Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => Wheels, Tyres and Brakes => Topic started by: NZPeterG on December 23, 2012, 10:49:17 PM
-
Hi all,
Would this be good from cycle touring ???
http://youtu.be/v9SWIsY8rzQ (http://youtu.be/v9SWIsY8rzQ)
It is looking good to Me, we may have to wait for them to be made :(
Pete.........
:o
-
Airless? Looked full of air to me!
Another attempt to re-invent the wheel. The pneumatic tyre has survived 125 years for a reason.
-
one weird looking wheel tire .never know it could happen lets wait and see. ;)
-
Id want to see a few real world reviews first.
Obviously if these performed just like a normal touring tyre but without the punctures then Id definitely have them.
-
The designers and developers of that tyre either don't have too much faith in it or haven't put their minds in gear yet.
A tyre is a suspension medium. If their tyre is so good, why do they need to demonstrated it on a bike that is already fully suspended by hydraulics front and rear? Duh.
More. The tyre has holes through it, clearly essential to its operation. But they demonstrate it on a mountain bike, on tracks clearly washed by a good deal of water at other seasons, and therefore muddy. What happens when those holes clog up with mud or worse, with clay? The thing will ride like it's on bands of iron. When the clay dries... Duh.
It strikes me as a bodge on top of all the other bodges made by ergonomically ignorant or mindless bike designers, a compromise to fix other compromises, and bringing more unpleasantnesses with it.
They developers may send me a set of their tyres in the fattest 622mm rim format they have protos in and I'll test them on a bike known to be extremely comfortable without any suspension beyond its 622x60 Big Apple Liteskins. I'll give them a fair test over a 100km of my bad lanes. If they can match the Big Apples for comfort, then there will be an advance (unconditionally puncture proof!) in the sort of bike (commuters, tarmac luxury tourers) where the through-holes would not be a disadvantage, where the customers don't care what the best solution to even a marginal advantage costs, where they have the confidence not to care what the fashion victims who infest cycling think, and where almost everyone by definition is a tech freak and/or technically savvy. (Yeah, right, in addition to their other problems, they're looking at the wrong market.)
If there is no comfort advantage on an otherwise unsuspended bike (we'll overlook the Brooks saddle!) it is a gimmick, ipso facto not worth any money, never mind the premium new technology always demands to cover development costs.
BTW, I'm 20K or more away from my last puncture, ever since I changed to Schwalbe banded tyres, first Marathon Plus (and the Bontrager workalike), then Big Apples Liteskins. This new tyre is therefore a solution in search of a problem that Schwalbe, a brand with street cred, has already beaten conclusively. The developers should put their minds in gear and first define the problem because right now they are in fantasy-land.
Andre Jute
-
They designed that sort of tyre back in World War 1
(http://smile.webshots.com/images/bae20b70ef5a012fa64c12313f021506/jpg/800x600)
There is a reason why such a tyre was not carried through in the market in peacetime ::)
Airless tyres are one of a series of bicycle 'inventions' I call my 'five horsemen of the cycling apocalypse'
airless tyres
noseless saddles
elliptical chainrings
automatic gears
shaft drive
All first invented in the 1890s, all regularly re-discovered every ten years or so as a 'new' invention. None of them have ever had real enduring commercial success and there's a reason for that. They are all either solving a problem that doesn't really exist, or they do it in a very inefficient manner.
I'll keep my $$$ thanks and stick with my virtually puncture-proof Vittoria Randonneur Cross tyres - over the past 7-8 years and over 40,000kms I have not had a single penetration puncture of these beauties. They're 2/3 the weight of the Marathon Plus as well ;)
-
...over the past 7-8 years and over 40,000kms I have not had a single penetration puncture of these beauties.
"Till now". Shhh! Pete! Be quiet, else the Puncture Imps will hear you! :o
All kidding aside, that's a wonderful track record for the Vittoria Randonneurs; duly noted. I presume you're using them in 1.75 width on the Nomad?They're 2/3 the weight of the Marathon Plus as well
And a *lot* less expensive than Schwalbe Duremes.
Do they run nice and true, without center-wobble in the tread cap?
Best,
Dan. (...who's always glad when people air their views on avoiding flats)
-
All kidding aside, that's a wonderful track record for the Vittoria Randonneurs; duly noted. I presume you're using them in 1.75 width on the Nomad?
