Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => General Technical => Topic started by: Matt2matt2002 on June 21, 2024, 08:46:59 PM
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Dismounted this afternoon and the nose on my Brooks Flyer felt wobbly.
The shackle had shearer and the bolt was missing.
I caught half the sheared shackle. But it's beyond repair.
Replacement parts shown in attached pics.
Saddle had a good innings. Not sure how old it is but done me proud.
I'm away from home on tour on Orkney. Here for 3 more days
LBS might be open tomorrow
When I ride now, the nose stays down and bum feels fine.
Not sure if I should risk a longer ride.
Thoughts folks...
Matt
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Rotten luck but glad you didn't fall or get hurt, Matt; lucky it was noticed at a dismount.
You'll remember I have replaced some fractured saddle rails and re-riveted the cover to the rear cantle plate and nose insert.
Your repair is much easier and more straightforward and can be accomplished in moments. I fit the shackle and then run the tension pin through the shackle's holes, running the pin nut fully home to achieve as much slack as possible, then use the thin prybar much as one would a shoehorn (which would probably work as well, provided it is tempered steel) to slide the end of the tension pin onto the hole in the shackle. Tension to preference but don't overdo it. Older saddles can sometimes run a bit dry and it is easy to create a tension fracture/tear in the leather if one is overenthusiastic.
As for continuing your ride on a known-broken Brooks...
It is of course up to you and your risk valence. The tension pin and shackle do, after all, tension the saddle's leather cover. I'd be concerned it could get swaybacked to an untoward degree if ridden untensioned.
A cable tie or such won't help in this case because you need to push the nose away rather than drawing it nearer. It is not terribly difficult to form and machine substitute parts that would get you by, but I don't see much chance of that on Orkney. Don't know how close you are to Kirkwall, but it seems there are a number of shops and services devoted to repairs there who might be able to help in a pinch. Alternatively, there appears to be a cycle hire shop -- Cycle Orkney, also in Kirkwall -- that has bikes and accessories for sale and possibly does repairs. I'd be inclined to see if they might have a cheap "get you by" saddle so you can save your beloved Brooks for a proper repair at your leisure.
Wishing you well, Dan.
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Thanks Dan.
Shackle has broken in 2. I only have one small part of it.
Pin was lost when break occurred.
I'll visit the one and only bike shop at 0900 or 0930 when he opens..
I do have another Brooks at home and may be able to use some of its parts.
Weather is good here and riding generally flat so I may pootle about on it for the rest of my time here.
Thanks again
Matt
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When the end of the bolt sheared off on my saddle as a temporary fix I used a 5/16" BSF nut.
Maybe the LBS has a suitable threaded bolt they could use as a get you home fix?
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Thanks folks LBS knew their way around a Brooks but could only bodge the fix. We discussed what was required and they pointed out that the shackle I had kept, was not broken. The bolt is lost so that is the part I'll need to buy.
I can ride with the present set up but due to there being no tension, I'm sitting on the rails.
The leather is holding up but I'm keeping to short journeys and weight on the pedals as much as possible.
I have 2 more days here and visiting the nearby islands. Shapinsay today.
Sanday tomorrow. Westray yesterday.
Good cycling here. Roads excellent and just a few long rolling hills. I think I'll miss out Rousay where there are a few hills to tackle.
Enjoyed good weather and met some interesting cyclists. Transylvanian, Russian, Italian and English.
Thanks again folks. Fantastic to receive so much knowledgeable help and support from our community.
Matt
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The saddle as fixed today.
No charge but I put something in the tea kitty.
A cap protects the end of the bolt. Underneath is a zip plastic piece. Very temporary but should get me home.
Perhaps my other Brooks saddle will give up a piece.
Matt
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I think I would run a hacksaw through the bolt along the front edge of the nut. It might stop a nasty accident!
Glad the LBS sorted it out for you - worth saying who they are?
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Ha ha. Yes, Mr. Hacksaw will be in action as soon as home.
Only one bike shop of note in Kirkwall. Others hirer out electric bikes and then there is Halfords.
The one that helped me today:
Father and son I believe but could be wrong.
01856 850255
Cycle Orkney
Tankerness Ln, Kirkwall KW15 1AQ
They also dabble in Warhammer but I didn't ask about that service!
