Help, Opinions Wanted

[moodymac]

Thanks Andre (much needed advise),

and the Mavic outlook is too closely focused on racing for my liking

I remembered reading a side note in a post of yours stating (loosely) that Mavik rims and touring bike should not be mixed.  Hence the DT Swiss, thanks.

Remind me on a dull day, when your bike is built, to tell the story of a supposedly sybaritic Trek for the middle-aged hedonist I once bought, and how Trek's designer, because of the company ethos, bolloxed it from the beginning.

I will hold you to that!  But first I must get the dictionary out.  Seems like I do that a lot when reading you.  Again thanks.

If you can fit wider mudguards, you should

The P45 was the largest Thorn listed in their first draft catalog, I have made a note to question them about this.  The largest tire that can be fitted is 700x40 and still fit mudguards.  This is with Supreme like tread.  I too like me and gear to stay dry and clean, I plan on installing the mud flaps that Dan and JimK are using.  

[I see in a message that crossed with this one that you've considered this already, but I'll leave it as general comment for others.] Also, is 35mm the widest tyre you can fit, or is it a compromise with some hoped-for "speed"? I am very impressed with the benefits of fitting the widest tyres your bike will take, since I switched to low pressure balloons a few years ago. You can always slim down too much bike and sell the surplus parts on, but building up not enough bike is more difficult and expensive.

Comfort over speed is my thing!  The thing with the 35s was the pump carrier fittings interfering with the pump with wider tires.  I would carry the thing elsewhere for more comfort.

Something that I want to ask you in particular about:  What do you think of the San Marco Rolls saddle?  I have heard good things about them, but never sat on one.  I really don't like the idea of breaking in a Brooks.  I considered getting a twice sprung Brooks that claims to be pre-broken, but have never heard of anyone using it.
http://www.brookssaddles.com/catalogue-and-shop/saddles/touring+%26+trekking/Flyer+S+Aged/

Thanks again Andre,

Tom

[Danneaux]

'Coupla things in your last note pop out at me, Tom, so here we go:

Comfort over speed is my thing!

Thudbuster LT (if vertical space allows) or Thudbuster ST (if vertical space is tight).

I really don't like the idea of breaking in a Brooks.

Unfortunately (for people like me) B.17 saddles have become markedly quicker to break-in these days. I miss the Old Days™ when they really did require breaking-in. I had one go uncomfortably soft for my preferences well within 300mi. In other words, breaking-in a B.17 is no longer the task it once was. This may -- or may not -- hold true for other Brooks models.

Yes, Buddy Flaps are marvelous.

Best,

Dan.

[moodymac]

Hi Dan,

You must be reading my mind!  I wanted to ask you if it would be better to buy and install the Thudbuster here or have it installed at Thorn.

Also, have read the entire article you kindly referenced regarding the purchasing and shipping of your Sherpa.
A couple of questions:

How did you manage to get a Sherpa for just about the same price as I am getting the entry level Club Tour for?
Do you think I am over building the bike?

The shipping cost were shocking.  I was stupidly thinking 3 or 400 dollars.  And did not think of import fees at all!
I did not consider the Raven Tour due to the Rholoff cost being over half the cost of the bike.  To learn the shipping and customs fees are almost half the cost of the bike is not good.  This is going to be a very hard sell to the wife and take a little longer than I wanted (more funds needed now).  But, I going to give it a go.

Your insight always valued, thanks,

Tom

[moodymac]

Got to get down to Medicine Hat, AB for an early pick up of a load now going to Lafayette, La.  Have to be there the morning of the 20Th, so I wont be on line until then.

Will answer any question that come my way.  Will read all comments (much valued and needed).


Till then,

Tom

[John Saxby]

Hi again Tom,

A few more thoughts on costs for your bike.  Re-reading the thread, I understand that you have not yet purchased the bike.  If not, then let me suggest the following from my recent experience with a Rohloff & Raven:

1)    Work through the bike you want, i.e., a Club Tour with your specs;
2)    Then, get a pro-forma invoice from Thorn, for the built-up bike plus shipping to Tx. Thorn's price will exclude the UK's 20% sales tax (VAT). Then,
3)    Check US Customs for the duty on the built-up bike, and add any local taxes such as sales tax. This should give you the whole price.  (Use a conservative exchange rate -- credit-card companies always charge a 2 - 3 % above the listed foreign-exchange rates.)

