Thorn Cycles Forum

Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: KDean on August 28, 2022, 10:27:17 PM

Title: Surly Ogre
Post by: KDean on August 28, 2022, 10:27:17 PM
Has anyone had this bike ? How does it compare to a Nomad ?
Title: Re: Surly Ogre
Post by: PH on August 28, 2022, 11:19:06 PM
Yes.
It's a bit heavier.
I could give you a detailed review if you like, but as the above fact is usually high on your list, I'd be surprised if you wanted any more.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52241320115_828037a487_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nAoqpM)Ogre (https://flic.kr/p/2nAoqpM)
Title: Re: Surly Ogre
Post by: CycleTourer on August 29, 2022, 11:44:23 AM
The Ogre frame has some downsides compared to the Nomad Mk3 frame. For example, Surly doesn't close the holes in the tubes that let out gas during the welding process, so water could get in.

Also, the chain-tensioning on the Ogre requires the Surly Tuggnut, and ideally two of those heavy and expensive items if you are installing the QR version of the Rohloff instead of the axle-nut version. Furthermore, the right seatstay on the Ogre has no splitter to allow a belt drive.

One upside of the Ogre in today’s world where many cyclists are doing bikepacking, is that the Ogre fork has three places for holders on each side. The Nomad Mk3 bikepacking fork only accommodates one holder on either side.
Title: Re: Surly Ogre
Post by: KDean on August 29, 2022, 04:53:46 PM
Quote from: PH on August 28, 2022, 11:19:06 PM
Yes.
It's a bit heavier.
I could give you a detailed review if you like, but as the above fact is usually high on your list, I'd be surprised if you wanted any more.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52241320115_828037a487_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nAoqpM)Ogre (https://flic.kr/p/2nAoqpM)
. I was told it's lighter my Nomad  is 17kg & the new Ogre is 14.2 kg ?
Title: Re: Surly Ogre
Post by: PH on August 29, 2022, 06:09:23 PM
Quote from: KDean on August 29, 2022, 04:53:46 PM
I was told it's lighter my Nomad  is 17kg & the new Ogre is 14.2 kg ?
Both of those can be true. But not if you compare like with like. You could build a 14.2kg Nomad or a 17kg Ogre.
I've just swapped the Ogre for a Nomad, here it is
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52269241411_5783c67a63_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nCRwrr)IMG_20220807_124312 (https://flic.kr/p/2nCRwrr)

Most of the stuff swapped straight over, mudguards are new, stem is longer, same model of tyres but 40mm instead of 2".
I also have some new digital luggage scales, tested with some known weights and more accurate at these weights than using the bathroom scales.
Ogre (XL) 16.7kg
Nomad (61L) 15.8kg - I included the unfitted light, but haven't subtracted the bit to come off the steerer. Unlike the photos - weighed with the same pedals.

Half that difference is the tyres and tubes, but the Ogre is designed around bigger tyres, I tried it with the 40mm's and it wasn't pleasant.

Weight and the peripheral differences CycleTourer highlights aside, they're quite different bikes.  They ride different, sure there's plenty of overlap, the Ogre a better bike off road, the Nomad better on, you could do the same rides on either, though the choice of which is better would depend on your use.

But if your objective is a lighter bike, for when you have to lift it, this isn't it. I may have said this once or twice before - The weight difference between steel touring bikes is minimal, a few 100g's at most, the rest is in the build.
Title: Re: Surly Ogre
Post by: KDean on August 29, 2022, 08:00:51 PM
Thank you very much for taking the time for the info , The Shand Tam looks like a good  option & Standforth is local to me ,I wonder if there is a lighter version of the Ryde Andra rims ?
Title: Re: Surly Ogre
Post by: PH on August 29, 2022, 08:29:31 PM
Quote from: KDean on August 29, 2022, 08:00:51 PM
Thank you very much for taking the time for the info , The Shand Tam looks like a good  option & Standforth is local to me ,I wonder if there is a lighter version of the Ryde Andra rims ?
You're welcome.
I've just replied to another post of yours, we seem to be having the same conversation across several threads.
Shand bikes look nice, I considered a different model before getting a Mercury, but the Thorn geometry suited me better.  They custom build so maybe you could get something a bit lighter, but the stock build won't be significantly so, they're still building that model as an expedition tourer, though Reynolds 853 will be a gauge thinner than Thorn's 969.
Standforth?  Not one I heard of unless you meant Stanforth?  If the latter, the couple of bikes I've seen from them have been gorgeous, well worth having a chat with, though again I'd be surprised if there was a significant weight saving. The Kibo expedition model isn't hugely dissimilar to a Nomad and the Conway frameset (Non Rohloff, though they could probably do one) is similar to a Mercury.
Rims - Yes if you decide you don't need bombproof there's considerable savings to be made. I went for the Ryde 321's with are 180g each lighter than the Andra 30's.  If I hadn't originally built them for the Ogre, I'd probably have used DT Swiss which are another 100g each lighter.