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Glad that you can finish your trip, but don't let the health and safety people see that patch job!
Fitting a new tension pin is an art that I had have not mastered. When I did mine I think I used four small screwdrivers and the help of a friend to finesse it on.
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Thanks RonS
I ordered the pin last night from Brooks.
I may well contact you for further advice on fitting it.
Cheers from Sanday today.
I'm island hopping from Kirkwall and don't ride too far when I land.
Certainly feeling those rails beneath the leather!
Cheers
Matt
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Certainly feeling those rails beneath the leather!
Cheers
Matt
Bad luck with the saddle, hope it hasn't detracted from the trip too much. my only visit turned int a tour with bike rather than the intended bike tour, due to the weather. Still enjoyed it, though I'd like to go back and do the bits missed.
When the nose bolt on my saddle broke, half way round a long day ride, I stuffed my spare gloves between leather and rails, made it bearable for the ride home. Wouldn't have to be gloves, that's all I had apart from rain jacket and didn't want to risk damaging that.
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Good advice Ph. My day trips around the small islands aren't more than 25 miles so it's barrable. Just. I had thought of stuffing something soft between the leather and rails but I think I'll get by.
I think I started the tour thread by saying that the Raven was in tip top condition?
How could I have checked for this?
What's that saying? For want of a nail a shoe was lost. For want to a shoe......
Off home tomorrow so nothing really lost. Maybe I'd have cycled further but my aim was to hit the islands and I've done that.
Cheers
Matt
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I think I started the tour thread by saying that the Raven was in tip top condition?
How could I have checked for this?
I think it's just bad luck. Mine broke on a three year old saddle and I spent the next ten years carrying around a spare bolt for when it happened again, of course it never did...
What can you do? I think you've already done it - That is accepting such things happen and not letting them spoil your trip.
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I just called Brooks to confirm my order for the new part. No-one there just a recorded message saying the company were on their annual holiday for 2 weeks. No dates given so it could be 2 weeks from today or a week from today.
Web site doesn't mention holidays or being shut.
Poor service?
Last day here on Orkney and managed 30 miles on the 'rails'.
Reminded me of an interview I saw a few years ago with Peter Fonda. He mentioned that the choppers they rode had no rear suspension. I now know how he felt!
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I like my B17 and also liked my Conquest ( despite snapping two seat post bolts ) but it does make one wonder if there are modern, better alternatives around. I used a Sella SMP Trek for my SW crossing of Spain and Portugal last year. Apart from being a bit sweaty it was pretty comfortable and didn't need a rainhood. Hmm, makes me think.
This from ChatGPT:
If you're looking for an alternative to the Brooks B17 saddle, here are a few options that offer a similar level of comfort and quality:
1. **Selle Anatomica X Series**: Known for its leather construction like the Brooks B17, the Selle Anatomica X Series offers excellent comfort with a unique slot down the center to provide extra flexibility and pressure relief.
2. **Berthoud Cycles Aravis**: This is another high-quality leather saddle that is often compared to the Brooks B17. Berthoud saddles are handmade in France and offer a combination of comfort and durability.
3. **Selle Italia Flite 1990**: If you're looking for a non-leather option, the Selle Italia Flite 1990 is a classic choice with a loyal following. It's known for being lightweight and comfortable for long rides.
4. **Fizik Aliante Gamma**: This saddle is designed for comfort and performance. It features a curved profile and uses modern materials, providing a different feel compared to leather saddles but with excellent support.
5. **C13 Cambium by Brooks**: If you like the Brooks brand but want something different from the B17, the Cambium series is worth considering. The C13 is made from vulcanized natural rubber and organic cotton canvas, providing a maintenance-free option that still offers a comfortable ride.
Each of these alternatives has its unique features and benefits, so the best choice will depend on your specific preferences and riding style.
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I just called Brooks to confirm my order for the new part. No-one there just a recorded message saying the company were on their annual holiday for 2 weeks. No dates given so it could be 2 weeks from today or a week from today.
Web site doesn't mention holidays or being shut.
Poor service?
A bit late now that you've placed your order but Spa Cycles also sell the bolt https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m18b0s144p4550/BROOKS-64mm-Tension-Bolt.
