Author Topic: Do all Thorn's castor like my RST?  (Read 6766 times)

silverdorking

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
Do all Thorn's castor like my RST?
« on: June 07, 2016, 06:23:57 PM »
I've always found my front wheel a fickle so and so, ready to castor either way at the slightest whim. Whilst recently on tour, admittedly with a pair of front panniers I am frequently embarrassed by my Sports Tour taking control as the front wheel takes a mind of its own. Standing over the crossbar to take photos, ask directions or tucking into a baguette my bike will frequently disappear beneath me, heading to the ground at the extreme or minimally leaving me with yet another pair of oily legs!
Is this a specific issue with my bike? None of my other steeds seem to manifest this enthusiasm! I suppose there is nothing that can be done to dampen the steering, I appreciate others might think this a minor inconvenience but repeatedly whilst manovering, not riding the bike I have risked damage to the bike by an unarrested fall.
Any thoughts?

High Moors Drifter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: Do all Thorn's castor like my RST?
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2016, 07:35:12 PM »
You're not alone, I have the same problem with my Mercury but not with any of my other bikes!!!

I'd.

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8281
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: Do all Thorn's castor like my RST?
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2016, 07:50:02 PM »
Hi Andrew!

[Please read through to the end, as I realize I misunderstood your question in the first part of my response!]

The short answer to the query in your title is, "No, they don't all do that". In fact, I'd say by the lack of user reports, Thorns probably shimmy (castor) less than some other makes.

I had a similar problem develop on my Sherpa and tied myself in knots looking in vain for causal factors before sending the bike back to Thorn and Andy Blance, who tested it by loading it heavily and riding it at speed downhill with no problems. It was the only one of my many bikes ever to develop this trait, and my Nomad certainly does not, nor did the Raven Tour very kindly loaned me by Forum member AndyBG for my 2014 double-crossing of all Europe. It is worth noting the RT had essentially the same frame as my Sherpa Mk2, yet had no shimmy at all. I must also note Thorn did everything right in resolving my warranty issue and I could not have been more pleased with their response and how seriously they viewed the whole situation.

I've come to the conclusion some shimmy factors are and will remain simply unknown, as they did in my case.

However, having said that, there are some well known factors that contribute to shimmy for many of the people whose bikes suffer from it. Among the factors to check...

• Load weight and distribution
• Type of rack... a rack that is not rigid can actually induce sway that leads to castgor at the front of the bike ("tail wagging the dog" effect)
• Rider positioning
• Headset adjustment/wear or type -- low-trail randonneur bikes tend to be more subject to shimmy, and the greater friction of rollerbearing headset has solved many cases. I have these fitted to all my bikes except the Nomad (and late Sherpa).
• Frame geometry -- not just in absolute terms, but for intended use.
• Tube length -- bigger frames use longer tubing and are less rigid.
• Frame size (see tube length above)
• Tube diameter
• Tube wall thickness

If a person tries to tour with a too-heavy load on a too-light bike, the limits of good handling will be crossed at a lower threshold and one is more likely to develop problems.

In general, Thorn frame geometry tends toward high trail, which also favors good handling with rear loads. The RST is built with less robust tubing and tighter geometry than its Raven Tour stablemate of the day, and it may be it simply does not tolerate a heavier front load so well before the handling deteriorates -- that's due to the "Sport" focus in the RST name.
=====
Having just written the above, I'll let it stand, but going back and re-reading your post once again, I think the problem you're describing comes not while riding but while at rest, and is more commonly referred to as "wheel flop". This characteristic tends to manifest more on bicycles with higher-trail geometry.

If this is what you mean, then yes...my late Sherpa, my current Nomad, and AndyBG's Raven Tour all manifested it to some degree.

I have found it can be easily controlled while at rest atop the bike simply by locking up the front brake so the bike cannot roll once the handlebars turn themselves to one side. I use and prefer Bike Brake parking brake bands because they are durable and resist UV /ozone/stretchout breakdown well and maintain a low profile against the handgrips/bar tape. You can see them here: http://www.bikebrake.com/ An alternative is to simply cut and slip some sections of innertube over your grips to accomplish the same purpose. They won't last as long, but will do the job for a good while and would tell you if they help the problem of the bicycle taking wheel-flop forays while at rest.

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 07:54:19 PM by Danneaux »

mickeg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2801
Re: Do all Thorn's castor like my RST?
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2016, 08:09:57 PM »
I am not sure if we are talking about while moving or while still?

If still, this is not a total solution, but it can help.  A bit of elastic, such as a bunge cord or perhaps some velcro to wrap around the front brake lever to be a parking brake.  I use drop bars, the elastic bands that women use for hair work well on drop bars.  The wheel will still flop to the side, but at least does not roll.

If moving, I am happy with my Thorns.  Neither has had a shimmy.  My Long Haul Trucker had a bad shimmy.  I asked Thorn if they could give me some of the frame specifications for my Thorns, as I do not have the precision tools to accurately measure fork rack, headset angle, etc.  I wanted to compare that data to the specifications for my LHT but Thorn refused to tell me the data on the Thorns that I already owned citing trade secrets.  So, I can't cite any data.  But I can tell you that the LHT frame went away to the metal recycler.

