Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Muppets Threads! (And Anything Else) => Topic started by: Danneaux on September 11, 2012, 12:04:45 AM
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Hi All!
I'll step right out and make a bold (and likely foolish, as with most attempts to foretell the future) prediction:
I think remarkably soon, it will be difficult to get a non-powered bicycle. I think electronic aids will soon be ubiquitous on bicycles, whether in the form of Di2-like electronic shifting or in the form of assisted pedaling (pedalec). I think this is the Next Big Thing and Just Around the Corner. I think it will be Bigger than Index Shifting.
2012 was a disastrous year for European bike sales. The Euro's decline has meant less buying power in Asia, primary source for parts and frames for many of the brands sold on the Continent. At the same time, comsumers grew more wary of spending their hard-earned money on new bicycles if the old ones could limp along another year or two. The only market segment to show any real growth was the Pedelec, with greater refinement on OEM applications. Increasingly, it appears to me (Andre may well disagree, and he is better informed than I) hub motors are becoming the province of the retrofit and lower market price-points. The real future seems to be in BB-mounted assist units that keep the weight of the motor central and low to aid handling. The manufacturers have caught on to this, and Pedelecs of all stripes were a major feature of the most recent EuroBike show 29 August to 1 September of this year.
Like many people, I saw pedelecs as the almost exclusive province of the commuter and city/near-urban rider, given the limited range and need to recharge from a mains source of power.
That all changed with a recent effort from Bosch, who funded and supported a major self-supported tour of Mongolia on pedelecs that were recharged entirely by solar panels (a clever swiveling mount was used to maximize sun exposure of the solar cells). It really was a remarkable feat that is only now beginning to be appreciated for what it represents -- a shot squarely across the bow of solely human-powered touring and Expedition/Adventure touring.
Here are some relevant links detailing the effort:
http://www.bosch-ebike.de/media/ebike/dokumente/englisch/PI7864_Bosch_eBike_Systems_Pedelec_Adventures_E.pdf
http://www.tour-de-mongolia.com/
http://www.tour-de-mongolia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/pedelec-adventures.com_tour-de-mongolia_story_eurobike-show-daily-4_2012-08-31.pdf
http://mongoliaeconomy.blogspot.com/2012/08/mongolia-tour-puts-bosch-system-to-test.html
http://www.chinae-vehicle.com/index.php?c=news&a=view&id=492
http://www.bike-eu.com/Home/General/2012/8/Mongolia-Tour-Puts-Bosch-System-to-the-Test-1053881W/
I mean to take nothing away from the riders who did this. It was a hard, arduous task, and no small effort, thanks in part to the trailers needed to carry not only the necessary touring supplies, but also batteries and charging apparatus. It was a real expedtion, an incredible feat and they can take great pride in what I think will prove an historical accomplishment -- true, self-supported pedelec touring in an extremely remote area. The pedelec drivetrain just provided an assist. The bikes still included pedals and deraillerus and such, and required rider input to make forward progress.
Still...hypocritical as it sounds, I have mixed feelings about this. I suppose my attitude is similar to that of early Tour de France riders astride bikes with flip-flop hubs upon seeing early derailleur mechs. It seems almost like...well, not "cheating", exactly, but is an assisted effort equal to one that is solely human-powered? Is this the equivalent of "electric/electronic EPO"? Clearly, this is not competition where the playing field would be made unlevel, it is recreation and at a really demanding level. But would Shackleton's escape from an ice-bound Endurance have been as dramatic or heroic on snowmobiles instead of by sled-dog and -- finally -- sledges drawn by starving and depleted humans? Would the Iditarod be the same if it were mechanized? I used the word "hypocritical" at the start of this paragraph, and must admit it applies to myself. I use all sorts of mechanized aids to tour. For decades, it was the derailleur and triple cranks/touring blocks. Now, it is a Rohloff IGH, which is no small piece of engineering. Given that, why would I have any trouble with the idea of touring on a pedelec? Is it because it somehow seems less satisfying in a visceral Man (global use) Against Nature way? Does this go "too far" and mess with my idea of Adventure Touring as my own personal manifest destiny? I'm about 160 years too late to be an American sodbuster, a pioneer of the West, but I often think of them when I tour in the Great Basin and see and ride across the remains of their old steel-tired wagon ruts and past places with names that evoke the era. Do I really fear I'll go "soft" if touring adopts electric assist, or do I feel my efforts are threatened in some way? In truth, I have yet to figure it all out.