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Thanks JohnR
Just a minute ago I received an email from customer service ( despite being closed for 2 weeks) saying my order has been declined.
When completing my order address I had added Ireland to the final line.
Apparently Brooks can't ship outside the EU. They said I'd receive a full refund.
I'll certainly look at the link to SPa that you gave me.
Much appreciated
Cheers Matt
From the ferry from Orkney to Aberdeen.
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TRIVIA:
I know a fellow who welded extra length into the hammock tension bolt for his Brooks saddle. So a broken bolt can possibly be repaired good as new, depending on where it broke, if one could find a highly skilled welder. The fellow who did it was Boeing tool designer and maker, by definition highly skilled. Not suggesting it, though; too risky, especially considering how little it costs to get a new bolt.
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A bit late now that you've placed your order but Spa Cycles also sell the bolt https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m18b0s144p4550/BROOKS-64mm-Tension-Bolt.
£7.50 for a bolt!!!
I may be showing my age but i think that was about the price of my first Brooks and I considered that an investment.
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A bit late now that you've placed your order but Spa Cycles also sell the bolt https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m18b0s144p4550/BROOKS-64mm-Tension-Bolt.
£7.50 for a bolt!!!
I may be showing my age but i think that was about the price of my first Brooks and I considered that an investment.
Best not look at the prices for new Brooks saddles now.
Many £140+
Frightening.
( inc postage it's £12.50 )
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I just called Brooks to confirm my order for the new part. No-one there just a recorded message saying the company were on their annual holiday for 2 weeks. No dates given so it could be 2 weeks from today or a week from today.
Web site doesn't mention holidays or being shut.
Poor service?
A bit late now that you've placed your order but Spa Cycles also sell the bolt https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m18b0s144p4550/BROOKS-64mm-Tension-Bolt.
Postage £5?!!
SJSC also sell the bolt for a bit more but their basic postage is normally £3.50 so you might save especially if you’ve got other stuff you want from Thorn 🙂
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I just called Brooks to confirm my order for the new part. No-one there just a recorded message saying the company were on their annual holiday for 2 weeks. No dates given so it could be 2 weeks from today or a week from today.
Web site doesn't mention holidays or being shut.
Poor service?
A bit late now that you've placed your order but Spa Cycles also sell the bolt https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m18b0s144p4550/BROOKS-64mm-Tension-Bolt.
Postage £5?!!
SJSC also sell the bolt for a bit more but their basic postage is normally £3.50 so you might save especially if you’ve got other stuff you want from Thorn 🙂
Argh! Just placed the order with Spa.
Good info though, so thanks.
Matt
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It is not a bolt, it is a specially made part. ‘Mass produced’ probably in a batch of hundreds, not millions.
It would not post as a letter as it would be too thick, so it would be sent as a small parcel, hence the postage cost. Which would include someone spending the time to wrap it up and take it to the post office.
Personally I like spare parts to be available - which means someone has to make a profit in supplying them - not much profit in this part but thankfully it was available.
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Best not look at the prices for new Brooks saddles now.
Many £140+
Frightening.
( inc postage it's £12.50 )
Yes prices jumped when they were bought by Sella, they used to just be a good saddle, not a fashion accessory. That isn't really a criticism, it's unlikely they would have survived without the takeover and change of image. When my bolt broke, I rang customer services in Birmingham and they sent me two.
I'm now on the Cambium C17's, the early models of these failed quite rapidly, though Brooks were good for replacements and quickly improved them. They're not for everyone, two of my four were bought lightly used secondhand from riders who didn't get on with them.
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Many thanks folks.
New tension pin arrived from Spa yesterday and fitted today with aid from a You-tube video.
The pin fitted in easily since the leather was so loose.
Pictures to follow.
BTW, I had been using my old spare Brooks ( B17 - £145 new ! ) and hardly noticed the difference. At one point I thought I'd keep it on.....
I'm tempted to order and carry a spare pin. That way I know I'll never need it !!!!
Matt
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Glad that’s sorted for you pre-Thailand Matt.
I was wondering if tension and or proofide had played a part at all?
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Glad that’s sorted for you pre-Thailand Matt.
I was wondering if tension and or proofide had played a part at all?
Not sure of the cause. I was pleasantly bubbling along on Westray an island of Orkney mainland and suddenly things definitely didn't feel right saddle wise.