JimK

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1652
    • Interdependent Science
Re: Do all Thorn's castor like my RST?
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2016, 08:30:58 PM »
We have a Trek 520 in the house that I think flops even more readily than my Nomad! I use a strap between the rim and the downtube when the bike is at rest. I keep the strap readily accessible in one of the mesh side-pockets of my handlebar bag. Of course that doesn't work if you need to be moving a bit. Though sometimes I'll keep the strap on and pick up the bike to adjust it a bit, e.g. to line up better with a pole or whatever that I want to lock to.

lewis noble

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 566
Re: Do all Thorn's castor like my RST?
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2016, 09:18:46 PM »
In my experience, this happens more frequently when I am in a hurry to get in to the toilet, or to last orders at the bar . . . the bike collapses like a novice skater! It happened to my Sherpa secured round a lamppost just a few days ago. No damage, fortunately.

I haven't felt that the Sherpa is any worse than other bikes, and yes, I now have some mini bungee loops on the bars to act as a brake. And when I set off on the train to get to my ride in France, I'm also going to use a wheel / downtube 'restrainer' - an Arno strap at present. On the ferry too.

Lewis
 

mickeg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2801
Re: Do all Thorn's castor like my RST?
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2016, 10:38:04 PM »
When I hang my bike from the type of rack that hangs from a receiver hitch on a car or truck, I run a strap or small bunge cord from a spoke on the front wheel to a pedal.  That is to keep the wheel from flopping back and forth as I drive.  It never occurred to me to do that when the bike is parked to control wheel flop, but I might try that.

I use drop bars and I often use a short piece of pipe insulation on the top tube to protect it so that when the wheel flops to one side, the handlebar does not impact the top tube.  The insulation is shown in the photo, although the wheel was straight for the photo - so you will just have to take my word for it that the insulation is in the right spot.


Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8281
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: Do all Thorn's castor like my RST?
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2016, 06:37:53 PM »
Back in the day (in this case, early 1980s), American firm Rhode Gear marketed a little device called the Flickstand to prevent wheel flop and stabilize a parked bike to. It clamped to the downtube and unfolded to wedge against the front tire, keeping it from rolling while turning the bicycle into a rigid panel.

Unfortunately, it was incompatible with mudguards, so it could not be used on fully outfitted tourers, where it was most needed.

Raleigh/Derby Cycles fitted one to a brazed-on mount below the downtube on its mid-'80s tourer, the Portage. It was fitted with 650B wheels which were nowhere to be found in the US at the time. More than one died a quiet death at time of first tire replacement. What's old (much older than Raleigh's attempt) is new again and 650B is once again gaining popularity as the "golden mean" of tire sizes in the MTB and randonneur circles.

Photo of mine own Clickstand below. Pics of one in action at this link:
http://www.powdercoatguide.com/2013/07/stripping-powder-coat.html#.V1go09QrI1I

They still work fine on steel road frames with standard tubing dimensions that do not use mudguards.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 06:39:36 PM by Danneaux »

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8281
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: Do all Thorn's castor like my RST?
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2016, 10:07:01 PM »
Another ready solution to wheel flop while stopped or parked used to exist (early to mid- '80s) in the Blackburn Stopblock. Unlike Rhode Gear's Clickstand, it worked with mudguards, but did not make the bike a rigid panel.

Ir was a simple little block of stepped plastic with a groove to store it on the brake cable and a tether against loss. It worked as a wedge to keep the brake lever closed to squeeze the brakes shut on the rim. I still have a couple on my bikes and have made several more. They can be carved from wood as well as aluminum and work equally well for drop-bar and MTB brake levers. I have made some while on tour by whittling a little notch in the end of a dried hardwood twig. It worked fine.

Pics of my Blackburn Stopblock in and additional photos of the original packaging and description appear below.

On a couple of my other bikes with cantilevers or brazed-on centerpulls, I've fitted a second cable hanger with quick-release. When actuated, the second release smashes the brakes shut, preventing the front wheel from turning. When I need to ride, I simply open it and my brakes work as usual. The primary release still functions normally to open the brake/pads wider for wheel changes.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 10:16:37 PM by Danneaux »

silverdorking

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
Re: Do all Thorn's castor like my RST?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2016, 01:07:55 PM »
Thanks all for such practical solutions but apologies to Dan for setting the wrong hare running due to my ambiguous initial posting! (although it did elicit interesting insight to frame geometry in motion) I like best the band around brake lever idea as this seems quick and easy to implement whilst poised, still over the cross bar but otherwise engaged taking a snap, removing layers or as more recently failing to resist fresh French baguettes, strapped to the rear rack. I'll also be keeping my eye open for an appropriately sized piece of pipe lagging to place strategically on the cross bar!

John Saxby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2033
Re: Do all Thorn's castor like my RST?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2016, 02:40:48 PM »
Velo Orange offer a purpose-built Wheel Stabilizer, seen here: http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/vo-wheel-stabilizer.html  It does require a a threaded hole both fore and aft in the fork crown, however, and the Raven's fork has a threaded bolt hole only in the front.

For quick-and easy freezing of the front wheel, as Dan has described, the Bike Brake bands work very well.

For loading front panniers (for example), I wrap an 8" QR rubber tie around wheel, mudguard and downtube. Here's the link to those handy devices: http://www.leevalley.com/en/garden/page.aspx?p=65393&cat=2,43319,33283  Dead simple, easy and cheap, with lots of other uses on the bike and/or for camping (keeping clothing like rain gear tightly rolled, tensioning guylines for tent or tarp, etc.)

If one uses trekking bars, the Bike Brake bands don't work. My daughter's bike has trekking bars, so I gave her a few 4" QR ties. They do the job very nicely.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 09:52:18 PM by John Saxby »

RST Scout

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
  • Janet
Re: Do all Thorn's castor like my RST?
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2016, 11:31:59 PM »
Errm, I use a wooden peg jammed in the lever putting the breaks on to stop the bike moving. they are just the right size for my bikes. Have done this for centuries ::) especially on trains.
Scout & Bettina's slave!