I did this for a complete Raven + Rohloff, and found that the combination of shipping costs, the depreciation of the Cdn $ against the £, and 13% import duty on complete bikes, plus another 13% sales tax on the cost of the bike + duty, was prohibitive.

(I had some other reservations, too -- wanted to do the final sizing of my bike here, and wanted to get the same nice VO Grand Cru handlebars which I now use, but which SJSC doesn't sell.)

So, I did what Thorn buyers/riders in Australia & NZ often do:  Buy the frameset & forks from Thorn, and the Rohloff & SON hubs from German suppliers; source other components here or in the US, and have my LBS do the build.  Going this route, I paid much less for shipping; no import duty; and (hard to believe!) reduced sales tax here, because the gvt chose not to levy sales tax on some small shipments.  Also, the German hubs were much cheaper when purchased through online suppliers in Deutschland.  I chose to go this route because I have confidence in my LBS -- they sell their own frame for an IGH, for example, and often install Shimano or rohloff hubs.  (I didn't buy their frame because it's not available with 26" wheels.)

When all is said and done, my made-there-built-up-here Raven will cost me about C$4,000.  Had I bought the same bike complete from Thorn, the price would have been more than C$5500, close to custom-bike territory.  (Maybe closer to $6000, because the C$ has lost 15% against the £ since last March.)

So, I'd suggest taking your same Club Tour specs, and:

1)   cost out the purchase of a frameset and forks, plus any special items you can get only at SJSC;
2)   get a pro-forma invoice for those items, plus shipping (my shipment of frameset, forks, and some spares, for example, came to £73 -- about C$120 at the time)
3)   get an estimate of any duty on these bike parts -- in Canada, there is 0% duty on parts, some distance from the 13% for a full bike, or 6.5% for built-up wheels
4)   get an estimate of remaining parts, plus build-up labour, from a bike shop you trust.

One has to do the arithmetic on these ventures -- I was very surprised by the difference between my two estimates. (The two big influences, the 13% import duty, and the 15% depreciation of the C$, came into play from April 2013 onwards.)

Hope this is helpful, Tom.

J.

[Danneaux]

How did you manage to get a Sherpa for just about the same price as I am getting the entry level Club Tour for?

Hi Tom! There are several factors in all this. First, I purchased Sherpa in Summer 2011, when prices were lower. Also, the exchange rates were a bit different as well. Component costs were a little less as well.

One of the big differences in cost is I went for basic Deore spec on the derailleurs, crankset, hub (rear, SON28 Klassik for the front) and brakes, with the high-value deal Thorn offers on the B.17 by kindly passing on its OEM supplier discount to buyers of complete bikes.

I have always found Shimano's mid-level offerings to be a terrific value and I was not disappointed in my choice except for the external BB bearings, which are a known problem due to the design and materials and sealing. I was pleased enough with my choices on Sherpa to duplicate them as much as possible on the Nomad (laying-in a Phil Wood BB for when the original went bad, which it did). The standard Deore kit also meant a lower theft profile 'cos it lacked the cachet of XT or XTR even if it had much of the functionality. I also had good luck with the double-pivot and single-pivot "Shadow"-series Deore rear derailleurs working smoothly and reliably for my needs.

Thorn's basic spec results in a proven and serviceable complete bicycle of good value.

I also went for the basic build in Sherpa. I had the front Thorn Low-Loader Mk V racks I'd used on the Miyata, and I moved the Surly Nice Rack (Rear) over as well, so no rack costs compared to your spec. I supplied my own preferred bottle cages (Minoura nylon) rather than the Profile cages Andy Blance likes. V-brakes front and rear saved over the cost of a rear caliper/disc combo (unavailable on the Mk2 Sherpa). The only off-list option I went for was the M:Part carbon chainstay protector, which I liked very much but requires a zip-tie to secure as well as the adhesive. As I was advised, any items bought off-spec are at regular SJS Cycles' prices. I think this is fair, 'cos these items are pulled from regular stock and do not carry the same OEM builder "package" prices as the options offered on the Thorn build sheet. I think you could shave ?437/$715 off the cost of your spec by going more basic (wheels, tires, saddle, brakes) and so offset the shipping costs while keeping the whole-bike warranty. You'd still have a corker of a bike, but would it be still your Dream Bike? Only you can answer that. Replacing parts through attrition would allow you to get there eventually, but at higher cost.