Title: Re: Surly Ogre
Post by: KDean on August 29, 2022, 10:51:36 PM
Yes Stanforth , I like the fact they build a frame to suite .
Title: Re: Surly Ogre
Post by: KDean on August 30, 2022, 10:59:47 AM
My thinking behind the Ogre is that the Disc wheels are very easy to take off compared to the rim brake front wheel I have on my Nomad making it a lot easier to lift onto my Van rack & assemble. The Stans no tube rims  are half the weight of the Andra rims .
Title: Re: Surly Ogre
Post by: PH on August 30, 2022, 08:58:33 PM
Quote from: KDean on August 30, 2022, 10:59:47 AM
My thinking behind the Ogre is that the Disc wheels are very easy to take off compared to the rim brake front wheel I have on my Nomad making it a lot easier to lift onto my Van rack & assemble. The Stans no tube rims  are half the weight of the Andra rims .
You've brought this front wheel issue up before, is it the tyre too wide to get between the blocks?  It ought not to be a problem with most tyres and brakes.
The rear wheel removal is easier with a Thorn than a Ogre, not that it's hard, it just takes a bit more effort.  You have to move the wheel a smidge forward to unhook the chain before sliding it back.  If you have mudguards, you also have to negotiate the wheel past them, I like mine fairly close fitting, which means the wheel doesn't fit unless the tyre is deflated. Also note that with sliding dropouts, you have to reposition the brake and the Rohloff Torque plate retaining nut whenever you tension the chain, this isn't a big deal, it just lacks the simplicity of an EBB.
I'm assuming your Nomad is 26" wheel?  What size were you thinking of for an Ogre? Be careful you make a proper comparison of the weights, wheels, tyres and tubes, the larger size has to eat up some of the potential savings.  Would you be better of looking for a Troll and keeping the wheel size?  I know they've been discontinued, but there's a few still in stock, or there's always secondhand (Though you want one of the more recent ones) I've never ridden one, but from what i understand the differences between the Troll and Ogre are mostly wheel size.  But again, sorry, the weight difference is going to be slight and I wouldn't know which is lighter.
Title: Re: Surly Ogre
Post by: KDean on August 31, 2022, 01:03:21 AM
Yes I was using a 2.4" on the front ,& had to let the tyre down , the rear had a disc & wasn't a problem .I might look at Stan's no tube rims as they are half the weight of the Andra ,but I'm I'm going to see what can be built around the Ogre frame with various components & also see what Stanforth come up with .I like a larger wheel for the long rides I do .
Title: Re: Surly Ogre
Post by: DIAGMONKEY on October 16, 2022, 09:20:39 AM
PH How does the Nomad compare to the Mercury in terms of feel and ride comfort?

Ta!
Title: Re: Surly Ogre
Post by: PH on October 16, 2022, 11:29:34 PM
Quote from: DIAGMONKEY on October 16, 2022, 09:20:39 AM
PH How does the Nomad compare to the Mercury in terms of feel and ride comfort?

Ta!
A bit early for a definitive answer, the Nomad is currently on 400 miles, no ride over 50 miles and no camping yet.  Initial impressions are that they're what you'd expect:
Unloaded the Mercury feels sharper and livelier, more comfortable, I don't like loading it up, even a pannier of shopping can make it feel like the tail is wagging the dog. Loaded the Nomad is as steady as a rock, but it loses a bit of comfort unloaded and the higher BB does give a feeling of sat on, rather than in. There is a large overlap between the bikes, many of my rides could be done on either, though I knew that before I got the Nomad.
I can only talk about my experience with my bikes, I'm 95kg and ride a 610L, other people's experience and bikes are likely to be different. I think my Nomad is going to prove itself a better all rounder, the Mercury is likely to remain my favorite. I haven't ruled out changing the Nomad to 650B wheels, though I have about 10.000 miles worth of tyres to wear out before making that decision. 
Title: Re: Surly Ogre
Post by: PH on October 16, 2022, 11:33:28 PM
Quote from: CycleTourer on August 29, 2022, 11:44:23 AM
The Ogre frame has some downsides compared to the Nomad Mk3 frame. For example, Surly doesn't close the holes in the tubes that let out gas during the welding process, so water could get in.
A bit late to influence the OP, but having just noticed this I'll point out that the Nomad also has some unsealed vent holes.
Title: Re: Surly Ogre
Post by: CycleTourer on October 17, 2022, 04:49:27 AM
Quote from: PH on October 16, 2022, 11:33:28 PM
A bit late to influence the OP, but having just noticed this I'll point out that the Nomad also has some unsealed vent holes.