When I ran the Bosch story by several friends, they hastily dismissed it as a halfway effort, thanks to the battery assist, but I don't think that's entirely fair to the participants or the developers. When I showed it to friends less able to ride, they hailed it as a major milestone in terms of making touring accessible to all. Clearly, this will open touring to more people who could not otherwise engage in it at the same level as those without physical challenges. We'll all eventually get to the point where -- thanks to age, injury or disability -- electric assist looks pretty good compared to the alternative...especially if that alternative means a cessation of riding. What could be more wonderful and inclusive than sharing and opening and extending our joyful pursuit to others? Yet it is a double-edged sword; isn't there a danger this will become yet another shortcut for the able-bodied to avoid healthy exercise? In American society, obesity and related illness is a growing problem, and there are exhortations in print and electronic media to simply not sit the majority of time. Nevermind real exercise, the first goal is to get people to stand, leave the couch and television, and back away from the computer.
Too, in its evolution, the bicycle seems to be moving farther and farther from its most pure form; there is a reactionary backlash shown in the uptick in popularity of the Fixed Gear. Sometimes, I think it is the next logical step for former BMX riders who actually want to go somewhere. Other times, I think it embodies a genuine desire to re-embrace the bicycle in its seminal form. I have ridden Fixed and loved it; despite minimal overrides and concessions (maybe add a front brake?), there is no better way to feel intimately connected to this machine we love. If we project ahead and the bike becomes primarily electric...is it still a bicycle, or has it become a moped or even a small (electric) motorcycle, with pedals relegated to vestigial footrest duty?
I was amazed to see so many gas-powered scooters on bike paths in The Netherlands when I was there in 2008. I spoke of it to my friend's father, and he made the very good point that in a country that is bicycle-dependent, powered vehicles on the bike path are a fantastic way for older riders to stay in the mix. That might be, but why did the majority of scooter riders scorching through traffic with loud extractor/expansion chamber exhausts and governors removed seem to be in the supposedly fit, 16-24 year-old age cohort? I think there's something of the future in what I saw there in The Netherlands, and I wonder where we'll all be a decade from now. Will Thorn offer a touring pedelec with hub-motor assist and Rohloff? It's already a proven and very effective strategy for complete urban transport. If its siren call can wean even a few people from their cars, is that a bad thing? (I think not, given greater concerns about city/urban congestion and global warming).
So, what are your thoughts and responses to this little essay? Will all of us (except for true racers and those who wannabe) soon be riding a pedelec of one sort of another, or will true human power -- mechanically but not electronically assisted -- hold sway for the majority? Does it matter? Are we on the cusp of a sea change in what constitutes a bicycle, cycling, and touring? I'd love to hear your take on it all; thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts.
All the best,
Dan.
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Hi Dan
I think the political and regulatory response to mass pedelec uptake will be interesting and depend on how they are marketed/developed. Do you think we dare hope for a development path that pursues low cost, efficiency, ergonomics and practicality or will we get speed, power, aggressive styling and diminishing practical function? Hey! the latter sounds like motorcycling....
The lack of a licence requirement may have interesting outcomes for drink and drug user uptake.
Brilliant for the elderly and infirm. I hope they get them sorted before I can't manage the hills :)
Solah Mongolia! Fantastic!
Keep up the good work Dan.