Yes the Randonneur Cross are so reliable that when someone calls "glass" I just maintain my line. I still carry a puncture repair kit but the glue has probably all dried out. The only strange thing about Vittoria's range is they only do the 26" tyres in 1.75" width. Their 700C tyres come in a range of widths. But I have recently bought some Randonneur Pro folding tyres for our European tour next year - they are 1.5" which is all we should need on the good roads of Italy and France.
And a *lot* less expensive than Schwalbe Duremes.
Do they run nice and true, without center-wobble in the tread cap?
Sure do. They are a very fine tyre, well-seated on the rim and no wobbles.
-
Airless tyres are one of a series of bicycle 'inventions' I call my 'five horsemen of the cycling apocalypse'
airless tyres
noseless saddles
elliptical chainrings
automatic gears
shaft drive
I've had three of those.
The Cheeko 90 bicycle seat is superior to any saddle — except a Brooks. I now ride on a Brooks. The Cheeko has most of a comfort of the Brooks at a fraction of the cost thought; if only its marketing was savvier and its distribution more widespread it could be common on our streets.
The elliptical chainring never did anything for me except wear unevenly. If ti made gearchanging easier even when new, I failed to notice.
I have a bike with full-auto 8 speed hub gears. http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html (http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html) It's in the loft. I ride a manual 14 speed Rohloff-hubbed bike. Shimano's Cyber Nexus full auto, including electronically controlled adaptive suspension, is a first class engineering solution to a problem already long solved, fear by potential cyclists of derailleur gears; it was solved by the plain-jane hub gearbox. It is more efficient than the plain-jane hub gearbox in that on my known daily loop it improved my time by around ten per cent. That's not negligible. (The current Dura-Ace version of the Cyber Nexus is a laughable cut-down version of what I have, hugely pointless, a status symbol rather than funcitonal engineering.) The full-auto bicycle, in my opinion, is a dead duck, among other reasons because the pedelec is a stepless full-auto gearbox and motor in one hub, a cost and weight saving. Shimano has had a full auto three speed in its OEM list since forever, Gazelle and Trek and others gave full-auto gears a good go (the lady who ran Koga-Miyata enthusiastically announced Cyber Nexus as the way all bikes would be in a few years), and none of it set the world alight. There's no market that demands it.
I also looked into shaft drive. In theory it could be made into a superior solution, at a marginal cost in efficiency, to the chain-and-Chainglider paradigm prevalent today. In practice what is available is Chinese toys with plastic gears. It isn't that the solution necessarily stinks, it is that no one serious has built a modern implementation.
-
Hi All,
Look I did not say it was a 1st!
I can across it and it looks good to me, can I buy a pair? No but we can make thing's better! than back in 1920's.
Look at poorly made motorcycle's! like HD (Harley Davidson) are still made and sold! why? because it is made in?? (China :P some parts are! I know as I was the poor guy who had to work on them!)
When you can buy a Great Motorcycle made in Japan!
Back to the Airless bike tyre's!
I was thinking about Cycle Touring in Africa with the Big Thorn's!
I'm Sorry if I upset anyone about the Airless Tyre's (Not about HD's)
:P
About:
Noseless Saddles - - - - No Good
Elliptical Chainrings - - - Good! but not for geared hub bicycle's and only if fitted in the right timing with the crank's (not like back in 1990's)
Automatic Gears - - - - Good for going to the shop's on flat roads (No Good)
Shaft Drive - - - - - - - Good for City Bicycle's (clean pants)
Belt Drive - - - - - - - - No Good so far (HD have them too! Ha Ha) :o
Pete.....
;)
-
Hi Pete!
Speaking for myself, I always enjoy seeing these things come around again. It almost feels like a visit from old friends.
And...once in awhile, they do seem to gain traction and morph into something that works...better.
I remember Shimano's Positron, a really pitiful early effort at indexed shifting. It didn't "really" work.
Then, Shimano got it right and look where we are now. Keying off Andre's comment, I think it take a serious effort by a firm that has the money and resources to invest, then bring to full development while sustaining years of losses.
Best,
Dan. (..who still remembers BioPace chainrings and how they seemed to work better out-of-phase and killed his knees otherwise)
-
Hi Dan,
(..who still remembers BioPace chainrings and how they seemed to work better out-of-phase and killed his knees otherwise)
I still have a good set of the 1st of them (mounted on the some wood, to show them off) and Yes once out of timing/out of phase they worked good.
