First "tour" - observations and lessons learned

[navrig]

I am, yet again, amazed at the help provided on this forum.  Many thanks guys.

I can't respond to every point but in general:

Weather- I expect to have a full range of cool (Northern Spain (around Pyrenese) in April through to Greece in June.  I am looking for a down gilet to cope with the short spell of cooler.  I can then post it home if I and bothered by it's bulk.  Any suggestions for a down gilet which packs down well?

It is going to get progressively hotter as I head down the Adriatic Coast with the end destination of Athens by end of June (Schengen allowances should be OK although with Croatia scheduled to join next year it is getting tighter).

Water - This is bothering me.  I currently have 2 bottle cages and am looking into adding a third under the down tube.  My target is averaging 50 miles a day and I intend to have proper towns at the start and end of each day so should be able to leave with full bottles and me fully hydrated.  I may have to adapt my water strategy as I go.

Funnily enough I bought a Lezyne Micro Floor Drive a few months ago specifically for this trip.

Credit cards - I have 3 and have full internet access to both bank and CC company apps.

Accommodation - hostels most of the way with hotels in Albania where there seems to be few hostels and where hotels are cheaper.

GPS - I am currently using a Wahoo Elemnt with Komoot as a mapping app.  It seems to work fine although the screen and TBT instructions are not brilliant.

Footwear - I have very good trekking sandals and am used to wearing them for sustained periods after a year in the middle east and a year in south east asia however I think I'll take trail trainers as they offer more support.  I'll live with sweaty feet.

Bulk & spare clothing - I aim to take as little as possible and recycle evening clothes over a few days.  I have planned on cycling 5 days in 7 as an average leaving 2 days for sight seeing and laundry.  I used my road bibshorts over this mini-tour and it was comfortable.  My arse generally copes with saddles and long days even without pads so I am thinking I may also take a pair of touring shorts.  So I m not so concerned about bulk especially as I wont have a sleeping bag, stove or tent.

Mileage and progress - I would be interested to hear others' views on this.  The overall trip is 4000km (EuroVelo8 mostly), Santander to Athens.  It is a holiday with a bike rather than a biking holiday so I want to see and experience stuff on the way round.  I have allowed 12 weeks and cycling 5 days per week at 80km per day.  This gives 400km a week and 10 weeks giving me 2 weeks spare.  My wife is considering coming out to Albania for 2 weeks to met me and have a holiday.

How does that sound?

Over this mini-tour I averaged 96km over the highlands and lowlands of Scotland and average 20km/h on 3 days and 17km/h on the day when the heat was very high and I started later (1000 instead of 0730).  20km/h felt fine although my luggage was not at full tour weight.

It's not a race and I recognise that everyone is different.

What do experienced tourers generally achieve?

[navrig]

This was the bike loaded for the mini-tour.  Compared to some of the bikes I've seen on here it is very light!

[mickeg]

... and I've been looking at a Sea to Summit one with a breathable fabric panel in the bottom to squeeze air out of.  ...

I have some of those that are made by Granite Gear.  Not sure if that brand is sold in your country or not.
https://www.granitegear.com/event-sil-compression-drysack.html

I am pretty happy with them.  I am getting ready for a backpacking trip, just yesterday I put my sleeping bag, sleeping bag liner, down vest, neck gaiter and stocking cap in one.

Most of my trips use waterproof panniers or a waterproof backpack, but when it comes to keeping your down bag dry, redundancy does not hurt any.

[John Saxby]

Hi Navrig,

Just a few odds & ends to add to what's already been mentioned:

i)   Water & related:  On longer tours through country where fresh water is not so readily available, I've packed a 2-ltr bladder (mine is made by MSR).  And, water purification tablets.  Sometimes those have a noticeable taste.  I also use "Hydralyte" electrolyte tabs (made in Australia, but available here in Ontario -- not sure about UK & Europe.)  The Hydralyte tabs also deal with the taste issue.  And, unlike other electrolyte tabs sold here, they haven't left black mould on the inside of my water bottles.

ii)   Down gilet:  Obviously depends on your metabolism & preferences, but I live in a place with a 60º-plus swing betw winter and summer, and the only down gear I use is a couple of sleeping bags.  I find that a lightweight fleece vest (100-weght polarfleece) over a merino base layer and a waterproof-breathable shell outer layer works well for anything down to about -10, depending on the wind. Below that, I just increase the weight of the merino and the fleece vest. 