Ian
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Increasingly, it appears to me (Andre may well disagree, and he is better informed than I) hub motors are becoming the province of the retrofit and lower market price-points. The real future seems to be in BB-mounted assist units that keep the weight of the motor central and low to aid handling.
i think you're probably right, Dan: am better informed than you. But in this instance I agree with you, the future does lie with Bosch's central motor or, more particularly, with its chinese and Chinese copies, which have already started to appear. I looked into the Bosch version (expensive) and the Chinese version (awkward, probably in most hands a guaranteed installation failure) and decided to fit the proven hub version.
Bosch, incidentally, has considerable lithium battery expertise; their 36V electric tool battery pack is big with the early adopters in pedelecs, especially the serious commuters and the speed- and power-freaks in the States.
However, I don't think you're right about the Di2. The Dura-Ace version is a travesty, and the full-auto Di2, complete with electronically controlled active suspension, the so-called Cyber-Nexus "Smover" gruppo, already failed in the market not once but several times. (I have one of those too, and it was superb, and cheap for what it was, and still it failed in the hands of Gazelle and Trek, and that's an almost insuperable marketing history. This is it: http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html )
But I don't think your future pedelec will look like the bicycles we know, which are inspired by racing bikes. There is no reason for a pedelec to look like a racing bike, and in particular no reason for it to be so tall. Future bikes will probably have a crank forward geometry, like the geri-bikes I built a few years ago as an experiment, so that the rider can put his feet flat on the ground without leaving the saddle, and the saddle will curve up at the back, at the very least, or have a proper back like a recumbent, to press against for leverage. Wheelbases will be longer, wheels will be smaller, geometries will be lazier, tyres will be fatter and, I hope, slick (unless overtaken by fashion, as currently).
I doubt any manufacturers of pedelecs except a thin margin at the very top will see the slightest need of a Rohloff gearbox or indeed a gearbox even as extravagant as a Nexus 8-speed. Most will be content with 3 or 5 speed IGH. (My electric motor has now inculcated a sneaking tendency to ride in 14th gear rather than 11th, and fill in the holes with the thumb throttle. I have consciously to fight the tendency. It's amazing how far 9Ah, nominal, will carry you even in my hilly terrain. I storm even up the nasty hill for which I bought both the Rohlof and the electric motor in the higher gears, hardly ever going down below 8th gear.)
Would the Iditarod be the same if it were mechanized?
As it happens, I spent 13 years researching the Iditarod for my novel IDITAROD a novel of The Greatest Race on Earth, going every year, and ran a half-Iditarod, six hundred miles behind my sled and dogs. (I was younger then...) The book is at http://coolmainpress.com/iditarod1.html and here is a party I throw every year in March at Iditarod time to which I'll invite y'all next year: http://coolmainpress.com/iditarod1012011.html In the righthand column of the latter page is a link to a free map of the race, showing how close to the Arctic Circle it is run. Or go to http://www.facebook.com/pages/Iditarod-a-novel-of-The-Greatest-Race-on-Earth/193084334057961 and scroll down to "Four time champion Jeff King,55, lies down in the snow to keep the wind off sick dogs" -- it's 50 degrees below freezing, with a thirty mile an hour wind, and the only shelter is his body. This is a race only for genuinely hard men — often won by even harder women.
(http://www.coolmainpress.com/miscimage/aliyzirkle.jpg)
Ally Zirkle, one of the hard women of the Iditord, leading the 2012 race; she finished second.
What most people don't grasp is that it isn't a musher (driver) race, or a sled race, it is a dog race. The very idea of mechanizing what makes the race unique is silly; the organizers would have to be stupid even to consider it, and they aren't. Anyway, they'd swing from lamp posts in Juneau and trees at points eastwards if they tried it; this is a race with a huge emotional commitment from participants and spectators alike.
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A great post as always, Andre.