As John has answered very nicely while I have been typing this between work calls -- be sure to spec the prices on *everything* before making your decision. I used the same approach I do when shopping on eBay: Base price + shipping + other costs = item cost = buy /or/ not.

Buying a Thorn from offshore is always going to be more expensive than it would be for a UK resident, thanks to shipping, customs, and credit card conversion fees (depending on card used) -- and being on the wrong side of the current exchange rate. There is no opportunity to try the bike and return it, as there would be for a domestic (UK) buyer, and there are no test-rides or look-sees possible. Offsetting that is a great depth of user experience that is overwhelmingly positive, a helpful and pleasant user forum ("buy a bike, get a community for free!"), and the knowledge that Thorn really does stand behind their products, unlike many other makers who find a way 'round warranty coverage. Every once in awhile a flaw of some sort will enter *any* manufacturing process, and when it is an expensive item, the maker's willingness to honor their word is Gold. Thorn surely came through for me, confirming the rightness of my purchasing decision.

Contrast that to a friend who has had problems with three custom-built frames in a row made by various respected builders, resulting in whole-bike purchases costing around USD$8,000 each. One was made with the wrong fork; the maker sent her a replacement pulled from another bike and painted to match so poorly the old color shows through in places. Another was made with so little chainstay clearance, she cannot use the chain on the smallest cassette cog without sawing into the 'stay. The third bike does not have the specified geometry. She has decided to keep all three and learn to accommodate their shortcomings.

There's another important thing that separates Thorn bikes from others in a very positive way: Designer Andy Blance actually rides and tours, and has done so for many years. He designs what he rides and rides what he designs, and has a personal investment in making things Work. as mentioned in an earlier thread referenced above, I had a choice of brands and builders locally, but found nothing that suited my needs as well as Thorn, and in the end I'm glad I made the decision to go with them, but it was a stretch for me financially. I buy new bicycles when there is a gap in meeting my needs (expedition tourer in this case), but carefully selecting quality machines means they also last a long time, and I still have and regularly ride some purchased decades ago. I viewed a Thorn as a long-term investment, intending to keep mine for the next 20 years. Yes, they're "worth it". Though the cost can be dear, it can be a long-term investment.

Good topic, with the same questions many of us face in contemplating a purchase. Be sure to check every listing in Thorn's FAQ as well; it is very complete in answering a number of questions for new buyers: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/faq.html The Downlads page has a copy of the owner's manual and warranty, rack fitting instructions, and more: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/downloads.html

All the best,

Dan.

[nztony]

There's another important thing that separates Thorn bikes from others in a very positive way: Designer Andy Balance actually rides and tours, and has done so for many years. He designs what he rides and rides what he designs, and has a personal investment in making things Work.

Dan, this is 100% exactly the reason I went for the Nomad MK2 way down here in New Zealand.

I did what Thorn buyers/riders in Australia & NZ often do:  Buy the frameset & forks from Thorn, and the Rohloff & SON hubs from German suppliers

Here's another vote for John Saxby's suggestion - did exactly the same myself recently and have ended up with an excellent Thorn bicycle here in New Zealand.

Tony
NZ

[Andre Jute]

Something that I want to ask you in particular about:  What do you think of the San Marco Rolls saddle?  I have heard good things about them, but never sat on one.

I've never sat on one either, but there's bound to be someone here who has one, or at least ridden on someone else's. The Rolls was mentioned approvingly in the Saddles thread not too long ago.

