Author Topic: Nexus 5-speed hub for e-bikes  (Read 536 times)

martinf

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Nexus 5-speed hub for e-bikes
« on: February 22, 2025, 08:03:39 PM »
This started in the "Rohloff - What's YOUR Opinion ?" topic, but it doesn't have much to do with the Rohloff hub, except as a possible cheap alternative to Rohloff or Enviolo hubs that might be capable of resisting the torque of an entry-level mid motor better than the Nexus 8 Premium that I use on several non-assisted bikes. Hence the new topic.

I have finished building up the bike on which I plan to start testing the Nexus 5-speed hub. The hub model designation is Shimano Nexus Inter 5E SG-C7000-5R.

One delay was having to mail-order wide mudguards for 26" tyres, as they were not available locally. An essential item for winter riding near the Atlantic coast.

Another was a heavy cold, which kept my out of the garage for a few days.

The bike was based on an old mountain bike, bought for 10 euros, then stripped down and repainted before being built up with a mix of new and used parts.

As direct drive is in the lowest gear, the hub requires a small chainring (38T) and a large sprocket (30T) to get the kind of gear range I wanted.

Gearing is 32" to 85" in regular steps all about 27/28%. Overall range 263%.

I have the version that can be used with either a roller brake or rim brakes, I have used cheap V-brakes, but with KoolStop pads and good quality cables and housings, the brakes work very well. There is also a version for disk brakes.

Fairly wide steps between the gears make sense in a hub designed for e-bike use. My first impressions on a short utility ride are that the wide gear steps are acceptable on a non-assisted utility bike that will mainly be used for fairly short rides. The overall range is also acceptable for this use, for comparison the very old Sturmey-Archer S5/2 hub geared bike I generally use for this purpose has 225% with irregular gear steps of 18% and 27%. The twist-grip gear shifter feels even easier to use than the Nexus 8 equivalent, though that might be due to the new cables and housings.

The Nexus Inter 5 doesn't feel quite as efficient as the Nexus 8 Premium hub. This might be because I am comparing a brand new hub running on factory grease to well run-in hubs that have been converted to run in oil. Once again, efficiency is acceptable and (so long as my memory isn't playing tricks) better than the Nexus 7 Shimano I used for a while a couple of decades ago. For the hub's designed use on an e-bike, any slight efficiency losses shouldn't matter much.

Unfortunately, I can't fit a Chainglider on this bike. On the frame I used, the distance between bottom bracket and rear axle is OK for the standard Chainglider I usually fit on Nexus 8 hub geared bikes. But too short for the special front and rear Chainglider parts that fit the big 30T rear sprocket on the Nexus Inter 5.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2025, 08:15:54 PM by martinf »

Andyb1

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Re: Nexus 5-speed hub for e-bikes
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2025, 09:26:41 AM »
It looks very tidy.
Please excuse if a stupid question, but what are the plastic split tubes around each spoke for?

in4

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Re: Nexus 5-speed hub for e-bikes
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2025, 11:53:04 AM »
Reflectors. Think Dan has them on his stead/s
« Last Edit: February 23, 2025, 03:23:33 PM by in4 »

Danneaux

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Re: Nexus 5-speed hub for e-bikes
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2025, 03:46:41 PM »
Quote
Reflectors. Think Dan has them on his stead/s
Yes, briefly so as not to pull this thread too far off-course, do a Forum search for SekuClip or here...
https://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=5439.0

They are extremely lightweight styrene plastic tubes covered in highly reflective material that snap over spokes to provide near 360° coverage. Being lightweight (~1.8g each) and evenly distributed, they don't affect wheel balance like conventional spoke reflectors and they stay brighter longer than reflective tire sidewalls, though they can and do eventually get grimy unless washed with detergent at long intervals. I love them and have fitted them to all the bikes in my fleet I ride at night. As I recall, to be legal in Germany all spokes must be fitted.

SekuClip seems to be the original, though I've had reasonably good luck with cheaper imitations sold under different names, the main variables being length, tightness of fit on the spokes and degree of reflectivity. Video still attached using an LED flashlight as a light source. Much brighter in car headlights.