You wrote......I don't think your future pedelect will look like the bicycles we know, which are inspired by racing bikes. There is no reason for a pedelec to look like a racing bike, and in particular no reason for it to be so tall. Future bikes will probably have a crank forward geometry, like the geri-bikes I built a few years ago as an experiment, so that the rider can put his feet flat on the ground without leaving the saddle, and the saddle will curve up at the back, at the very least, or have a proper back like a recumbent, to press against for leverage. Wheelbases will be longer, wheels will be smaller, geometries will be lazier, tyres will be fatter and, I hope, slick (unless overtaken by fashion, as currently).
Hmm. That description sounds a lot like a 2006/2007 Giant Revive, Andre! (see attached photo):
http://www2.giant-bicycles.com/en-us/bikes/lifestyle/941/28459/?collections_id=2
All the best,
Dan.
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Just back from a flat swap holiday to a small town in Zeeland, Netherlands. Wife and I explored the area on our exchange partners bikes.
They had a pedelec, but it was slightly too big for my wife, so she used their old sit-up-and-beg 3-speed. I was just able to get the saddle low enough for me to use the 65 cm frame man's bike. Both the bikes we used were considerably heavier than the ones we usually ride, but that didn't matter much as the area is completely flat apart from the short climbs for bridges and dykes.
Having already done an exchange to the suburbs of Amsterdam a few years ago we expected to see a lot of people on bikes. But this time we were amazed at the number of electric bikes. It seemed that about half the bikes we saw being used outside towns were electric-assist, and there were a lot of people cycling, most of them from the older sections of the population. Younger people would mostly have been at work or school.
Most of the electric bikes had front hub motors with an IGH hub on the back, often a Nexus 7 or 8. There were also a fair number with rear hub motors and derailleur gears, and a few with frame-mounted motors.
We also saw a couple of old bikes with very small petrol engines driving the rear wheel.
.
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You wrote...
Hmm. That description sounds a lot like a 2006/2007 Giant Revive, Andre! (see attached photo):
http://www2.giant-bicycles.com/en-us/bikes/lifestyle/941/28459/?collections_id=2
I had one of those briefly but wasn't convinced, and let it go to a man who offered me a good price beside the road. Sorry now.
An intermediate style that looks more like a bicycle is offered by the US light aircraft manufacturer RANS and has an enthusiastic following but I don't know how many bikes they sell, or whether they offer an electric version. http://rans.com/bicycles/crank-forward.html
Andre Jute
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I think that any development that reduces the size and weight of vehicles that people use for transport is a good thing whether this be from a road safety (for cyclists/ pedestrian), an enviromental view or even just to help clear the roads of traffic.
The fact that the bicycle is becoming a good base point for this vehicle due to its inherent strengths that we all love is a bit beside the point.
When out cycling my bicycle, I would see a person on a trike as more of a kindered spirit than somebody on an electric bicycle.
Having said that I think that an electric bicycle is a fantastic option, if the option is that or a car/bus.
I do think the one down side is that people who would have had to cycle (and thereby get some exercise) now have the option not to do that.
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Electric bicycles are all over Manhattan. I think they're mostly used for delivery. Even up here in the countryside I am seeing more electric bikes. One fellow about our little village has a recumbent trike with the batteries in a trailer.
I read an article a while back that said in New York State electric bicycles are not actually legal on the road. More a matter of not specifically permitted rather than explicitly forbidden. That's got to get resolved before too many decades roll by!
There are over 100 million electric bikes in China. Lots of them are folding. Perfect for the big crowded cities!
How about solar kiosks sprinkled about the city? Could be a bike locker, so you can secure your bike and have it plugged in, too. Plus the locker would keep the power connection secure, too.
Yeah, electric bikes are so practical, that has to be big.
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No one can charge me with being original!
http://www.ameribike.com/catalog/bike/solar/solar.html
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I do think the one down side is that people who would have had to cycle (and thereby get some exercise) now have the option not to do that.