I really don't like the idea of breaking in a Brooks.  I considered getting a twice sprung Brooks that claims to be pre-broken, but have never heard of anyone using it.
http://www.brookssaddles.com/catalogue-and-shop/saddles/touring+%26+trekking/Flyer+S+Aged/

I ride the B73, which is a B66 with a helical spring at each corner instead of just the back corners. I chose it because the B73 has the reputation of being the most comfortable Brooks saddle for upright riders (short of the super-comfortable but super-heavy B190) and being the most comfortable straight out of the box bar none. On the downside some say the front spring causes it to be not as directionally stable as the B66; rubbish, that spring is too hard to sway even under my 200 pounds. When new I soaked my B73 in neatsfoot oil for 20m for two reasons: to soak in protection against rain to the depth of light scratches, and to color the honey of the leather a custom tan that nobody else has. That isn't enough time in the neatsfoot to soften it, as some feared. Once or twice a year I rub the saddle over lightly with Brooks' own goop, called Proofide. I keep it from getting wet by covering it with a Brooks waxed cover when I leave it and rain is expected. The B73 didn't need breaking in, and after over 10,000km has only been tensioned perhaps three times, so I think if were to need break-in, it would have broken in by now. In any event, what you really want to know is, how painful was my first ride and my first six months with the Brooks B73. The short answer is, not at all. I sat on that Brooks, my butt bonded with it, and I will fight to keep it. You might also be interested to know that the highly regarded gel saddles I had before were all harder than the Brooks was straight out of the box. I fully concur with Dan's experience, except that where he moans about "too little break-in", I would say, "Choose the right Brooks, get zero break-in, enjoy the ride."

If you're going to spend San Marco Rolls money, I would suggest that you try a Brooks of at least the B66 width first. After my experience with the B73, I wouldn't buy a pre-aged saddle. I don't think the pre-aging is necessary, and it may compromise the longevity of the saddle.

If you plan to go Dan's route, with the Thudbuster, buy the least-sprung Brooks you can find in the right width (and check the vertical space your particular bike very carefully indeed -- probably be smart and a cost saving to buy the Thudbuster Stateside). None of the B17's, beloved of the roadie/fast touring/drop handle crowd, are suitable for riders who expect to stay seated most or all of the time* and in an upright position at that. I also suspect that the B17, because it is narrower, has to be made of stiffer/harder leather, which accounts for it's reputation for needing substantial break-in.

So, to summarize, for a cyclist over 50, interested in comfort, specifying a bike on which he will sit upright or semi-upright, I would suggest a Brooks of B66 width or wider, preferably sprung, and not the pre-aged because you might love the standard Brooks out of the box, and if you don't you can gimmick it right with by soaking it in your choice of oil (including motor oil, often used before a Brooks saddle became a "luxury saddle", an item of veneration). My personal Brooks comfort fave is the B73 but it comes with a weight penalty (still, it weighs less than a plainer Brooks plus a Thudbuster).

* My Utopia Kranich, known as the Rolls-Royce of Circumnagivators, a tourer with a 170kg rating, for instance is specifically designed for the cyclist never to rise out of the saddle except for a slight post (a momentary lift out of the saddle) over really bad potholes. It is one of the thoroughly thought-out corollaries of a bike designed from the ground up around Big Apple tyres and the Rohloff gearbox (the first 100 Rohloff boxes were bought by Utopia). It works.

[peter jenkins]

Opinions on saddles are sooooo subjective that I'm reluctant to comment but here goes:

I have 3 Brooks B17(N) saddles and 2 San Marco Rolls.

The Brooks is more comfortable after about 6 hours but on rides shorter than that there is very little in it.

My newest Brooks was broken in after relatively few kilometres and I have since punched some holes in the sides and laced it to restore some firmness and support. It is very comfortable as a result of that.

My oldest one, bought in 2006 is still comfortable and I've not had to adjust it at all.

The Rolls is great value and requires almost no maintenance other than keeping it clean.

I bought my Club Tour online and picked it up at SJS then brought it back to Australia as checked baggage at no extra air fare. It's almost worth investigating that option rather than paying for shipping. You get to see/feel/ride the bike and (in Australia, anyway) avoid paying import duty because you're just bringing your used bike home. (and you get the VAT refunded about a month after you arrive.)

Cheers,

pj

pj

[triaesthete]

Hi  Tom

Try this currency converter for real time exchange rates. http://www.oanda.com/currency/converter/   It also allows you to factor in card exchange charges. (Nearly always 3%). It also shows the last 90 days exchange rate graph which helps to time a purchase.

When I buy stuff from Germany the figures I get on Oanda are within a penny or two of what actually comes out of the bank.