A few year's ago Honda made a NR750 http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?q=honda+nr750&hl=en&sa=X&tbo=d&biw=1920&bih=934&tbm=isch&tbnid=xHy8cWZqAncdEM:&imgrefurl=http://objetpart.blogspot.com/2010/02/part-of-day-honda-nr750-oval-piston.html&docid=2ZHtzUM3O1lNMM&imgurl=http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/7123/800pxovalpistonyi6.jpg&w=800&h=595&ei=WV_aUI29HYeikwXPi4GoAw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=606&vpy=124&dur=2248&hovh=194&hovw=260&tx=101&ty=120&sig=116707092913217527006&page=1&tbnh=138&tbnw=191&start=0&ndsp=45&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0,i:96 (http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?q=honda+nr750&hl=en&sa=X&tbo=d&biw=1920&bih=934&tbm=isch&tbnid=xHy8cWZqAncdEM:&imgrefurl=http://objetpart.blogspot.com/2010/02/part-of-day-honda-nr750-oval-piston.html&docid=2ZHtzUM3O1lNMM&imgurl=http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/7123/800pxovalpistonyi6.jpg&w=800&h=595&ei=WV_aUI29HYeikwXPi4GoAw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=606&vpy=124&dur=2248&hovh=194&hovw=260&tx=101&ty=120&sig=116707092913217527006&page=1&tbnh=138&tbnw=191&start=0&ndsp=45&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0,i:96) which had 8 valve's per cylinder! and oval pistons :o
A 1st for a Motorcycle engine ??? NO Some racing Motorcycle's from back in 1910's did Oval Piston's!
So yes Things come around again like the Old Gearhub's have come back with more gear (not 3 but 14!)
It's all fun ;)
Pete.....
:)
-
How about this one for you wintry northern hemisphere riders ?
http://www.toxel.com/tech/2012/12/08/bicycle-tire-spikes/
(http://www.toxel.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/bikespikes07.jpg)
-
...Things come around again...
No truer words spoken!
How about this one for you wintry northern hemisphere riders ?
I like this one! I can imagine things would get sketchy in a hurry if you incurred a puncture or the ties came loose, but otherwise, it looks really useful; I'd buy one (pair). The extra rotating weight wouldn't matter much in the conditions where it would be used (snow, ice, low speed). Easy on/off, stowable, uses the stock tires beneath...yeah!
I *want* to believe...which is probably enough for the maker to set the hook.
Best,
Dan. (...who this time may be one of those born every minute :D)
-
Oh good - no one mentioned belt drive bikes - so far. :)
-
BTW, I'm 20K or more away from my last puncture, ever since I changed to Schwalbe banded tyres, first Marathon Plus (and the Bontrager workalike), then Big Apples Liteskins. This new tyre is therefore a solution in search of a problem that Schwalbe, a brand with street cred, has already beaten conclusively. The developers should put their minds in gear and first define the problem because right now they are in fantasy-land.
Andre Jute
Schwalbe has NOT beaten the the problem conclusively, but they are good tires (and what I use). Goathead thorns will penetrate the protection belt easily. I've never tried the marathon Plus, but I doubt it is thick enough. What will defeat most goat-head thorns is heavy thorn tubes (about 580g each) inside Schwalbe belted tires. But these thick tubes give a very sluggish ride and are a sub-optimal solution. I have a whole page devoted to this subject, which probably also applies to African thorns:
http://frankrevelo.com/hiking/biking_flatprevention.htm (http://frankrevelo.com/hiking/biking_flatprevention.htm)
If you really think your current setup is flat-proof, take a sharp sewing machine needle gripped by pliers and slam it against the tire and see what happens.
I haven't had any flats recently, but I certainly don't consider myself immune to them. Even with the best setup, a flat can occur at any time if there is air in the tires. Even thick steel-belted automobile tires get occasional flats.
-
I've never tried the marathon Plus...
Frank, it might be worth a try someday. When I used the 700C version of the Plus in goathead country, I found it worked well at warding off the thorns ("little t"; we want to keep the Thorns) simply because the rubbery filler belt is so thick the spines couldn't reach all the way through to puncture the tube -- so long as one didn't lean over too far to the side, as the belt gets thinner away from center. For most use I found they worked remarkably well on blunting goatheads.