Nearly all the people I saw on electric bikes in Zeeland were pedalling, so just getting less exercise per km travelled. But if they end up going further or more often than they would have with an ordinary bike, their exercise balance will be positive.
And in some cases I think it enables people who would otherwise had to give up cycling entirely enough reassurance to continue despite physical problems.
I compare it with my own use of my Brompton - by folding and using public transport I get less exercise than I would if I cycled the whole distance. But on most of those trips I am replacing a bus ride, taxi or car trip, so overall I actually end up getting more exercise, as well as usually saving time and/or money.
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overall I actually end up getting more exercise,
This paradox was first observed by Jeavons in the 19th Century, relating to coal. When coal-fired steam engines got more efficient, the use of coal actually increased - because the more efficient engines were economical for far more applications.
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Hi All!
Shimano are now entering the fray with their integrated StePs component group: http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/11/18/shimano-steps-into-electric-bikes-in-europe-only-for-now/#more-69575
Pedelec tourers are coming, mark my word.
Hmm. Now we just have to feed power from our dynohubs range extenders into our Pedelec batteries and we're set (not).
Best,
Dan. (...who predicts no one will want a truly "manual" touring bike in a decade's time -- perhaps less)
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Going back to Dan's original thesis: Central motors are probably the wave of the future. My doctor recently warned me not to fall of my bike and break something, so for the first time this autumn I've noticed how slick the roads are and how much torque my "Baby BPM" motor actually disposes of, and that the front wheel isn't the ideal place for so much torque.
All the same, with so many millions of bikes already in service and available for electrification, I think that front and rear hub motors for conversions will be very big for years to come.
Thing is, Shimano has the manufacturing and OEM marketing clout to make almost any group set they want amazingly cheaply. The recommended price of several of top bikes from brands that took the Smover set (the full auto gearbox with electronic adaptive suspension) was amazingly low. My Trek Smover retailed under 1500 Euro, and Royal Dutch Gazelle's Saphir started at 1075, made possible by fabulous Shimano OEM deals for the group set.
So, if Shimano is trying to build a market, I'd expect the prices for bikes by the manufacturers included in Shimano's OEM pedelec program to be very attractive to start with, and soon to fall to stunningly cheap.
Whether I would buy into it myself, hmm, that's another matter. I already have better in my electrified Utopia Kranich with its Rohloff gearbox. And, perhaps more to the point, I have experience of how fast-wearing Shimano lightweight Nexus group sets that came with Nexus internal hubs could be. I'm not going back to that. If the STEPS bits are no better quality than the Nexus drivetrains, it will be a high maintenance setup, requiring at least a new chain every 1000 miles and a new chainring and sprocket at the same time or at most every 2000m.
So, the two most important questions here are, "What quality is the drivetrain?" and "How accessible is the chainring?" After we discover that, we can proceed to be impressed by the geewhizzery of it.
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no one will want a truly "manual" touring bike in a decade's time
You may well be right, Dan, and no bad thing either. I've seen quite a few e-bikes in Ottawa, and there are probably many more in places like Vancouver, Montréal and Tronna. A Guardian article earlier this year argued that the real future of urban transport lay with the e-bike and not the e-car, citing the sale of 750,000 of these critters in Europe in 2012. Some of us bitter-einders, of course, will not go gently into the good night (mixing our cross-cultural metaphors as we do so), continuing to insist on our quaint & archaic muscle-powered machines. (Then again, in ten years' time--who knows? I might be glad of a boost on some of the steeper bits of the Canajan Shield.)
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My doctor recently warned me not to fall of my bike and break something, so for the first time this autumn I've noticed how slick the roads are and how much torque my "Baby BPM" motor actually disposes of, and that the front wheel isn't the ideal place for so much torque.
An answer for you - E-Mango (http://youtu.be/T_0bnOwgqis)
(http://www.hembrow.eu/personal/PC180003.JPG)
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Well Well,
E-Bike's or is that E-Motorcycles? ???