I would support the buy here build there philosophy expounded above. It even works handsomely for me living in the UK! If you build the bike yourself you'll know how to mend it on tour.

I would also second Dan (and Andre in other threads!!) on the Deore spec. argument. Deore really is made up to a standard with considerable economies of scale. Everything above this is gold plating/consumerism gone wild. I speak as a recovering addict.....    The only part in Thorn basic specs that I don't like is the seatpin with it's notchy adjustment.

+1 on the Brooks are softer than they used to be. If you like a hard one these days you need to buy the B17 Champion Special....tapping it is like knocking on wood, the other tops have no resonance at all.

My 2 cents. But if you get  Thorn frame the rest is just detail.
Happy days
Ian

[Andre Jute]

I would also second Dan (and Andre in other threads!!) on the Deore spec. argument. Deore really is made up to a standard with considerable economies of scale. Everything above this is gold plating/consumerism gone wild.

Ha! I actually wrote a post for this thread saying, "Any component that costs more than Deore has to justify its inclusion," but scrapped it as perhaps not to the point for Tom, specifying the bike of a lifetime, and with high carriage charges being the real sticking point rather than deluxe components.

I like the suggestion of minimizing carriage charges and import duties, and the overall cost, by buying only a frame, with perhaps a bottom bracket and headset already fitted, after which the rest is a meccano job any competent cyclist can manage with a modest toolkit by simply taking his time to do every job right before moving on to the next. I don't think Tom needs to pay his LBS for more than a final roadworthiness check, or perhaps final adjustment of his derailleurs. But this sort of thing needs, as John Saxby says, to be very carefully calculated, including all costs specified (not just "and ten per cent for postage") if it is not to go wrong. I've done this exercise several times and each time the multiple postage charges between Germany and Ireland made it a dicey proposition, so that I bought the complete bike instead and replaced components I didn't want later. However, in Tom's case there may be a considerable advantage as components are so much cheaper in the States and carriage charges are low or often nil.

[triaesthete]

Carriage or components, it's all cash Tom has to pay out!  Moreso if there are % import duties on invoice total.

In my mitigation for the specification charge m'lud, 'e did say 'e 'ad 'eard  bad fings about Deore 'ubs and was going to raid a Lancashire boutique instead. I was made aware of the forum case law and your zeal for this area of retail reform by my QC yer 'onour.

I've always thought of LBS "roadworthiness checks" as a euphemism for "I'm ducking the responsibility for my handiwork."  I wonder what LBSs think of this proposition?

(Educated voice);What? we take on and underwrite all liability for all the visible and invisible 3rd party work and component choice/compatibility and get almost no commercial return,

OR

(Villain voice like Bob 'oskins); Blimey! What a mug. Bounce it on the floor and stick back on anything that falls off and bill the geezer fifty quid....

OR

(Terry Thomas voice):We need a caveat! The vehicle was roadworthy "at the time of the test" therefore our liability stretches just past the front door...

Dodgy days
Ian

[Danneaux]

I keep thinking about all the replies Tom will have stacked-up on his return the morning of the 20th. 

Best,

Dan.

[moodymac]

Code: [Select]

Offsetting that is a great depth of user experience that is overwhelmingly positive, a helpful and pleasant user forum ("buy a bike, get a community for free!"), and the knowledge that Thorn really does stand behind their products
Had to peek.  I am running just a little behind due to minor paper glitch in border crossing so will get back in detail later.  A most profound statement (above quote) that kept coming back to me when I was thinking that I would have to settle for a Surly (nice bike, but not up to Thorn standards, and certainly not a forum with the caliper of people found here).  Quickly reading through:  You people have found ways to save me one heck of a lot of money, and allowed me to get what I really want.  It is amazing what several great minds can do compared to one rather dull one!  What I thought might not be wisely doable, now seems to be the thing to do.

Can't say thanks enough,

Tom

[George Hetrick]

US customs duty is 5.5% on a bike with 700c wheels, and 11% on a bike with 26" wheels. I believe frames are dutied at 3.9%.

When I bought my Nomad Mk2, customs worked out to be ~$600USD and shipping $400USD. If I were doing it again, I'd buy the frame from Thorn, along with anything not locally available, such as the Thorn racks, and have it built up by a local shop.