      For touring in N American spring and autumn, I carry a 100-wt fleece vest.  In the summer, and in mountainous terrain, I use a lighter still polyester longsleeved jersey.

iii)  Cord:  I may have missed this item in the gear lists above, but I usually carry about 25 ft of parachute cord or something similar.  Ideal for a line for end-of-day washing strung betw a couple of trees.

Enjoy your big safari!

[mickeg]

Distance, sounds like a nice relaxing trip.  My distances vary a lot, usually I pick a campground I want to go to and go to it.

My last tour was five weeks, that included several no-travel days.  The no-travel days, mostly were due to rain or high wind.  I had 6 days over 60 miles, 10 days over 50 miles (includes those days over 60), 12 days over 40 miles, and 12 days were less than 40 miles.  Thus, a median of 40 miles.  Windbound for 3 days, enough rain I chose not to travel on 3 days, and 3 days for sightseeing.

I use my Garmin 64 (a recreational grade gps, not a cycling specific one) to pick the route using the tour cycling option, but sometimes that is a crazy route.  Then I see what the route looks like using automobile routing.  If I do not like that I try Komoot cycling.  Sometimes Komoot gives me something crazy, then I pick a good intermediate point that makes sense on the map and add that to the route.  Sometimes I use Maps.Me on my android phone, automobile routing.  And when all those look bad, I look at the paper highway map.  I was surprised on my last tour how often the local road was better and shorter than the other highways that the computerized routing wanted me to take, I think that community roads are lower in the electronic prioritization so I think they are sometimes bypassed when they are in fact the best option.

In your photo, I can't see if you have flashing taillight or not.  I like a flasher in back where legal, which is most places.

I usually use fenders (mudguards) when touring.  But when I have flown somewhere they are too bulky to pack, so those trips either did not have or had tiny ones.

Do you have a rear view mirror?  You might have noticed I have one in my photo with my yellow glasses, I prefer helmet mounting.

A drybag in teh 10 to 15 liter range strapped on top of the rear rack can come in handy if you suddenly have some bulk, like that big box of sale priced croissants that lasted for about five days on my last tour.  Empty it can be folded up and shoved in the pannier when not in use.

I try to put my panniers just barely back enough to avoid heel strike, with maybe an extra 20mm of extra clearance as contingency.  Your panniers look much further back than that, but maybe you have a really large shoe size.

[PH]

I've never done a month long tour. let alone anything longer, I did have a plan to spend eight weeks in Scotland prior to the pandemic, but if it ever happens it's unlikely to be before 2024.  So my solo 10 - 20 day tours tend to be a bit higher mileage, the type where you come back knackered and have to go to work for a rest.  Your 50 miles a day, for 5 out of 7 sound a good base plan, though I expect circumstance will vary it over the months.  It sounds great.

Any suggestions for a down gilet which packs down well?

Mine came from Uniqlo, I like their stuff in general, there's nothing identical in the current range, but this isn't far off, I like how thin it is, so it can be worn under a jacket and I've slept in it more than once
https://www.uniqlo.com/uk/en/product/men-ultra-light-down-compact-vest-2020-season-429285.html?dwvar_429285_color=COL08&cgid=IDdown2165

I don't take it touring, but I also have the jacket version of this synthetic gillet, which has an impressive warmth to weight ratio
https://www.craghoppers.com/mens-expert-expolite-thermal-vest-dark-navy-1/

GPS - I am currently using a Wahoo Elemnt with Komoot as a mapping app.  It seems to work fine although the screen and TBT instructions are not brilliant.

I use a Garmin Touring, though it's looking like it might not last much longer... I don't bother with TBT, I download as a track rather than a route which gives an unchanging line on the map.  That way I can bee of route and still have it visible without any re-routing or beeping! The only exception to that is when I need specific directions to a campsite or supermarket or bike shop.  I;m trying to get to grips with the OsMand app on my phone, as a back up if not primary. Which reminds me, I was reading elsewhere that water taps are a feature on OSM maps, which might be useful.