Best, Dan.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2025, 03:54:55 PM by Danneaux »

Andre Jute

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Re: Nexus 5-speed hub for e-bikes
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2025, 04:49:50 PM »
Thanks for the comprehensive and comprehensible description, Martin.

For a utility bike it sounds like you have enough gears. I fitted the electric motor to my Rohloff-equiped bike for the box's brute strength, not the number of its gears.

You could use the "gears" available in the electric motor to provide intermediate virtual power ratios between the 5-speed Nexus's gears.

With complications, say a two speed derailleur and a table on your handlebars like cyclists of the half-step persuasion, you might even be able to arrange a "high-speed" gear or two at the cost of additional noise. But why should you bother with three (!) different gear controls on a utility bike intended to ease your life?

Your new bike looks really good in that cheerful blue.

I look forward to hearing how you fare on hills.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2025, 04:56:41 PM by Andre Jute »

Andyb1

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Re: Nexus 5-speed hub for e-bikes
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2025, 11:36:56 AM »
Thanks for the replies…….back on thread now!

I have very limited experience of electric bikes, just one conversion I did and my wife’s current ebike, both with hub motors - so I am a little confused by Andre’s post saying that the mid motor itself might have gears?

Andre Jute

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Re: Nexus 5-speed hub for e-bikes
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2025, 05:40:09 PM »
I have very limited experience of electric bikes, just one conversion I did and my wife’s current ebike, both with hub motors - so I am a little confused by Andre’s post saying that the mid motor itself might have gears?

Two e-bikes already makes you an expert!

I'm talking about virtual gears, a control under your thumb or your forefinger as the case might be, which electronically sets up a higher current regime for the motor. For instance, on my Bafang bottom bracket motor I have a controller fascia fitted which came with a five-way switch which I put on the handlebars near my left hand. The switch performs many other functions besides giving extra juice when needed; it doesn't actually need the thumb throttle to work -- in fact the thumb throttle cuts out software gears, which is no problem for me because I use the thumb throttle only when I want instant full power regardless of battery drain on one particular hill which steepens towards the top and is crazy steep for the last five yards.

Okay, so why is the switch so urgently required?

See, the so-called pedelec is a profoundly perverse machine, deliberately made so by German legislators, than whom there is no stupider herd-influenced creature on earth. It works only while you pedal and then only to the extent that you pedal. So when you're ascending a hill and you naturally slow down your pedaling, as you go slower, just when you need it most, the electric bike gives you less and less and less juice. You wouldn't pay for a car that did this to you.

But if you inform yourself and shop smart and are ruthless about putting down dealers who try to set themselves up as adjuncts of the police by disconnecting the best features of the controllers (I spoke to one who proudly told me he drags a screwdriver over the relevant part of the PCB -- not a joke, real life experience), you can get a full kit including the controller I describe above which comes in the full kit of the Bafang BB and its controller. You can also buy the controller kit that I'm talking about separately in China and fit it yourself. I bought the whole lot of motor, controller and battery, plus a comprehensive fitting kit, together with a thumb throttle (not in the kit) from a dealer in England who has the correct attitude. There are interruptors for normal wire operated brakes in the standard kit, and the dealer sourced and supplied to me for very reasonable cost plug-in interruptors for my Magura rim hydraulic brakes, which were already in the controller software. You can actually program the particular controller I have with a laptop, but I read the list of what was already in the ex-factory programming, decided that everything I could possibly want was there, and didn't bother to buy the interface; I still haven't thought of any function I could want that isn't there. One function that I didn't then see a lot of use for but have used many times since was a walking pace setting, which lets you walk the bike up hills without effort if you're deep in conversion with non-electric companions; it also climbs stairs, and rolls up the ramp to the high pavement in front of my town house, and best of all for me, it rolls effortlessly up three little steps right in the doorway where there just isn't space for two panniers full of shopping and me at the same time. For me, this small boon is one of most agreeable features of the controller.