As I dismounted the tension bolt clip fell out onto the sand. The bolt was nowhere to be seen. Very strange.
I spent half an hour trying to work out what happened when. And searching the ground.
I had a ferry to catch back to Kirkwall so didn't spend as long as I would have liked looking around.
With no tension, I was sitting on the rails; not pleasant.it was a Friday, so popped into the LBS on Saturday. They said they could bodge it to get me through my short tour and that's what they did.
Excellent service.
Back to your question; I do proof the saddle on a regular basis and the tension looked ok before I set off.
So maybe it was old age. I must have used it for 9+ years on all my tours. Not sure of their ' life'.
Maybe I had over tensioned it?
Matt
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Had the same thing happen to my B17 Special a few years back. The replacement bolt was easier to fit than I had expected. I'm sure that I heard that they tend to break due to not being sufficiently tensioned.
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I have looked in the past and did so again today for anything on how tight the adjuster nut should be and even the Brooks YT video does not really give any guidance. It must certainly not be loose, but I was hoping that there might be some guidance from Brooks saying something like ‘tighten adjuster nut until bolt is snug, then tighten 1 turn more’. Or 2 turns more…..
A year or so ago the adjuster nut on my Brooks Conquest kept coming loose and when I removed the bolt I could see that the bolt threads were badly worn from the metal of the saddle above the bolt resting on it behind the clip. This wear was behind the loaded area of the bolt so would not have made it fail but it was putting load onto the bolt in a way it was not designed for. I think this was happening when the adjustment became loose. Maybe that is what happened to Matt’s saddle?
On the new bolt I added an extra nut that I use as a locknut against the adjuster nut - and looking at it today the bolt has no wear and the metal frame of the seat does not touch it.
I also occasionally lubricate the front end of the bolt as it must move a little in the nose of the saddle.
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I have looked in the past and did so again today for anything on how tight the adjuster nut should be and even the Brooks YT video does not really give any guidance.
The question isn't really how tight the adjuster nut must be but how tight the leather hammock is drawn. I don't have a reference (my default is to say, "Sheldon Brown!") but my memory and practice is "Factory tight, and not more than a quarter turn of the nut in any year, and don't mess around with it if not necessary." It is definitely possible to overstretch the leather -- and who knows whether the modern leather is as good as the forever leather of childhood memories of Brooks saddles with years of hard wear soldiering on into the generations.
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...My memory and practice is...
Your memory and practice square with mine, Andre.
I've seen some Brooks saddles where the nose of the saddle literally tore off from overenthusiastic tensioning. They all parted around the lower side nose rivets. At the other end, I've seen saddles so slack (especially after being ridden while wet) as to "ride on the rails", so what you describe would seem to be Brooks' happy medium. I follow similar practice myself.
Best, Dan.
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Agreed Both, it is the tension of the leather that is important, but how to gauge it? The Brooks YT video simply has the guy pushing down on the saddle with his palm to get the ‘right’ tension. And of course the tension in a sprung saddle is more difficult to feel.
After having the adjuster nut loosening on my Conquest and then fitting a new tensioning assembly I am afraid the factory setting on mine is long gone. While I am pretty happy with the tension I have set I was just hoping there might be something more scientific like ‘from bolt snug add (x) turns of adjuster nut’ as this extension would translate to tension in the leather.
Edited to add:
Sheldon Brown’s advice is to leave the adjusting bolt well alone and to add lacing across the saddle if the leather starts to sag!
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Agreed Both, it is the tension of the leather that is important, but how to gauge it? The Brooks YT video simply has the guy pushing down on the saddle with his palm to get the ‘right’ tension. And of course the tension in a sprung saddle is more difficult to feel.
There's never going to be a precise level of tension, firstly there's a lot of variation in the leather, X tension on the bolt doesn't mean Y flex in the leather. Then we might all have different preferences, I see people riding around on floppy hammocks compared to the tension I like. Pressing down with your hand might be a good enough measure, though I fond just riding it would let me know when it needed a quarter turn.
Anyway, this reminds me of another reason I'm glad to be off the leather and onto the maintenance free rubber saddles. Not for everyone, but for me they're 95% comfort for 100% of the time, rather than 100% comfort for 70% of the time.