PeLu

I couldn't see much water held by most of the suggestions I had made. The only thing that seemed to make sense to me was "it's not the done thing".

Just pondering how to build up a frame at the moment (to cope with commuting/light loads/riding briskly/most milage bike) and couldn't see much to fault hub gearing, all the logic points to it wearing better, particularly on the filthy roads we have around our way.

[John]

I've been running a Sachs Super seven on a fast tourer for years and Simano XT with an Ultegra cassette on another. I've also tried a Rohloff so here goes.

Gears are too far apart on the hub gears when travelling fast. Only 6% reduction in cadence going up a gear at 40 km/h on the Ultegra cassette and 12% on the worst change. Bigger gaps on the hub gears. On the Sachs the gaps get closer away from the direct drive 4th which helps.

The efficiency in the lower gears is awful in the mountains. They feel rough (especially the Rohloff)and hard work compared with XT.

So why does the Sachs hub geared bike do more Kms? Because after 20000 km I still haven't done more than change the chain and cog despite using it whenever it rains. Fit and forget.

[OHUI]

TimCPike, I've asked myself the same question re rohloff's and audax bikes. I've got a Thorn Raven and have found the Rohloff to be genuinely completely and utterly faultless. The bike's been used in all weathers for commuting, very heavily laden sometimes at that, and for long-distance rides both on an off road. Maintanence? almost nothing required so far. Delightful though high-spec derailleur systems may be for the few hundred miles they stayed tuned at a time they seem ante-diluvian by comparison with Rohloff.
John, my experience of some serious long hills with the Rohloff has been a revelation - no problems with changing gear under pressure, no problems with changing gear while stationary should you need to start again on a very steep section. Any slight difference in efficiency between the first and second set of seven gears is soon forgotten in the joyous way it just works flawlessly always. As you say of the Sachs, it is just fit and forget.

[Billy]

So a custom made frame (Mercian, Woodrup Bob Jackson or other) made to take a Rohloof is a good idea?

[Andrew]

quote:Originally posted by TimCPike

While all the experts are assembled:

I was wondering, why has there not been an audax bike/fast tourer equipped with a hub gear?

This led me to believe that one of the following must be the answer (this is where you all correct me):

The Rohloff system adds too much weight to the bike

The Rohloff system alone weighs the same as a Shimano XT transmission

Suitable gear ratios are not available

The hub has a 526% range... that's equivalent to a 3x9 (11-32... 26/36/46) set-up @ 537%... a 3x9 mtb set-up (11-34... 22-32-44) is 618%. The Rohloff is evenly spaced with a 13.6 % avearage differance between gears.

If they break down the bike becomes completely unridable

The only thing that could possibly go wrong when riding is you could break the gear cable if you had a poor cable run. Even if this happened you could change gear with two bits of string! If you broke the cable where it went into the hub and had no spares you could change gear with an 8mm spanner!

They have a tendency to break

Rohloff have never had an internal failure in the 10 years they have produced the hub, and cannot tell us the service life because they haven't worn one out yet!  They do guarantee it will run a minimum of 80,000km

Maintenance is awkward/requires oddball tools

Simple oil change once a year... pop the flush in... pedal it for 3 minutes... empty the oil out and refill using the syringe. If you forget one year... change it the next! ... That's it!!!

The gear shifter can't be suitably mounted onto such a bike*

We offer two options: 1. split drop bar option - drop bars of mtb diameter that are joined together using our CNC bracket and mount in an oversized (30.75mm) stem... this option is quite a compromise because the only bars available have a long reach and no anatomic drop. 2. mounting the shifter on our accessory bar (50 or 100mm extension)... this is the best compromise as you can fit any anatomic bar and gives a convenient shift position... this is an 80 GBP upgrade

Audax is a British thing and hub gearing is a continental thing (and they just haven't met)*

Watch this space!

They cost a lot

The hub itself costs from 650-700 GBP depending on the specification, this is only 200 GBP more than a Shimano XT set-up. You'll easily reap the rewards of the initial investment... any you won't have to spend hours cleaning your delicate derailleur set-up!

The Thorn Raven Tour is available from 1099 GBP for Laden touring, commuting etc. (think Nomad with a Rohloff)
The Thorn Raven Sport Tour is available from 1299 GBP for Audax, light touring commuting etc. (think XTC with a Rohloff)

We've just started to offer the ultra short wheelbase Raven Mercury... custom build only from approx. 2000 GBP

Only those marked * would seem to carry any weight to me, which leaves me with a question in my mind of "so?" and "well they could easily get round it is they wanted/there was a bit of demand".

Now with the otherwise reduced maintenance from the lack of chain wear/road grime getting into all the moving parts surely it would be more suitable for long distance riders who don't have the time to suffer mechanical failures.

Any thoughts people?

[Stijn]

Here’s another one in favor of the Rohloff. I’ve owned one for two years, and am totally addicted to riding it.

However:

·  The Rohloff system adds too much weight to the bike

This is in my eyes a disadvantage of the Rohloff over a derailleur system. Since the weight is mainly adding mass to the wheel which is a worse place to have weight, something to do with the "Moment of inertia" of a wheel.

·  Suitable gear ratios are not available

I do agree here too, the gear ratios are (to) far apart.

·  If they break down the bike becomes completely unridable

This is a issue as well, everything will break down sooner or later, fingers crossed not to soon.

·  They have a tendency to break.

Appearantly they haven’t yet, but inevitably will.

·  Maintenance is awkward/requires oddball tools

True, the sprocket removal tool which is tiny and cheap

·  The gear shifter can’t be suitably mounted onto such a bike*

Not a problem on a straight bar.

·  Audax is a British thing and hub gearing is a continental thing (and they just haven't met)*

Rohloff marketed the hub mainly first in Germany, hence their manuals having been in German only, for a while, maybe because the German market for pushbikes is so much bigger.

·  They cost a lot

True, especially when you want the frame for it as well. Although, as Andrew pointed out, the Thorn Raven Tour is available from 1099 GBP, best Rohloff deal I know and I've checked a couple of the German sites too.

[Sprocket]

To quote Stijn "This is in my eyes a disadvantage of the Rohloff over a derailleur system. Since the weight is mainly adding mass to the wheel which is a worse place to have weight, something to do with the "Moment of inertia" of a wheel."

I wouldn't worry about the rotating weight of a Rohloff, Stijn. The inertia problems are mainly related to the outer parts of the wheel, the rim and tyre. Even a large mass such as a hub gear doesn't have much effect, as it is at the centre of the wheel. In fact, as the Rohloff uses 32 spokes rather than the usual 36, it may have inertial and aerodynamic advantages.

[James]

I'm still waiting to see the Raven Sport Tour brochure on the web site. When will it be avaiable?

[Frenchie]

quote:Originally posted by Sprocket

To quote Stijn "This is in my eyes a disadvantage of the Rohloff over a derailleur system. Since the weight is mainly adding mass to the wheel which is a worse place to have weight, something to do with the "Moment of inertia" of a wheel."

I wouldn't worry about the rotating weight of a Rohloff, Stijn. The inertia problems are mainly related to the outer parts of the wheel, the rim and tyre. Even a large mass such as a hub gear doesn't have much effect, as it is at the centre of the wheel. In fact, as the Rohloff uses 32 spokes rather than the usual 36, it may have inertial and aerodynamic advantages.

Exactly. This is no argument.

I ride a Raven daily and it feels anything but a slouch. I can't fault the system for a utility/fast touring bike (my usage for the bike).