This was the bike loaded for the mini-tour.  Compared to some of the bikes I've seen on here it is very light!

it isn't a competition, but this is my camping load for a couple of weeks UK touring
Tiroll sunshine by Paul, on Flickr

[martinf]

Water.

I have 3 bottle cages, one takes a 1.5l bottle, the other two 1l.

In my experience that is enough for drinking most of the time in reasonably civilised places in Europe.

When I cycled in a (minor according to todays standards) heat wave (30-32°C) I added two more 1l bottles for a total of 4.5l that fitted in the spare space in my panniers.

In hot weather I fill up whenever possible. In France or Spain I nearly always found an accessible tap marked "eau potable" (or the Spanish equivalent) in plenty of time to keep a reasonable reserve. On the rare occasions when I didn't I knocked on a door and asked one of the locals, never been refused yet. Sometimes I stopped in a bar or restaurant, and paid for a drink or had a meal, and asked to fill my water bottles before leaving. 

If I think I might be doing some wild camping I have a 4l water pouch, that weighs about 120g empty. The idea here is to fill all the bottles and the pouch an hour or two before looking for a camping spot. In most circumstances 7.5 to 9.5 litres is plenty for cooking, dishwashing and drinking, with some left over for very limited personal hygiene use.

For higher temperatures, or for crossing long stretches of desert or uninhabited land, you would need much more. Last Monday I had to cycle for a bit less than an hour in 38-40°C shade temperatures. Taking it slowly I stopped 4 times to drink and used 1.5 litres of water. This was a "transport" ride, if touring I would be resting under a tree or somewhere else in the shade, waiting to carry on when the temperature dropped.

I don't bother taking water purification tablets any more. They might be useful in very sparsely-populated places with abundant natural water (Northern Scandinavia?, wild camping in the higher parts of the Pyrenees, etc.) or in places where you don't trust the water the locals drink (maybe some parts of Eastern Europe?)

[Danneaux]

For higher temperatures, or for crossing long stretches of desert or uninhabited land, you would need much more.

<nods> Yep. When crossing America's Great Basin deserts -- particularly Nevada's Black Rock playa in summer -- I find 26.5 liters is about a 3-day supply at 8.5 litrs/day with 1 liter reserve. My Nomad typically has two 1 liter Zefal Magnum bottles co-located in cages on the steerer, three 1.5 liter bottles on the frame and two 10l MSR Dromedary water bags in reserve.

I take pH strips to first check the water is not too alkaline to drink. If it passes that test, then I use a cut-off section of pantyhose to filter it to mostly clear if it is cloudy (often the case in cattle troughs and watering holes), then use my Steripen for 1-2 full cycles, depending; the AA batteries are (re)charged by my dynohub/charger or my solar panel. Backup is chlorine and/or iodine tablets or drops and as a last resort, boiling (takes precious fuel but not so much if I simply prepare more than the minimum needed to reconstitute my evening meal). Giardia and water-borne hepatitis are the two big hazards where I go and so far, these precautions have worked to keep me well. Always a good idea to slop a little of the purified water over the rim of your vessel to wash away any contamination on the outside. Even a single drop can cause some real distress later.

Best, Dan.

[Danneaux]

My load and contents vary depending on how far, how long, and where I go and this in turn determines the bike, bags, and packing scheme. I always prefer to go self-supported and solo camping on my own, usually in wild or stealth camps.

If I have a reasonable chance of resupplying water and food every day or other day in moderate weather conditions, then my "ultralight" setup based on a Carradice Camper Longflap with or without an added handlebar bag works nicely no matter the bike I choose, but works especially well with my lighter bikes. See...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11787.msg85858#msg85858

Lighter bikes tend to be ridden further/faster each day then heavier ones, so you can cover more ground and will be more likely to find opportunities for resupply. This can be a great strategy for a mostly paved-road tour near civilization but is not appropriate for back-of-beyond tours where you might only find water every 3 days and food every 2-3 weeks. For that, you need...