We at work get asked for E-Bike's every day!
Yes we can supply one to them BUT which One? the low cost $1500 NZ that will last them a year? or a OK one at $3500 NZ that goes OK and that will last a few year's?
NOTE: most E-Bikes are $500 Bikes with E-Motor's bolted in! just a Pain to work on and a Pain trying to STOP!
There are some very good E-Bike's that you have to pedal for the E-Motor to work, I have been lucky to test ride and they are COOL to ride the harder you Pedal the Faster you Go! Stop Pedaling and the E-Motor stops
:o
Here is one of the Best out there
(http://procyclingwarehouse.com/assets/TURBO-E-BIKE.jpg)
And here are a few Video's
http://youtu.be/UjbkfVamXcI (http://youtu.be/UjbkfVamXcI)
This is the Turbo out on the Road
'
http://youtu.be/-WnTIEZI1YY (http://youtu.be/-WnTIEZI1YY)
This is How a Lady can Win a Race with a Pro Rider when She Ride's A Turbo
http://youtu.be/UrSlrL3NizQ (http://youtu.be/UrSlrL3NizQ)
This is the Low Down on How the Turbo Work's
If I had the Cash I would Buy One for Myself!
Note the Turbo cost's $10,000 NZ in New Zealand!
A E-Motorbike cost's from $14,000 NZ ::)
Pete... 8)
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Hello all and sundry!
E bikes? Disgusting!
I would rather not cycle than use one.
I suffer with poor health but find the thought of using one an abomination.
Please hide the things, Governments please Tax and make riders take out road insurance.
These things are Mopeds and should be treated accordingly!
RANT OVER!
Best regards,
John
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An answer for you - E-Mango (http://youtu.be/T_0bnOwgqis)
(http://www.hembrow.eu/personal/PC180003.JPG)
Why, thanks! And in my favorite color too!
Actually, a few years ago before I had any need, I built some prototype geribikes out of laminated wood to see what was possible and desirable, discovered that the three main things for older cyclists were a low stepover, the ability to put your feet flat on the ground from the saddle, and a little assistance on the steeper hills. Knowing all that, I still bought a standard bike, just with a lower stepover, and later fitted a motor when I moved to the top of the steepest hill in town.
I don't think I'd rather not ride than ride with a motor. We'll wait until those who say so get there and then see what they do.
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E bikes?
I would rather not cycle than use one.
I suffer with poor health but find the thought of using one an abomination.
John
Hmm. I suffer with poor health but find the thought of giving up cycling an abomination. The only way I can now ride my bike is with an electric motor. I wish I didn't have to use one because it's a bit of a pain sometimes - but the alternative does not bear thinking about. For me anyway. Rant over.
To get back to your original post Dan; a couple of things strike me.
1. it will be difficult to get a non-powered bicycle. Soon? Nah. Depends upon your timescale of course, but I don't believe it will 'be difficult' for some time to come.
2. will you go 'soft'? Nah again. Can't imagine you going soft. And I can't see 'electric assist' posing a threat to your particular touring ambitions. What may pose such a threat though, is the ageing process and ill-health. Then you may well welcome the 'invisible hand in my back' that gets me up hills.
This is such an emotive subject and I really wish it wasn't. I see 'electric assist' (in all its guises) as a complementary technology rather than a replacement technology. Used appropriately it can change lives.
I'm really excited about the BB mounted units. While 'electrifying' my RT has got me back on the road, I wish the extra weight was lower done. My bike tips the bathroom scales at around 39kg, which isn't bad as these things go, but it can be awkward to manoeuvre.
Thanks for a thought-provoking essay.
ian
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To get back to your original post Dan; a couple of things strike me...
Full agreement with your statements, Ian.
