Rigida Andra 30 with "CSS" or without???

[Danneaux]

Oh! So sorry, Geo! 

Not the happiest way to demonstrate CSS stopping power.

Healing thoughts for a speedy recovery from the cuts and bruises.

All the best,

Dan.

[geocycle]

Oh! So sorry, Geo! 

Not the happiest way to demonstrate CSS stopping power.

Healing thoughts for a speedy recovery from the cuts and bruises.

All the best,

Dan.

Thanks Dan, nothing serious just a few scratches, ....oh and I'm recovering fine as well....

[StuntPilot]

Oh Oh Geo! Thats dry braking confirmed then - get well soon. Good to hear only a few cuts and bruises.

[mickeg]

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I have found using Kool-Stop salmon (all-salmon) pads on my bikes has proven "kinder" to rim and pad life than using other kinds or brands of pads.
...

I have heard that Salmon pads are better for wet braking on non-CSS rims, I switched to Salmon on my Sherpa on front and rear for general riding. 

But I put my CSS dynohub wheel (from my Nomad) on the Sherpa for my last tour, so I also changed the front pads to CSS pads for that tour.  A change that I will likely make for future tours due to the lack of a dynohub in my normal Sherpa wheel.

Maybe I should switch my rando bike to Salmon too?  And my new bike will be rim brake on front, maybe on that bike too?

I have worn out 4 small wheel rims (16") on my Bromptons and 9 large-wheel rims (the old 27" size and 650B).

This is just brake wear, not counting rims scrapped because of pothole damage, eyelets coming out, splits or other causes.

Average for the 4 small-wheel rims is just under 10,000 kms.

Average for the 9 large-wheel rims is 20,600 kms.

The longest distance I have had from a rim is 29,100 km.
...

Wow, that is exceptional rim wear.

I am building up a new bike now, it will have disc on rear and that will be my first disc brake.  Thus I am quite ignorant of disc brakes in general on bikes.  But, if I was having the amount of rim wear you are having, I probably would consider switching to discs.

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I think one other reason could be that in the UK there are many granite or quartz rock areas and when it rains the very fine slurry of granite/quartz powder acts to quickly wear the rim. It is mainly for that reason I am considering having CSS rims on front and back.
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Yeah, quartz is pretty hard on anything metal, especially Aluminum alloys.  In my area around home I do a lot of trail riding, the area is a mix of sedimentary rocks, limestones (soft), dolomites (medium/soft), shale (soft) and quart based sandstone (very abrasive and very hard).  So, I have a mix of hard and soft stuff to worry about for rim abrasion.  But I am fortunate that it is quite flat in my area, so very little braking is used.

As a data point I can confirm that the stopping power of CSS rims in the dry at least is amazing.  A car pulled in front of me this morning as I was overtaking a van parked in a cycle lane.  The bike went from 15mph to zero in less than 10m and avoided collision, unfortunately I did an extra 2m in the air but escaped with minor cuts and bruises.  The front brake locked the wheel propelling me over the bar.  I was actually quite impressed as the front rim is now highly polished after 22,000 miles.

I used to complain about the bad brakes on a bike I used to have, until I had a car cut me off and I lifted the rear wheel off the pavement with my braking.  Fortunately, I had only started out from a stop sign, was going quite slow so I did not go over the bars.  I stopped complaining about the brakes on that bike after that.

[Danneaux]

Maybe I should switch my rando bike to Salmon too?  And my new bike will be rim brake on front, maybe on that bike too?

In my experience, there is less wear if the Kool-Stop Salmon pads are used from the beginning. It seems surface of many rims is harder than the substrate, but this may be the result of solution heat-treating (rapid cooling as the rim is rolled after forming via extrusion), simple oxides, or anodizing. A favorite rim is the old Mavic MA-2 with a polished surface. I laid in a couple of spares and recently built one into a dynowheel for my favorite rando bike. In several thousand miles of use, the surface still looks virtually new (photo below). The brake pads have been exceptionally long-lived as well. These are the Scott-Mathauser pads I installed in 1984, still going strong. They have the same compound as the Kool-Stop Salmons. I have several more sets from the same 1980-84 timeframe and they remain in good shape also. Also included is a shot of the well-used rear rim with Scott-Mathauser (salmon) pads. Pad mounting hardware reversed on the rear Scott-Pedersen SE self-energizing cantis to accommodate the switch from the original 27in rims to 700C.

Best,

Dan.

[Matt2matt2002]

Stunt pilot.
No. Not front and rear.
Ever.
And someone will jump in soon and say how SJS now suggest/ insist on a combo.
I have given up counting the number of times I have said to myself that I'll spend whatever to get them changed.
But then, I ride in mostly dry weather ( yes, I know, I live in Scotland ) and the draw dropping panic attacks are infrequent.
One day, when I get both wheels sorted for a RTW tour, I'll take the financial plunge.

[julk]

Fantastic braking in the dry.
I had both and eventually suffered the lack of braking in heavy rain on very wet roads.

Quite upsetting at the time…

Got the front rim changed for a non CSS and now ride in the rain with confidence again.
Julian

[martinf]

Wow, that is exceptional rim wear.

I am building up a new bike now, it will have disc on rear and that will be my first disc brake.  Thus I am quite ignorant of disc brakes in general on bikes.  But, if I was having the amount of rim wear you are having, I probably would consider switching to discs.

Changing to discs would mean changing all my bike frames, so not really an option. As I live near the Atlantic coast of France, with frequent wet weather, and often use sandy tracks, I reckon 20,000 kms or so of use on the large wheel bikes isn't too bad. And for my heavy tourer with CSS rims it ought to be much better than that.