...The other extreme; here is my Nomad Mk2 outfitted as it typically appears on extended/expedition tours...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4523.msg99552#msg99552

I have sometimes added a one-wheel Extrawheel trailer/Ortlieb BikePacker panniers for extra water and food-carrying capacity and for the extra charging capacity (the trailer has its own SON dynohub and charger)...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4953.0

All the rest of my touring falls somewhere between these extremes as I select among my bikes to choose a favored one to suit a given tour. For example, my Enduro-Allroad bike ends up with a sort of bikepacking configuration using the Carradice Camper Longflap, handlebar bag and sometimes small front panniers. It has much of the Nomad's functionality at lighter weight but at the cost of less long-term reliability/longevity, lower cargo capacity and a rear derailleur that is hazardous to use when riding cross-country though brush and deadfall timber. I have double sets of Ortlieb BikePacker and SportPacker panniers and handlebar bags, so I can combine them on various bikes as need requires. One favorite "middle" setup uses four SportPackers, normally intended for use as smaller/front panniers and no HB bag at all.

One suggestion intended only to be helpful: If you check out the Forum's Cycle Tours board...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?board=26.0
...you'll often see descriptions and photos of the kit forum members use for their tours.

Best,

Dan.

[martinf]

Distance, temperature and clothing.

Distance depends on what you want to visit or observe, the weight of kit carried, and on your physical condition.

Nowadays (age 66) I reckon 90km is reasonable for me when cycle-camping in moderately hilly terrain, that is about 5 hours at 18 km/h.  I'd do the same distance happily in a morning putting in more effort on an unloaded bike at about 22 km/h.

11 years ago I did a 3,300 km tour in 27 days, which is an average of 122 km/day, including the "rest days".

But I trained for several months before going to get my fitness up, and my daily average speed and mileage varied a lot, with a maximum of 205 km in a very flat and relatively uninteresting area of France and much less in the Pyrenees, the Picos d'Europa and other mountainous bits I visited in Spain and Portugal.

Just pootling about on roads, paths and tracks, taking photos and looking at flora, fauna and buildings I was surprised to see that I had done 71 km on one of my "rest" days.  I did less on a couple of my "cycling" days, once when it rained heavily and I holed up early in a youth hostel to dry out, another time when it was very hot and I didn't feel like going far.

Shade temperatures ranged from 1°C to 35°C, with a maximum range of 32°C in one day.

I didn't take very much clothing - cycling shorts, cycling tights, merino tops, rain gear and a synthetic microfibre quilted jacket that I didn't use on the bike (synthetic because down doesn't like getting wet, either by rain or by sweat). I took a total of 3 pairs of socks, two thin and one thicker pair made of merino wool. So I washed something most nights. 

When very cold I put nearly all of it on, including some lightweight ski gloves (I had been warned to allow for sub-zero temperatures in the mountains). This was OK for 1°C and I could have gone down to about -10°C by adding the quilted jacket, rain trousers, breathable rain jacket and shoe covers.

When hot, just cycling shorts, a long-sleeve merino top and thin socks in my old-fashioned leather cycling shoes. For wearing all day, merino worked better for me than synthetic, as it was still reasonably comfortable when soaked in sweat, either from the heat or from condensation inside (breathable) raingear during heavy rain. 

[navrig]

One suggestion intended only to be helpful: If you check out the Forum's Cycle Tours board...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?board=26.0
...you'll often see descriptions and photos of the kit forum members use for their tours.

Best,

Dan.

Looks like I should have posted this thread in there - cheers

[Danneaux]

Looks like I should have posted this thread in there - cheers

No worries. Posts there tend to be specific to the trips people take while this thread is more general (Non-Thorn Related).

All good.

Best, Dan.

[martinf]

Distance depends on what you want to visit or observe, the weight of kit carried, and on your physical condition.

And the time available.

In 2011 I had specific sites I wanted to visit in northern Spain and north-west Portugal, and a maximum of 30 days off work to do the trip. I shortened the end of my trip by 3 days to get home quicker because my wife had been invalided home from her own one-month trip to Peru, so I did longer distances than originally planned during the last few days.