On the Nomad Mk3? I am currently a few hundred km from my own, so I can’t check. But I remember when I got the Nomad Mk3 frame and began building up a bike, I didn’t notice the same holes as on the Surly frame I had built up for someone just before.
Title: Re: Surly Ogre
Post by: PH on October 17, 2022, 01:23:00 PM
Quote from: CycleTourer on October 17, 2022, 04:49:27 AM
Quote from: PH on October 16, 2022, 11:33:28 PM
A bit late to influence the OP, but having just noticed this I'll point out that the Nomad also has some unsealed vent holes.

On the Nomad Mk3? I am currently a few hundred km from my own, so I can’t check. But I remember when I got the Nomad Mk3 frame and began building up a bike, I didn’t notice the same holes as on the Surly frame I had built up for someone just before.
Yes, chainstay and seatstay, I don't think it's a big deal, easy to cover them up if you did, I certainly wouldn't consider it a factor in choosing a frame.  If like me you squirt stuff inside the frame periodically, it makes that easier, so could be seen as a feature!
Title: Re: Surly Ogre
Post by: DIAGMONKEY on October 17, 2022, 07:21:22 PM

[/quote]
A bit early for a definitive answer, the Nomad is currently on 400 miles, no ride over 50 miles and no camping yet.  Initial impressions are that they're what you'd expect:
Unloaded the Mercury feels sharper and livelier, more comfortable, I don't like loading it up, even a pannier of shopping can make it feel like the tail is wagging the dog. Loaded the Nomad is as steady as a rock, but it loses a bit of comfort unloaded and the higher BB does give a feeling of sat on, rather than in. There is a large overlap between the bikes, many of my rides could be done on either, though I knew that before I got the Nomad.
I can only talk about my experience with my bikes, I'm 95kg and ride a 610L, other people's experience and bikes are likely to be different. I think my Nomad is going to prove itself a better all rounder, the Mercury is likely to remain my favorite. I haven't ruled out changing the Nomad to 650B wheels, though I have about 10.000 miles worth of tyres to wear out before making that decision.
[/quote]

Thank you. Makes sense. much appreciated.
Title: Re: Surly Ogre
Post by: il padrone on October 18, 2022, 03:23:54 AM
Quote from: PH on October 16, 2022, 11:33:28 PM
Quote from: CycleTourer on August 29, 2022, 11:44:23 AM
The Ogre frame has some downsides compared to the Nomad Mk3 frame. For example, Surly doesn't close the holes in the tubes that let out gas during the welding process, so water could get in.
A bit late to influence the OP, but having just noticed this I'll point out that the Nomad also has some unsealed vent holes.

On my Nomad Mk2 there are no vent holes in any tubes. One of Thorn's great claims with the Mk2 was that all vent holes were sealed over with braze.  Only frame hole is the mounting hole for the rear mudguard at the BB bridge, which I have plugged with the bolt holding the mudguard.
Title: Re: Surly Ogre
Post by: KDean on May 25, 2023, 07:35:29 AM

Thank
Rims - Yes if you decide you don't need bombproof there's considerable savings to be made. I went for the Ryde 321's with are 180g each lighter than the Andra 30's.  If I hadn't originally built them for the Ogre, I'd probably have used DT Swiss which are another 100g each lighter.
[/quote] I stripped my Nomad down (620L ) & up you are correct the biggest weight difference are the wheels , I had Schwable Moto X tyres 2.4" .I think the build quality on my Nomad is better .My Orge has 29x 2.35 Vittoria tyres with Stan's no tube rims .To match the match the weight with the tyre width I like I'd be looking at Velocity cliff hanger rims with Vittoria tyres.Going back to Dureme tyres only makes it 2lbs heavier but I'm not sure on the tread for the type of cycling I do .
Title: Re: Surly Ogre
Post by: PH on May 25, 2023, 08:36:24 AM
Quote from: KDean on May 25, 2023, 07:35:29 AM
I stripped my Nomad down (620L ) & up you are correct the biggest weight difference are the wheels
Thanks for confirming that, I was beginning to wonder if I'd somehow managed to get either a lighter Nomad or a heavier Ogre than anyone else!
Do you know the wheel and tyre weight differences?  They can vary a fair amount, but not IMO as much as the tyres. since the photo above, my Nomad has transitioned to 650B and gained 600g, I'm undecided if it was a good idea!
Title: Re: Surly Ogre
Post by: KDean on May 25, 2023, 02:01:27 PM
The difference between the the wheel sets fitted with Duremes & the heavier  Schwable Moto X That I was using  x  is 2.5 lbs . If you wanted a MTB tyre the  Maxxis Ikon 2.2  would only add .5lb compared to the Duremes . If you wanted to go Tubeless using Velocity cliffhanger rims & 2.25" Vittoria tyres that would be  1lb lighter than the Dureme set up & obviously a bigger tyre.