The Brompton 16 inch rims wear much quicker, but are fairly cheap to buy, and small wheels are quicker to build. The last one I built I taped the new and old rims together and transferred the existing spokes, it took me about 90 minutes, including truing (professionals are much quicker). 

[mickeg]

..., and small wheels are quicker to build. The last one I built I taped the new and old rims together and transferred the existing spokes, it took me about 90 minutes, including truing (professionals are much quicker).

Yeah, that is a handy trick.  I changed a rim a couple weeks ago that way.  I never race to true up and tension a wheel, I don't care if a pro is faster.  I sit in front of a mindless tv show to pass the time while truing up the wheel.

[Pavel]

When I had to make the choice the last three times I went with regular.  My main reasoning was that I wanted to have homogeneity on all my bikes, because sometimes I switch wheels out from one bike to another, and the first time out I was put off not by any wet braking (I survived in the wet with 1970's chrome plated wheels) but rather by posts that sometimes the CSS setup can squeal.  That would drive me insane, so I did not take the chance. Not sure I've made the perfect choice, but I've never regretted the decision neither.

I'm quite impressed with Danneux's mileage. I think two things help Dan.  He rides in the sand a lot so he stops as soon as he ceases to pedal and all his frequent falling off the bike keep the brakes like new. In every cloud (and sandstorm) - a silver lining! 

[Danneaux]

I'm quite impressed with Danneux's mileage. I think two things help Dan.  He rides in the sand a lot so he stops as soon as he ceases to pedal and all his frequent falling off the bike keep the brakes like new. In every cloud (and sandstorm) - a silver lining! 

You're onto me, Pavel. 

Pics attached below for near proof!

All the best,

Dan.

[Pavel]

Dan, does that sort of enviroment, with blowing sand and grit not contribute to wear and tear on a normal rim, do you think?  It's got to I think because I'm sure a layer of the stuff gets on every surface.

Off topic here, but man oh man, that is the sort of environment I want to experience, or at least some sort of vistas where you can see what looks like forever.  After you've cycled past your fifty thousandth pine tree, out where I am in the piedmont and coastal NC area intersection, I'd trade for some open spaces, really quick.

[Danneaux]

Dan, does that sort of enviroment, with blowing sand and grit not contribute to wear and tear on a normal rim, do you think?  It's got to I think because I'm sure a layer of the stuff gets on every surface.

<nods> It surely does -- both contribute to wear and get into every possible crevice -- if dry. The blowing playa is not quite so bad as Eastern Oregon talc...that stuff will even get past car taillight gaskets to fill them full. However, the playa is alkali, so has its own problems. It can't be made potable and is corrosive. I use Phil Wood waterproof grease exclusively and add additional to make a grease seal. I'm fairly obsessive about my drive chain and clean it daily with a mascara brush and reoil with Purple Extreme lube. I generally wipe down the bike daily and all allen sockets are plugged 'cos when the playa dust gets damp or wet, it concretizes and is hard to pick out.

When wet, playa makes a sort of slurry paste that sticks to the rim sidewalls and the pads and will.not.come.off. while touring. It resembles dried latex paint and requires soap, water, a scrub brush and real effort to remove After. The odd thing is, once pads and rims are coated, it seems to be playa-on-playa and doesn't add much to rim wear. I have attached a couple pics from one of my 700C bike tours through there when the playa was damp (that's a Thorn Low-Loader rack on it...first Thorn item I ever bought). As you can see, the damp playa packs up pretty good on brakes as well. When it is damp, it is like trying to ride through pudding. When wet...it is a whole other thing, as the mineral salts that normally blow in the dry dust come out of solution and make a really nasty brew to walk/haul the bike in. Things would go Very Bad Very Quickly if it started to rain hard enough to get caught in mid-transit. Thunderstorms do come up pretty quickly, but I keep an eye on the skies and am alert to any changes that could mean Rain.

I just dashed out to the garage to photograph the Nomad's rims. They seem to be lasting real well -- the sidewalls still have their little lathe-turned ribs (second photo below).

A last note on pads and rims: I have sometimes set my pads at a slight angle on my rims with tall sidewalls. Not only has this reduced any tendency to squeal, it has also increased the swept area of the rim, making for a little less rim wear for the same braking. Of course, I'm also the guy who believes the mantra, "take care of your tools and they'll take care of you" and releases the cable tension on all my derailleur bikes before parking. It seems to work, as I'm still running front and rear mechs from the early 1980s and they shift as-new. I'm real careful to remove any embedded rocks from my brake pads at first sign, but have mixed views on rim cleaning. I've used chemicals like acetone in the past and a product marketed at one time by Kool-Stop called Rim Conditioner. Neither worked very well. I now clean my rim sidewalls about once every 5 years by scuffing lightly with 0000 stainless steel wool wet with non-phosphate detergent. It works great. If I get any oily substances (like chain lube) on the sidewalls, I clean it off using 99% isopropyl alcohol. The 99% has little water content, so does not cause water spotting of the raw aluminum sidewalls like rubbing alcohol (~60%) can.

Best,

Dan.

[mickeg]

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Off topic here, but man oh man, that is the sort of environment I want to experience, or at least some sort of vistas where you can see what looks like forever.  After you've cycled past your fifty thousandth pine tree, out where I am in the piedmont and coastal NC area intersection, I'd trade for some open spaces, really quick.

I attached a few photos of my Iceland trip last summer.