As someone who endured a past spate of really poor health that resulted in a (thankfully inaccurate) fatal prognosis, I surely can see the value of electric assist when needed. I went from riding 13,000-19,000km every year like clockwork to being grateful almost to the point of tears when I could manage the occasional Tour de Neighborhood of several kms' duration -- and came home exhausted.
I'll never forget what it meant to just be *on* the bike at whatever level, and would still grab whatever means made that possible. No matter how one goes about it, it is still "getting out on the bike" in the weather, feeling the wind on one's face, and being more intimately "connected" with the bike than is possible in, say, a car.
I'll admit being a bit provocative in that first post to fuel discussion, but I'm amazed at how the e-bike variants have taken off in The Netherlands, for example. Reading their carefully compiled sales figures, it appears the e-bike was the salvation of manufacturers and retailers alike in recent years when all other bike sales fell off.
Having ridden Dutch paths, I feel the e-bike would be a far better solution than the small, noisy, smoky scooters that carve their way between human-powered cyclists and would fit *much* better in the cycling stream than the microcars I saw also using the paths (see attached; it is impossible to look good in photos with full-to-bursting jersey pockets :P ). When I mentioned dismay at seeing non-cycles on the fietspad, my touring partner's father reminded me there are often no real good alternatives for independent (non-mass transit) travel for those who are unable to cycle with ease, a view echoed by my friend's Oma (grandmother) who has given up cycling in her early 90s and whose walking range is understandably limited. e-Bikes were less available when we spoke in 2008, but she expressed an interest even then, and I can surely understand why. Unfortunately, the only example I saw at the time was a nasty thing in a local Aldi store, running a sprocket lagged onto the left-side spokes of the rear wheel and driven by a half-size chain. The current designs look much more developed and integrated, though quality surely varies as NZPete noted.
By the way, everyone I saw driving one of those micro-cars looked as if they really needed it, so I feel sure they are a tremendous boon to independent movement. All the ones I saw were operated very responsibly, unlike the scooters, which really upset the flow of fietspad traffic.1. it will be difficult to get a non-powered bicycle. Soon? Nah. Depends upon your timescale of course, but I don't believe it will 'be difficult' for some time to come.
<nods> I surely hope so. I've got a slew of old bikes now, and they're "obsolete: by current standards and already hard to find quality replacements for: 27" wheels and tires, 5- or 6-speed freewheels, 120mm OLN dropout spacing. Seeing how indexed shifting largely killed the friction market, I feared the same fate wrt human-powered bikes, but will be delighted if proved wrong. Part of this comes from a 'Merkin perspective where many people seem to prefer cars to exercise-oriented alternatives. I sometimes feel um, "misplaced" with my bicycle enthusiasm.2. will you go 'soft'? Nah again. Can't imagine you going soft. And I can't see 'electric assist' posing a threat to your particular touring ambitions.
It may have been fear of temptation that provoked my statement, Ian. I have to admit, I was grinding my way up into Nevada's Sheldon National Wildlife Refuge to avoid a duststorm and actively *wished* I had electric assist, and would have used it had it been available to winch the 50kg bike and my own 78kg uphill. 'Sure was hard to get an effective pedal start on the steep-loose surface (second attached below)And I can't see 'electric assist' posing a threat to your particular touring ambitions.
Truth be told, I sorta fear it might aid my touring ambitions. ;)What may pose such a threat though, is the ageing process and ill-health. Then you may well welcome the 'invisible hand in my back' that gets me up hills.
Surely. It is also worth noting that electric assist is just that -- an assist (the "invisible hand in your back"). One still gets to pedal.This is such an emotive subject and I really wish it wasn't. I see 'electric assist' (in all its guises) as a complementary technology rather than a replacement technology. Used appropriately it can change lives.
I understand, but also have seen able-bodied people here sometimes take the easy way out whenever possible. I park at the far end of a lot when I happen to drive the car to a store (prevents door dings) and hike in, but I seem to be very much the exception. It does seem to be an emotive subject, and that is a shame, really; the tent is big enough for all. Locally, the City Council is in the throes of soliciting public opinion on the desirability of allowing pedelecs and skateboards on the bike paths and in the bike lanes. Man! Talk about turf wars; the discourse ain't pretty.I'm really excited about the BB mounted units.