The Plus is a heavy tire, and I found weight of the big, thick belt of rubbery blue stuff did compromise the ride and acceleration over Schwalbe's other tires. It might be a better net solution over your current thick tubes and sealant. If you go this route, be aware the thick belt can make for a larger diameter in some sizes, so standover can be reduced marginally and you might have to reset your computer. It can make mudguard clearance less, and this along with the sluggish response is what made me remove my 700C versions.
If you really think your current setup is flat-proof, take a sharp sewing machine needle gripped by pliers and slam it against the tire and see what happens.
Exactly what Schwalbe show in testing in a photo on their site to demonstrate the Plus' puncture -resistance. They say... This new advance in puncture protection is due to the five millimeter thick Smart Guard puncture protection belt made from special india rubber that in conjunction with the tread and carcass brings the total to almost a centimeter of material between the tube and road. "So strong nothing penetrates", assures Bohle technician Markus Hachmeyer. For example a thumbtack will remain lodged in the rubber and cannot penetrate.
A bit more about the belts here: http://www.schwalbetires.com/node/943 Even with the best setup, a flat can occur at any time if there is air in the tires. Even thick steel-belted automobile tires get occasional flats.
Yep, agreed as to the inevitability. Someday, somewhere, something sharp will have your tires' name on it. The key is reducing the incidence and resultant inconvenience to reasonable levels for oneself, balancing the costs of prevention against the inconvenience of repair.
Best,
Dan. (...who never tires of tire-talk, but feels a little flat when his tires go down)
-
Aside from a sluggish ride, the Marathon Plus is supposedly very difficult to get on/off, and it doesn't come in a folding version. So if the tire failed for whatever reason, I'd first have a potential problem getting it off, then I'd still have to have a thorn protection plan for whatever type of folding tire I had as a spare. Also, the Marathon Plus doesn't come in 55-559, widest size is 47-559 which is way too narrow for sand. Really bad idea overall.
I do NOT use heavy thorn tubes, though I have examined them and rejected them as another bad idea. I use Marathon Mondials (55-559) and regular tubes optionally filled with 60g of Stan's sealant, as described on my web page. This is considerably lighter than the Marathon plus and almost certainly gives a much better ride. Also, I can also delay putting in the Stans until I actually encounter thorns, so the weight is just 2 x 60g in my baggage, which is trivial.
Al sewing machine needle is a lot longer than a thumbtack and will poke right through that foam layer on the Marathon Plus. A sewing machine needle corresponds to running over a long sharp nail pointing straight upwards. These things happen now and then. Happened to me during my Northern Nevada tour back in Sept/Oct of last year, while pedaling into St George.
-
Let's just say that for my roads and where I ride, and my riding style, in ten years on Schwalbe I haven't had a puncture. I switched to Schwalbe after spending around 150 quid on new tyres and tubes in a single 20-day period.
You're right, a Marathon Plus is hell to get off, and a nail breaker to get on the rim. I was happy to give them up in favour of the Schwalbe Big Apple Liteskins which go on like a dream between your forefinger and thumb.
Andre Jute
-
You're right, a Marathon Plus is hell to get off, and a nail breaker to get on the rim.
Man! I must have strong fingers...or this explains why I can no longer write legibly by hand. I've always mounted and removed my Marathon Pluses by hand - no levers or aids. Just bunched the beads into the rim well and then pushed the slack to one point on the rim and peeled 'em off/on from there.
All the best,
Dan. (...who now knows what trashed his hands)
-
Vittoria Randonneur Cross - my tyre of choice
Still air-filled and rideable (sort of)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_06q5UyjMxxw/RpV_qb4biAI/AAAAAAAAACc/eldv7xMf7VU/s1600/screw07.jpg)
-
Vittoria Randonneur Cross - my tyre of choice
Still air-filled and rideable (sort of)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_06q5UyjMxxw/RpV_qb4biAI/AAAAAAAAACc/eldv7xMf7VU/s1600/screw07.jpg)
Wow! That's amazing.
I don't carry a puncture kit at all, and doubt I have one that hasn't dried out. I carry a mobile phone to call a cab company which keeps a van in which my bike fits. (Actually I carry the phone for medical reasons but it sounds better to say its for bicycle emergencies.) Before I switched to Schwalbe I'd carry a tube, but after I switched I gradually gave away all my spares to cyclists with emergencies on the road, and eventually didn't restock, and now all my spares are in 60mm width for my Big Apples, which don't fit anyone else's tyres (and are expensive to give away in the Extra-light version of the tube that I use).