I'm not sure that all this is particularly relevant to Martin's installation, because I assume he wants to keep it basic because he's on deliberate learning curve (I too made my first installation as a deliberate learning curve). If you want more about my second installation, which has served well for many years, look up Bafang BB on this forum, and also the concept of the Coulomb which I have appropriated to explain why you need a humongous battery, and as an appropriate unit for the current available in the next second, which is more important on an electric bike than any other algorithm. (Ironically, at the other end of the scale, the current Rolls-Royce still hasn't got a revolutions counter. Instead it has a Power Reserve meter which works very much like the one on the controller Bafang supplies for e-bikes.)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2025, 05:49:35 PM by Andre Jute »

Andyb1

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Re: Nexus 5-speed hub for e-bikes
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2025, 09:40:21 AM »
The ebike conversion I made just had a thumb throttle for speed control while my wife’s factory built ebike has different levels of e-assist which are controllable from the handlebar to remove the steeper hill / slower speed / less e-assist problem.

Each system has advantages and disadvantages:  the thumb throttle system could be used to power the bike without pedalling (good when going through water or on rough ground, but too fast to walk alongside).   But continually using a thumb throttle could be tiring.
The factory ebike with variable power settings has a crank sensor so one more thing to go wrong, and of course it will only e-assist when riding if the cranks are turned by the rider.  Easily switchable levels of e-assist are useful not just on varying hills but also with headwinds (and for a tiring rider!).

As Martin’s bike is a conversion I don’t think it legally needs a crank sensor (but do check, particularly if you are loaning the bike out) but more basic kits may still only have one level of e-assist power.  OK in a flat city, not so good in hilly countryside.

martinf

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Re: Nexus 5-speed hub for e-bikes
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2025, 08:03:13 PM »
You could use the "gears" available in the electric motor to provide intermediate virtual power ratios between the 5-speed Nexus's gears.

Apologies for the late reply, for some reason this topic didn't come up for me in "Unread Posts".

At the moment I am just testing the hub without electrical assistance to get an idea of the characteristics.

On a short-haul utility bike in muscular mode it works OK for me, for longer rides a Nexus 8 Premium is better because of the slightly wider range and generally smaller gaps between gears.

I will probably keep the Nexus 5-speed hub in muscular mode for a few months and take the opportunity to give my other two utility bikes a complete overhaul.

After that I might use it as a replacement for derailleur gears on one of the two electric assist bikes at the nature reserve, or maybe for my wife if I can change her mind about electric bikes. I'm not yet ready to make the change myself.

With 5 instead of 8, the adjustment of the gear cable seems to be less critical than Nexus 8 Premium, which itself is less critical than the Alfine 11. I think the cable travel for each gear is longer, this is logical with less gears, so less scope for getting a "between gear" setting, which can be very bad for a hub gear. Rohloff gets around this issue by having the indexing mechanism at the hub rather than in the shifter.

The Nexus 5 twist grip also seems to give a much more positive gear change than the Nexus 8 twist grip. On my own Nexus 8 Premium bikes I prefer either the Alfine 8 Rapidfire shifter or the Jtek bar-end shifter as I think these two options are less likely to get a "between gear" setting, which sometimes happens if I don't take care when using the Nexus 8 twist grip on test rides with my wife's bikes (she likes the twist grip).

Andre Jute

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Re: Nexus 5-speed hub for e-bikes
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2025, 02:04:54 PM »
Depending on the terrain you live in (assuming that the electric bike will be a local, utility bike, not a touring bike), five gears might well enough, because you can fill in between the hardware ratios with the electrical throttle or with the several fixed "ratios" in the software.

I built my electric centre-motor into a bike that already had a Rohloff box mainly for the Rohloff's strength, as I had worked out that even in my hilly countryside the lower half of the box would be superfluous.

What I would have liked to try was the NuVinci continuously variable transmission (CVT) with the automatic control since I had good experience of the Shimano Cybernexus "Smover" auto for the Nexus, but it just doesn't make sense to install two new elements--never mind components quite so influential to the usability of the resulting bike as the motor and the internal hub gearbox--at the same time in a developmental process, because in the end you cannot really say whether what happens, good or bad, is caused by one or the other new component. But then the Bafang BB and the Rohloff turned out to be so synergistic that I couldn't justify spending the time and the money to try anything else.

PS. Like your wife, I like the Rohloff rotary throttle. It's exceedingly intuitive, and since I only started cycling at 50, I don't have the expectations of bicycle controls held by lifelong cyclists.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2025, 02:11:36 PM by Andre Jute »