My love for all things bicycling is no surprise to anyone by this time, and I'm fascinated with e-bikes as well and am following developments keenly. Would I like one to play with? Sure! Send it to the following address.... ;D
Really enjoying the thoughtful and thought-provoking responses from all; thanks!
All the best,
Dan.
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Locally, the City Council is in the throes of soliciting public opinion on the desirability of allowing pedelecs and skateboards on the bike paths and in the bike lanes. Man! Talk about turf wars; the discourse ain't pretty.
Where I ride a pedelec (250W, automatic throttle) or PAB (200W, manual throttle) are both legally classed as bicycles on the roads. This means use on shared paths and bike paths is automatic. There is no turf war.
Skateboards really tend to be a kids' thing - rarely ever seen off the footpaths and skateparks. No-one gets too flustered if some kid does ride their skateboard along a shared path.
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Hi All,
If you had watched the last video I posted! (this one http://youtu.be/UrSlrL3NizQ (http://youtu.be/UrSlrL3NizQ))
You would see that the good E-Bikes are Not just motors to power you along! But if you push the pedals around at say 200watts the E-Motor can add up to 200watts! so you speed along with the power of 400watt's!
If you pedal hard @ say 250watts and E-Motor adds 250watts and your legs are like a Pro with 500watts going to the rear tyre.
Good E-Bike's Do Not have Throttle's! only the bad one's!
How the bad (low cost) are just a pain in the A_ _ !
I was a Motorcycle Mechanic for 30 plus years and i'm over any Motorcycle and most of the E-Bikes are just Motorcycle!
Pete....
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Hi All,
If you had watched the last video I posted! (this one http://youtu.be/UrSlrL3NizQ (http://youtu.be/UrSlrL3NizQ))
You would see that the good E-Bikes are Not just motors to power you along! But if you push the pedals around at say 200watts the E-Motor can add up to 200watts! so you speed along with the power of 400watt's!
If you pedal hard @ say 250watts and E-Motor adds 250watts and your legs are like a Pro with 500watts going to the rear tyre.
Not at all in Australia. The European standard has been adopted for pedelecs - 250W, automatic throttle and (I forgot to mention) power-assist cuts out at 25kmh. So no, you will not be speeding along like a pro at 40kmh with the motor assisting you.
Many of the more gung-ho PAB riders object to this as too low a speed for their needs :-\ They want a throttle to keep the power on.
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Well are you right or Wrong?
Who Care's?
In NZ the speed that the E-Motor cut's out is 32kph! the same in more parts of the US.
In Europe it's 48kph! :o
If you play around and make them go faster with the E-Motor then you are riding a Motorcycle with No Number plate's etc!
As I said only a few (the Good one's) add (up To) the same power that you put down to the pedals.
More part's of the World let E-Bike's have up to 750 watts of power so if You can push the Pedals around at 750 watt's then you get 750 watt's of power which = 1500 watt's of power at your back wheel.
Also the Turbo if you stop pedaling the E-Motor stop's! If you go over the speed (set for the part of the World that you live) the E-Motor cut's out and it's up to you to keep pedaling over that speed.
The bad E-Bike's are just Mopeds, and in need of a good fire ;)
Pete.....
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Supposed to be on the way to the market soon
Haibike (http://youtu.be/_S1GoeH8nFc)
*Edited for correct linky - oops!
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Correct URL here: http://www.haibike.de/en/Haibike-94,3115.html
Trekking models among them, here: http://www.haibike.de/index.php?seite=produkte_liste_epower_en&navigation=3009
They're comingggggg....
Best,
Dan. (...who really thinks they'll soon be mainstream)
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Have they got one with Rohloff ?? :D