-- Andre Jute
-
Well I ride Tubeless (no tube in my tyres)
I run with UST Mavic Rims and to little (no tubes) cup of Stan's No Tubes, I do get a thorn in my tyres from time to time (once a year maybe) and the tyre reseals again because of the No Flats sealant.
Pete.......
:o
-
My first set of Vittoria Randonneur Cross tyres got to 14,000kms without any penetrations when I retired them as the red puncture-resistant layer had begun to show through. In one incident I pulled 11 three-corner-jack thorns out from deep in the tyre :o. My second pair, now on the Thorn Nomad have done about 12,000kms, still no penetrations, and the rear has shown the red so I've swapped it off. The old front has enough tread still to be able to replace it.
So 26,000 kms, two sets of tyres..... still zero punctures ;D ;D ;D
Heavy old airless tyres seem pretty pointless to me
-
Regarding the infallibility of the Marathon Plus puncture "proofness" I can provide the picture below as evidence that it can be breached!
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-OIly2sMF2FI/UB7HG-H_guI/AAAAAAAAAPg/oxdOMmQC988/s512/Puncture_600.jpg)
This happened one morning when nearly in work when cycling past a building site.
I was very annoyed that numerous wide car tyres had not picked up this nail prior to it piercing my rear Marathon Plus tyre twice!
There was a load explosion as it blew out!
The side wall exit hole left a 1/4" split in the side wall, I patched the inside wall of the tyre and super glued the outside split and am still using the tyre with no further punctures since.
Overall if you want to avoid punctures the MP is hard to beat but like any other pneumatic tyre it is not 100% unbeatable! :)
Barry.
-
Hi Barry!
What rotten luck to find such a thing for a puncture -- and my! what a puncture that is!
I notice your image isn't displaying; the problem is it is linked to the page URL rather than the image URL.
To get the right one, just right-click on the image itself and select "Copy URL" to past into your message between the Insert Image brackets, like so: (https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-OIly2sMF2FI/UB7HG-H_guI/AAAAAAAAAPg/oxdOMmQC988/s512/Puncture_600.jpg)
It should come up okay now.
All the best,
Dan.
-
Thanks Dan.
I just sent you a PM requesting help with this and comeback to my post to see you have already remedied my error!! ;D
You are oustanding!!
Thank you for putting me straight,
Best wishes,
Barry.
-
That's an amazing image, Barry, in one side, out the other. Ouch! I'm so glad you and Dan between you managed to display it.
Actually, though I usually just say Big Apple's, what I actually ride on, because they're softer still, and lighter, are Big Apple Liteskins, the folding sports version with very thin sidewalls... I shall give builders' sites a big berth from now on, go round the back of the the block!
Andre Jute
-
Interesting...
Intrigued by Andre's enthusiasm for the Big Apple (surely inspired by my home town - the one so nice, they named it twice ;)), I googled the name, and found BOTH Wiggle and CRC have discontinued the line. I haven't done an exhaustive check, but wonder what caused that?
Slammin! ( ???)
EDIT - Ignore my musings. I just stumbled across Andre's very considered discussion on the topic only a few posts down.
-
Interesting...
Intrigued by Andre's enthusiasm for the Big Apple (surely inspired by my home town - the one so nice, they named it twice ;)), I googled the name, and found BOTH Wiggle and CRC have discontinued the line. I haven't done an exhaustive check, but wonder what caused that?
Slammin! ( ???)
EDIT - Ignore my musings. I just stumbled across Andre's very considered discussion on the topic only a few posts down.
CRC still has some of the original Big Apple Liteskin, the one I use, in a Raven/Nomad size. See http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=70854 and quite a few more Big Apples at http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/SearchResults.aspx?Search=Big+Apple
But much of the upheaval you see is just a renaming consequent on rationalization, and there are also new Big Apples coming. Some of the other balloon tires now have the old Big Apple Liteskin carcase, but with a wire bead, so that in effect by reading the catalogue carefully you can get a tyre that is theoretically obsolete, and get it with a choice of treads, and get it in colors (colors in most cases only if you accept the cheapest compound, which I don't think tourers will do, because the other compound is specifically an endurance version). Also, there's been an apparently steep price drop, thought it isn't so easy to compare like with like. See http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=6421.msg38761#msg38761 for an overview. (It may be the article you've already seen, in which case, sorry!).
Andre Jute
Yo, Schwalbe, my bill follows!